does gravel make a difference

[markfresh]

i have seen some nice planted tanks but th other day while at a breeders house he had a 4x2x2 with no gravel just 2 potted plants heater etc the simplicity was outstandingly beautiful
does the absense of gravel matter to the fishes overall health or happiness
i was thinking of doing it to my 4x18x18 looks so much easier to clean and maintain

mark :bounce2: :bounce: :bounce2: :bounce: :bounce2:

[Mattzilla]

it is definately better to have a bare bottom tank. discus require super clean water and gravel traps in dirt, parasites and lots of crap your tank doesn't need.

go bare bottom, you'll never look back!!

matt

[markfresh]

so do discus really need somewhere to hide if so potted plants? rcks ? logs?
or just make it bare and they are happy enough
i really like the look of a large barebottom tank i just dont want to stress out the fish
also are atman internal filters good
can you put a breeding pair in a barebottomed 4x18x18
my discus r feed blood worms,beefheart,flakes and tetra bits is that good
does anyone have a simple food recipe for my finned friends
i have what is called a nyamunda ble breeding pair has anyone heard of them or have apicture i can match them to thannnnnnnnnnnnks

[limige]

wow, you've got a pair of wild blues :o
consider yourself lucky.

bb. (barebottom) tanks are prefered in the discus community. mainly because of the live foods we use. things like a beef heart mix foul the water quickly.
gravel is a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and nasties, by removing it makes a much cleaner tank.

best filtration is just hydro IV OR V sponge filters driven by air. use a good submersable heater such as a visoterm or a titanium heater and your set.

a pair of dicus needs at least around 29 gallons of tank space. a 4x18x18 tank (65 gal) is more than suffecient for your pair.

plants help fish feel more secure, so does painting the sides and back of the tank. but the fish are fine without plants too, i only have plants in my 190gallon tank. i use glass ivy bowls with glass marbles to plant them.

goto www.californiablackworms.com to order live blackworms shipped to your door. also tetra bits are a good food as well as brine shrimp, hikira blood worms, or a beef heart mix.

there are many different receipes. most include
ground beefheart (cleaned)
shrimp
cod
1 or 2 cloves of garlic
liquid vitamins
flake food.

some use a geletin some use flakes to help consistancy.

keep your fish in about 84 degree water, change at least 25% daily dechlorinated and match temp.

check your water after 24 hrs. if you want them to breed you need to drop the conductivity (hardness) below 100 or so microsemins.

;GOOD LUCK ;D

[JeffreyRichard]

it is definately better to have a bare bottom tank. discus require super clean water and gravel traps in dirt, parasites and lots of crap your tank doesn't need.


I agree it is EASIER to keep discus healthy in a bare bottom tank, but I don't agree that it is "DEFINATELY" better. It depends on the work you want to do to keep the water clean. A planted tak has many benefits a bare doesn't have ... particularly with water quality.

I also dissagree somewhat with the notion that "Discus require super clean water" ... I think that's a bit of an extreme statement. Yes, they require clean water, but they don't need to be kept in a sterile environment. Normal filtration and water changes are all that's needed for maintaining thriving discus.

Jeff

[angel12]

You can go for a compromise of Plants in a earthware or clear pot that way you can move the plants and clean underneath at the same time as giving them somewhere to hidebehind should they want to .....

HTH

:)

[John_Nicholson]

It is plain and simple. Discus prefer the water as clean as you can keep it. Gravel makes that very hard to do. Discus can live in water that is less clean (just like homeless people live on the streets) but it does not mean that the excel in such enviroments.

-john

[Carol_Roberts]

The only thing inside my discus tanks (besides discus and water) is a heater and the intake tube for an aqua clear filter . . . . oh, and philodendron roots . . . ;D

[markfresh]

thanks everyone
at the moment i have my juviniles in thw 4x18x18 and my pairin a 2x18x18 ialso have another 2x18x18 if going to barebottom in all tanks should i put my pair in my 4' and seperate the juvi"s between the 2' or just leave them all where they are and take the gravel out of the 4' ::) :D

[JeffreyRichard]

It is plain and simple. Discus prefer the water as clean as you can keep it. Gravel makes that very hard to do. Discus can live in water that is less clean (just like homeless people live on the streets) but it does not mean that the excel in such enviroments.

