This is why heaters fail.

[daninthesand]

Hi Gang.

I was really bored today. So I took apart a couple heaters. It happened to be a newer EBO and an older green ebo. I wanted to compare them.

But I was interested in more than that. I wanted to get a close look at the contacts. These little guys open and close every time your heater goes on or off. And they wear out. They can wear out in two ways.

First, they can start wearing away, in which case the distance between them is increased causing the set temperature to wander from the actual temperature reached. Because they are farther apart, it takes more pressure on the adjusting screw to bring them together. Thats why using the blue button (on the newer style) to re-calibrate them works. (I've detailed that procedure on another post)

Then there is the second, and more catastrophic way. They can get stuck together in which case the heater does not shut off. (cooked fish) These contacts open and close an electrical circuit so there is current passing between them. It is this current which causes them to "weld" together.

Below you will see two sets of contacts. Set A-B are from a newer (and still functioning) heater. The 1-2 set is from an old green ebo that had stuck on. (I caught it before any fish frying took place)

[daninthesand]

Here we see a detail of the still working set. These contact points have been in use less than 3 months and they already show some wear.

[daninthesand]

This next photo is of the old set that had welded together. They are clearly well worn and have become useless. I will try and repair them. I used to repair the ignition points on my old camaro with a soldering iron when I had less than two pennies to rub together. I'll use silver solder and see how it goes.

This is not meant to bash the EBO name. I just bought 4 more ebo's the other day. I have no complaints since you get what you pay for and the price on mail-order EBO's is great! I think ANY heater with this design (mechanical contact points) will be just as prone to failure. These points are not a whole lot different that the ones I've seen on older vehicles. And you can't get a camaro for 14.99 from an online fish store! Probably explains why all cars have electronic points these dyas. I have tronics (electronic points) which have never failed in the year or so I've had them.

Just though some of you might find this interesting.

Daniel

btw, I have more than two pennies to rub together now, but I have a lot of time on my hands. ;)

[darcy]

LOL Dan you must have time on your hands!! Great post keep em comin!!!!
As for the Tronics I bought some once and they would not heat past 82??? I tried 4 or 5 from different LFS and all the same. Bad batch maybe, I dunno. All I have are Ebo's and have only 2 fail on me both would not heat!! For me EBO works fine.
Darcy

[daninthesand]

I have to admit I am using my tronics in tanks in which I keep adult discus or angels. I keep the temp 82 or less. I keep buying ebos because i like the price. ;D

[daninthesand]

I repaired the points and reassembled the Ebo. I can shut it on and off with the dial. It is in a bucket and so far the temp is 84. I have the temp set at "8.5" (that's how the old green ebo's were calibrated.)
I'll let you know.... ???

[daninthesand]

the temp was 88 when the heater shut off. so far so good!

[acorn54]

i don't trust any heater regardless of reputation
one fail safe way to prevent your discus from getting cooked from a faulty heater is everytime you feed your discus put your hand in the tank water to check temperature

[daninthesand]

Thats a good tip. I do it too, except I just check the thermometers. ;)

Yes I don't trust any heater unconditionally either. But a heater can raise the temp to lethal levels in a matter of hours. If you are always home then you don't need to trust any heater. I have no choice but to trust my heaters when I'm not around.

[Mrgij01]

Just to add to the great information on this post:
Another failure point I have seen on heaters is the seals.
If you have had a heater in a tank for a long period of time and then you take it out and let it dry completely, the seals that keep the water out can crack and allow small amounts of water to get into the heater body.
I have not seen this happen every time, just something to keep in mind.

[daninthesand]

Yes, the "seals" are a bit of a pain with heaters for sure. I wonder if keeping them upside down (Ie with the dial down and the glass upright) would keep the water out?

just a thought...

[Mr. Limpet]

daninthesand,
Very nice pictures!
The automotive industry has moved away from point contacts for over 25 years. I don't quite know why no-one has gone to a solid state controller that uses a FET switch. ( A FET switch acts as the point contacts, but does not have to deal with the arcing of the current when it turns on and off). The arcing as it switches on and off is what causes the damage. These parts are dirt cheap now, but I guess the industry is just lagging behind. Maybe there is just not enough profit to be made on a new design. JMO, Paul.