-john


This is not meant as a personal attack, so please don't be offened ... your sentiments are very common and shared by many.

I have to ask, is it JUST discus that prefer "water as clean as you can get it", or are there more fish that share this need?

I have a 55 gallon planted tank with Cardinal and Rummy Nose Tetras, Sterbai Corys, Honey Gouramis and female bettas in it. This tank has 5 inches of gravel. I consider the Cardinals much more descriminating than Discus, but they are thriving.

So do you advocate dismissing all astetics for the sake of sterility?

I am not an advocate of this approach. I prefer a balanced aquarium. The exception is when I'm breeding and rearing fish ... then simplier is better.

Gravel is a good bed for beneficial bacteria. Add plants and you have a nice ecosystem set up. Regular water changes will help ensure a quality environment.

I do not believe a sterile environment is beneficial to discus in the long-run, especially if you are selling them. Fish that are reared in pristene conditions have a tendency to break down once they transfer to different conditions.

I think there is a balance that can be achieved regarding cleanliness/water changes/sterility. One extreme is a bare-bottomed tank receiving continous water changes, with use of a UV filter, vacumming after every feeding, over-filtration. The other extreme is a tank with no filtration, no water changes, overfeeding and no maintainance. Somewhere in between is a moderately maintained tank with regular water changes (weekly), plants, rocks and gravel for astetics, scavengers to help clean up, and a sufficient filter to provide biological filtration.

I submit that the discus kept in the super maintained/super clean environment are NOT significantly better off than those kept in the moderately maintained environment.

My point is that I hate seeing so much "advice/opinion" that discus NEED to be kept in what I call a sterile, super-clean environment ... they don't. I have proven it over the years. I feel this is a disservice to those inexperienced keepers looking for alternatives ... just my opinion.

Jeff

[John_Nicholson]

Jeff we all have our opinions. I know that you use to raise alot of fish (mainly angels as I recall). Although I do this as a hobby I raise, sell, and ship a fair number of fish. I have also tried several different approaches though the years. I really believe that discus development is affected more by dirty water then any of the other common aquarium fish. I am not saying that you can't keep them in a planted tank. I am saying it you want them to be all that they can be you can not do it in a tank with a lot of gravel. It is as plain as that. This has been proven not just in my hatchery but in hatcheries all over the world.

-john

[Willie]

Jeff;

I don't believe you can equate barebottom with sterile. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to wipe down my tanks every week.

Although there are gradients of dirt, there are some absolutes in the hobby. One absolute is that young discus will not reach anything near full potential in a gravel tank. Adults can survive in a tank, but don't expect any show winners out of these. If someone is raising young discus, I believe its imperative to advise them to go barebottom.

Willie

[JeffreyRichard]

Willie and John ... sorry guys, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

There are no absolutes, Willie, in my opinion. Because there are many different factors involved in the health of fish, focusing on on factor, such as bare-bottoms, does not accurately present the challenge. Gravel with healthy plant growth provides certain benefits that are not provided in a bare-bottom tank. One has to balance all the factors and determine what is adequate. I like to use the example of tank size and number of fish ... it is POSSIBLE to grow out 30-40 discus to adult size in a 70 gallon tank (I've done it). However, to do this, you need to have constant water changes and lots of biological filtration. The same amount of fish in a 250 gallon tanks would require significantly less water changes and filtration. It comes down to trade-offs, which is why I don't buy into "absolute" statements.

John, I do agree that it is impractical to keep ANY fish in a hatchery situation in anything but bare-bottom (assumes many fish grwing out in multiple tanks).

It is my role in life to make sure all perspectives are presented, so people understand the options they have. I really hate terms like "absolute", "must", "never" ...

Jeff

[John_Nicholson]

Jeff I understand that you want all views presented but there are lots of new people on this forum. Giving them the thought to keep their new 3 inch discus in a gravel/planted tank is simply going to cause a lot of stunted and/or dead fish. You or I either one could probably keep adults in a planted tank and make it work but that is not what needs to be thrown out to the masses. Bare bottom is the only good way to raise out discus in my opinion. When I give my opinions I don't have to worry that I may have just messed up someones discus.

-john

[JeffreyRichard]

Sorry John ... respectively, I can't agree with you at all with your statement. In fact I believe "we" (collectively) give way too much opinion that is stated as fact.

In this particular case it is more than just possible to grow out healthy thriving discus in a planted gravel tank ... discus are NOT sentenced to being stunted in this setup. I want newbes to know there are options.

John, I feel you are not giving discus enough respect ... the species is not the fragile, delicate fish I read in your statements. Good husbandry practices that are applied to any type of fish can and should be applied to Discus. Extrodinary measures are not a requirement!

I am certainly not saying that anyone who desires to practice continuous water changes in a bare-bottom tank is wrong ... they aren't. In fact, that may be the easiest way to keep healthy discus. BUT that doesn't mean one cannot use a less extreme methodology and get similar results. It is my opinion that there is a significant drop in one's chances of having healthy thriving discus in a gravel/planted tank if good practices are maintained.

I'll go one step further and say, in my experience (12 years breeding angelfish and discus) that my discus have been markedly hardier than my angelfish ... there has been more margin for error with the discus than angelfish regarding water conditions, crowding, etc. This is just my observations ... I don't have empirical evidence, but I'll stand by them.

Jeff

[John_Nicholson]

I am not saying that they are "fragile, delicate fish". I am saying the very best method (bar none) for new people to growout large, colorful, heathy discus is a bare bottom tank. It is that simply. I have been around these forums for the last 4 or so years. I have seen a boat load of people come online talking about raising their discus in a planted tank because by god it can be done. After 6 months or so I would say 9 out of every 10 had failed. I post suggestions that are good solid suggestions. The kind that lets the new folks have success. the kind that keeps them around. Not the kind that would normally lead to failure. Telling new folks that they can growout young discus in planted tanks is setting them up for failure. If you are ok with that then fine.

-john

[limige]

john i think what it boils down to is your expertise.

there are some out there whom are so into biotype tanks that could do it no problem. but most of us don't know enough to keep everything balanced just right, it takes a large system to be done properly.

for most people who come to the board barebottom is the best way to go. i've enjoyed my gravel tanks, used undergravel filters for ages but with discus and the types of food we feed, the growth is so much better with large water changes and a bare bottom, i've raised fish in both and can totally see the difference. but again, there are some people on this board who could pull a planted tank and breed fish no problem. just generalizing.

the fish are hardy no doubt. i found a breeding pair of greens at a pet store in a 18- gallon tank on a centalized system with gravel, swords, and water sprite. i've seen other fish at the same place with bacterial infections but here these guys were with wrigglers no less. go figure.

my first post was a generalization for most to have great success. i didn't mean by no means it could be done different, just stated the basics most of us follow.

[Carol_Roberts]

I am saying the very best method (bar none) for new people to growout large, colorful, heathy discus is a bare bottom tank. -john


My feelings exactly. In fact I think you stole that line from me, John ;)

[Emanuel]

Interesting discussion! :) I think there should be a distinction between raising (growing out) discus and keeping (presumably adult) discus in planted tanks. Moreover, the success of keeping discus in planted tanks is not only a function of the hobbyist's discus expertise but also of his/her experience with plants. Most discus fans are not plant experts and vice versa. It takes a lot of skill to keep a closed environment such as a planted tank with heavy bioload (discus are relatively large fish) in balance. I don't see much of an advantage in raising discus in planted tanks (apart from aesthetic reasons) but the disadvantages are clear. As with most things in life, there's always a room for compromise. If you want"green" in your tanks and/or a little less nitrates, use potted swords, driftwood-bound java fern or anubias or floating plants such as water sprite and hornwort. And, don't forget to enjoy your fish, in whatever tank they may be! ;D

[JeffreyRichard]

I am certainly not saying that anyone who desires to practice continuous water changes in a bare-bottom tank is wrong ... they aren't. In fact, that may be the easiest way to keep healthy discus. BUT that doesn't mean one cannot use a less extreme methodology and get similar results. It is my opinion that there is a significant drop in one's chances of having healthy thriving discus in a gravel/planted tank if good practices are maintained.



My bad ... I meant to say NOT a significant drop in one's chances of having healthy disus ...