[Ardan]

Nice post Dan. I've taken them apart many times and found either the contacts bad or a broken wire.

You have to have some skill to fix any of them properly.

Good Job. 8)

[barron]

Hi Dan

Good Job how did you attach the points? Mig

Also would a gold plated contacts last longer?

Barron 8)

[daninthesand]

Well, this morning the heater appears to be working. The temperature in the 5 gallon pail is 88-89. I have placed the heater into a 29 gallon tank and will see that it works (no fish, 250 watts). I was able to observe from time to time the pilot light go on and off last night. I assume things are good.

I filed the old points down to new metal (looked like copper) and then used a soldering gun and silver solder to build up the old points. I filed and buffed the new surface to look roughly the same as new ones. I was contemplating using gold but my wife caught me trying to remove the wedding ring from her finger as she slept....JK ;D

Barron, yes, gold points would likely last longer but I don't know how to obtain them or add gold to the existing ones.

It took me about an hour to disassemble the heater, solder and file the new points, reassemble and test the heater. (not including the longer submerged test) I'm sure I could do it in less than 15 minutes with the experience of this first attempt. Was it worth it? Probably not, but it was the challenge that I enjoyed.

I can get ebo's for around 15-18 bucks (US) plus shipping so my time is not really worth the effort to repair the heaters. However, if this heater proves to last longer (because of the silver points ???) then maybe eventually I'll need to buy fewer of them over the long run if i repair them as they break down. Maybe I'll take apart the heater again and check on the points' condition in a few months.

Paul, the Tronic heaters by Hagen do not use points. I understand they have the electronic thermostats. I did take one apart a while back. (I droped it and it broke actually) and I did not see any points inside. And the pictures....its kinda neat what you can do with a flatbed scanner. Can get real cool close ups of stuff. Just to make it clear....I place the item itself on the scanner. No camera involved and you get instant pix. I don't have a digicam. This is my temporary solution for small items that fit on the scanner. Try it sometime. Works great!
Daniel

[Rick_May]

Ah Daniel
I see from the last picture that your a pink panther fan.....
dead-ant, dead-ant ......

[barron]

Hi Dan

Great Photo Dan, I like the idea.

I am not sure either on attaching gold.

I would guess brazing may work.

But most pawn shops sell scrap gold and to clean it is heated, then the surface is netted and filtered clean.

Here is a chart on meatal mealting points.

http://www.kitco.com/jewelry/meltingpoints.html

The repair is great, if one does not have a spare heater and it is night and cold, no stores opened. With Sams nearby now that has helped me in a pinch.

However if the gold lasts alot longer then it may save buying a replacement or two. Now that adds up.

I think, I will try the sliver first, when a heater goes.

Thanks

Barron :)

[daninthesand]

Rick. LOL! dead ant.... ::)

Barron, I suppose if you could figure out a way to fasten the gold or even gold plate the contacts that might be a good alternative. In the long run, though, I don't know how many heaters I'll repair. If I ever come cross gold plated contacts I just might try it.

Daniel

[Mr. Limpet]

Daniel, thats a great solution to not having a digi camera. I would have never thought of that. As far as silver or gold contacts go, they do provide a lower resistance, but they both have a low melting point, and the arcing that occurs during making and breaking contact, is really hot locally, where it occurs. I am guessing that they will actually be worse as far as wear goes. Platinum contacts, that would be good. Again, I'm guessing, let us know how it works out. Paul

[daninthesand]

Paul. You bring up a very good point. I guess i was thinking more of corrosion resistance but realize the way you describe that corrosion ain't the issue. Melting point is. I see. That makes a whole lot of sense. Ok, I'll keep my eyes open for platinum contacts.... ;)

[daninthesand]

The heater seems to work fine. The 29 gallon tank has reached 88 degrees and appears to be staying there. This is at ~5 on the dial. I wonder how high i can get the tank temp to? Maybe it will be a good heater for a hospital tank.

[barron]

Hi

Good deal with platinum,

Will get a heater that lasts like the designers do not want, Yet.

I love beating Throw Away America.

Barron :)

[BlueTurquoise]

Very interesting Dan! thanks for sharing! great photography skills too!

Dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, dead aaaaaaant... LOL ;D

[Jason]

so Dan what is the difference between the tsul and the lz model? they still sell both in europe

[daninthesand]

The models are quite a bit different in their construction, in that the tz model uses brass nuts and bolts to secure essential components like the control arm. The TS uses plastic pins but I can't say that it is any less well constructed. The heater coils are identical and the points look to be the same.

The only thing I can say that the ts model has an advantage is the calibrating system. You simply lift the blue button and adjust. The tz you have to lift off the whole main cap and then adjust. But either way they are both adjustible that way.

Oh and the control rod that you turn when adjusting the temp is brass in the tz and plastic in the ts.

There are some other design features that are different but I'd say that these make no diference to the longevity of the heater. If the main reason for failure is in fact degradation of the points, then the two heaters are the same.

Daniel

[daninthesand]

Hey there. The talk about melting point got me thinking...so I made repairs to another EBO heater like I did here, but this time I used standard solder. 50/50 lead/tin. I know form experience that this solder melts easier than silver solder.

The heater worked and tested good most of the day yesterday. It remained steady at about 84 degrees. Well this morning I woke up to find the 29 gallon test tank cooking at 97 degrees :o CRAP! (no fish in the tank phewww!). I took the thing apart just now and I had to gently pry the points apart...they were welded together. So much for that repair. :(

The other EBO, repaired with silver solder, is still going strong.

So those of you who want to try doing this, don't use regular solder. It seems to be a waste of time. ;)

I'm going to try and locate some tiny stainless steel screws that I could maybe use as contacts, in case the silver points crap out.

Daniel

[brewmaster15]

Uhhh Guys...

First I have to say that you did an excellent Job here Dan with the photos and the info.... just curious though...from a material, and time point of view.. was it worth it ? ;D seems like a lot of work for a a heater that costs $15-20.

My biggest concern with all these heater repair posts is the risk. To fix a faulty heater is great, but does that mean it has a higher probability of failing again?

also. are you risking stray voltage or worse? I can't answer those others questions but on several occasions I have observed a very low tech way of testing for this electrical problem.
...I think these observations can be used here as a diagnostic tool.

Do your repairs.
Put heater in tank
roll up sleeve
place hand in water

If shock... theres a major problem

If no shock.. remove hand from water..
use rubbing alcohol to wipe off an area of your index finger and pinky
take a brand new razor blade
wipe with alcohol
make a small cut on each finger
insert in water
If sharp pain...theres a minor electric problem

Trust me it works.. everytime I have ever had a cracked heater or leaky seal.. I have found out about by a cut on my hand. :)

-al

[daninthesand]

Hi brew.

yep you are right I kinda eluded to that. Not worth it.

Stray voltage...? yep tested that. but i did not want to encourage people to use the method i use. ;)

I was hoping to find a material to make contact points out of that will permanently repair the heaters....I have at least 35 to 40 heaters, some working some not. My guess is most can be repaired. maybe forever.

Besides, in general, discus keeping...is it worth it? depends what "value" you get from the time and money you spend. In monetary terms....discus ain't woth it by a long shot. but there are other rewards......so they tell me... ;)

[brewmaster15]

I hear yoU Dan, I Hear you!

Guess my problem is I cringe everytime I put a new heater in tank....

you've seen pics of my fishrooms electrical? DIY er I ain't :).I wouldn't sleep at night knowing that Brew's "goodwrench Service" repaired the heater in my Discus tanks!

At least if it fails from the MFG I can vent to someone about the shoddy mfg. If i "fixed" the heater in question though..

"yep ...I fixed that there heater good. Before it wouldn't get the water up past 60F, now it goes from 60F to 110F in minutes....Dang I did that good!"...LOL :)

-al

[daninthesand]

sleep!? in this hobby? :D

[breed_beyond]

So where are ya going to do a repair or take apart a visitherm deluxe?

[daninthesand]

I happen to have a visitherm right next to me....

[BlueTurquoise]

I must admit, soldering iron and heater is not my cup of tea... ;) :)

[limige]

hmmm, if you could just get the platinum tip from a spark plug and solder it on there for contacts.........
ok maybe stainless screws would be good.

[daninthesand]

limige, that is an excellent idea. i do not know if platinum will take solder. maybe platinum screws....?