[JeffreyRichard]

I agree that the bare-bottom approach makes it easier to maintain healthy discus ... I object to the inference that it is difficult or impossible to grow out discus in any other way ... that's how I interpret your statements.

If I could suggest ... when someone asks about keeping discus in a planted or gravel tank, it seems more appropriate to answer "yes, but it is more difficult than a bare bottom tank". An explaination on the pros and cons are in order.

Just stating that one should only use the bare-bottom approach is what I object to.

[JeffreyRichard]

Telling new folks that they can growout young discus in planted tanks is setting them up for failure. -john


We will have to agree to disagree ... from my 12 years experience, it is not a reciepe for disaster. It's just a bit more/different work.

[John_Nicholson]

Ok agreed....we do defienatly disagree...LOL

I stand by my statement that most newbes that try to growout young discus in a planted tank are doomed to failure.


-john

[brewmaster15]

Hmmm,
Another of those Discus topics that seems to spark some disagreements. I can see boths sides here and their points of view.

gravel... is it doable, yes. is bare glass easier to keep clean... absolutely. what should one advise others on... InMY opinion I like to give novices the best chance of success when they start, and I honestly believe that the way to do that is reccomend that they start with a bare glass tanks, and lots of water changes , and lots of good food. Put that together with good healthy starting stock that was quarantined properly and you will have a better chance at success. It just makes sense.

THEN. after you have the basics and have gotten your feet wet(so to speak).. try other things... try scaling back the water changes, try adding potted plants... gravel or sand...try adults in a planted and try growing fry in a planted tank. If you succeed ...Bravo! :)

I firmly believe that all these things can be done... but not by everyone. I also believe that most of us will try to do some or all of these things if we have not done so already. We then find what works for us, to our satisfaction .... and that becomes our mantra on the boards, and in our hatcheries.

The key here is to determine what you want out of the hobby.. and that will determine what you should strive for.

>>>My best advise... Keep it Simple at first. Learn to crawl before you walk. and walk before you Run. master 1 tank before buying from 10 different vendors, and always try something different to find your own path.

HTH,
al

[Sketchy]

...a healthy environment for plants is a healthy environment for fish. Take care of your plants and gravel and your fish will be healthy as well.

[Liz_Streithorst]

I remember Hennis Hardenburger telling about how back when he was at sea for months at a time, he kept his Discus in a tank with an undergravel filter and used automatic feeders which his wife refilled weekly. There was NO tank maintence while he was away. He said that while his Discus grew more slowly, they did reach full size and were healthy.

There is always talk of bad bacteria but I think Jeffery nailed it when he mentioned the benificial bacteria that lives in gravel. Something related that may or may not apply is that for years chicken farmers were told to clean their chicken houses down to the bare dirt between shippments of chicks. There was always a lot of losses from the death of the new arrivals. Then one day somebody decided that removing the manure was a bad idea and guess what...death losses of new arrivals dropped drasticly.

When I raised dairy goats I always kept a squeeky clean barn. I was always battling mastitis. I noticed that the people who neglected their goats and had years of manure build up didn't have the problem to anything NEAR the extent that I did. (I had even learned to do my own cultures and sensivities at home) So one year I decided to let the manure build up. Guess what...no more mastitis.

This said, I do keep BB tanks with potted plants. Go fisure...

Liz

[brewmaster15]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=12092;st art=0

[ChloroPhil]

Ok, time for me to chime in. :)

Being a Plant Person through and through I can say with absolute certainty that it's 100% possible to grow out any type of fish, discus included, in a planted aquarium. Assuming that the fish species doesn't eat plants.... >:(

Up to this point every species where I've had a viable breeding group housed in planted tanks has successfully spawned and reared babies. In fact, I've got a school of Red Pencilfish Nannostomus beckfordi with multiple broods of fry going right now.

Can discus successfully spawn and raise fry in a (heavily) planted aquarium? You bet! I've seen it done many times.

Will the fry likely become 10 inches across and have huge fat bellies? No.

Will they be healthy and happy? Without a doubt.

Is it easier to keep mulm from building up in a bare bottom tank? Absolutely.

Will healthy, growing plants keep the water column cleaner without the need for constant water changes. I promise you they will.

Here's an interesting _fact_:
In a well planted aquarium, healthy plants will use so much Nitrogen that it is *necessary* to add NO3 to keep the levels between a 5ppm minimum and 10ppm maximum. Ammonia is a plant's favorite food, you'll rarely ever find any in a well planted aquarium.

I urge everyone to take a look at their municipal water quality report. In the US a level of 15ppm or lower of Nitrate in tap water is considered safe to drink. 5-10ppm sounds pretty clean and safe to me. :)

How many people with BB tanks can say that they have to add Nitrate in order to have such a low concentration? I Know had to remove a lot of water from my bb tank in order to keep the NO3 level down that far.

That right there tells me that plants keep the water pretty darn clean, chemically speaking.


Now, to the really pithy stuff.

Is there usually a lot of mulm and cooties in the substrate of a planted tank? Yep!

Is there a lot of mulm and cooties where the species originated? Yep.

Is it unsightly and "dirty"? It can be.

Will there be suspended particles in the water column? Likely.

Will that hurt the fish? Nope. Most likely it's something edible. Food on the fin...

Are water changes still necessary in a planted tank? Hell Yes!

Can one rear a spawn of 70+ fry in the average planted aquarium and expect them all to live and grow to Show size? Not likely.

Are bare bottom tanks better for raising large broods of fish? Without a doubt.

Is it easier to raise large and fat fish in a bare bottom tank? Definately.

If a fish is 8" rather than 10" across does it mean the fish is stunted and unhealthy? No.

Is it possible to have happy, healthy discus in a planted tank? Yes.


Alright, time to get to my point(s):

It's all about what you want to get out of your aquariums.

If you're interested in having an attractive tank with a small number of healthy, attractive discus in an attractive, natural environment then plant your tank. If you're worried about food building up in the substrate invest in Corydoras catfish and Malaysian Trumpet Snails. Together they'll eat any leftovers on top of and in the substrate.

If you're interested in growing show fish and/or breeding them by all means, go bare bottom. All that experience and proof that barebottom systems are good for breeding fish is undeniable.

I'll leave this little Q and A session with a few constructive options for everyone.

If you're not interested in the bare bottom look but don't want a fully planted aquarium try pouring a layer of drinking water safe epoxy on the bottom of your tank and laying gravel in it. You'll have a nice gravelly bottom with no empty spaces for food to get stuck and pollute the water column.

-And/Or-

Pot your plants

-And/Or-

(My favorite)
Tie a bunch of Java Fern, Java Moss, Anubias, or other similar plants to some pieces of wood and/or rock and leave it at that. When it comes time to clean the tank just take them out and syphon the bare bottom out.

Please check out this site:
http://www.frii.com/~gbooth/AquaticConcepts/index.htm

It's plant-based, but has a wealth of knowledge for every discus keeper out there from someone who's been doing it for a long time.

Thanks for reading this,
Phil

[brewmaster15]

Hi Phil,
You made some very good points and I agree with a lot of what you posted.

These are some points you made that I'll highlight...


f you're interested in having an attractive tank with a small number of healthy, attractive discus in an attractive, natural environment then plant your tank. I think the key to success with a planted tank is "small number of healthy discus"... that in itself is often the limiting factor for many discus nuts.. we tend to over stock our tanks alot!!

Alternatively , though I am not arguing that discus in a planted look awesome, but I think we need to keep in mind that discus don't come rivers with heavy aquatic foliage. Their native habitat is very bare... sandy bottoms mostly and driftwood. and at times of the year leaf litter covered forest floors. In some senses a bare tank with maybe some fine sand and driftwood is closer to their native habitat than some of the densly planted tropical rainforest tanks you see..... This is where I think a major screw up occurs when a novice gets discus and wants a planted tank. that looks like those.....the majority go and buy a ton of plants down the street at the LFS and and plant the tank. For many they are novices to plants as well as discus....

so you get the plants and throw them in the tank.. forget QT ...its a plant... what can it carry for pathogens? ;) get whats availible...forget considering what plants do well with acidic water, what can tolerate heat to 92 F for a sustained period, what will get killed by the much used formalin and other meds, if trying to breed and deal with gill flukes. ... all
these things and so much more come into play here..

.... this is why even though I agree that planted tanks can be done, and most certainly are beautiful when done right.. There is a tremendous margin for error that is minimized when you focus on raising the discus... not the plants.Unless that is not your goal.

Maintaining a planted tank is not easy.... to those that have done so with any kind of fish I think they forget how much knowlegde it took to succeed. The same happens to those that successfully raise discus. I know I for one find discus to be extremely easy to raise and breed for the most part ;) ;D ;D ;D I didn't feel this way in the beginning.....so my point here is
*****a novice to plants and discus is a definite accident waiting to happen.
*****an expert to plants and novice to discus... might do okay
*****an expert to discus and novice to plants...won't like the results
*****Someone familar with both... has the best chance .

so the question is along the lines of whats your experience and what do you want to do with your hobby.

-hth,
al

[JeffreyRichard]

Excellent points ...

I'll go back to what I've been trying to say all along (don't know how successful I've been at sending the message though) ...

There is usually more to answer the question then a simple absolute statement

I'm reading into the opinions stated here that (often) the "newbe" is assumed to be a rookie at keeping fish. I get the feeling that as often as this is the situation where a "newbe" may be new to Discus but is a somewhat experienced fishkeeper.

I vote for more clarification in the advice offered and an attempt to present multiple alternatives ... where practical.

Jeff

[JeffreyRichard]

here's a legit question to you responders ... would you offer the same advice with other fish as you would with Discus?

Suppose a newbe said they wanted to start up a tank with Tetras and Corydoras in it, and wanted to have it planted? What would your advice be?

Let's here it ... thanks!
Jeff

[John_Nicholson]

I would ask why they were wasting tank space for those.....LOL. Discus (in my opinion) are different in the requirements to get the best out of the fish. I personally feed a beefheart mixture only. No way it work in a planted tank.

-john

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jeff,
I'll go out on a limb here, and hope to not offend anyone. But the answer to your question... yes... the advise I would give novice at discus keeping is much different than I would give on other species. I honestly don't believe you can lump all fish together as being the same. Some fish are hardier than others, some are more tolerant of waste products, and some may be more susceptible to certain diseases.

I'll also try not offend any one but if you are experienced with other fish , and new to discus..... You are still a novice.Theres a learning curve with every species....
I can't tell you how many times I heard...I've raised dozen of kinds of fish like this, and never had a problem and that usually follows with me trying to explain why they have a problem now.

Discus are easy to raise... but they do better under certain circumstances compared to others. Think back 10 years, and think about how little growth this hobby saw when breeders kept their methods to themselves. If you bought a fish, the advise was terrible and the discus usually died. The growth in this hobby is from a better understanding of what works best for discus.

I think you will be hard pressed to find someone who has raised discus in both planted and bare tanks, that will tell you that the planted tank was the better option for growing out fish, and raising them. It may not look asthetically pleaseing... but The discus will be more likely to be aesthetically pleasing and heathly.

hth,
-al

[ChloroPhil]

I'd give the exact same advice to someone keeping any other fish in a planted aquarium. The only difference would be to choose the plant species carefully (for a couple reasons) and do a 30% WC 2x/week rather than a 50% 1x/week.

When choosing plants for a discus tank:
1. Make sure they can withstand the heat
2. Slower growing plants (generally) require less fertilization and light which will make the discus happier.


Al,
Thanks for adding that bit about the natural environment of the fish. It's true that discus come from a mostly plant-devoid habitat most of the year.....but they look so good with plants! :)

[luke_potts]

hi all

ill through in my two cents worth here.
I TOTALLY agree with john about nebies and planted tanks, i believe that suggesting that a person who is new to breeding and growing out discus, IS setting them up for failure. I can say this because I FAILED :'(

i was new to discus and was tolt that i could grow out some young discus in a planted tank. i was also told that i could do bi-weekly and even tri-weekly w/c's. How far off the mark was that advice?

i have had discus for only a couple of years now and some are starting to spawn, and i have move them to a bb (barebottom) tank. As i have now only just started to replant my 6' tank as i now know what is need to keep discus in a plnted tank.

Anyway these are only MY PERSONAL opinions, but i know that this topics is always a hotly debated

Cheers
Luke

[angel12]

I have to agree with Phill And Al -- I suppose you could call me a Classic example of a inexperienced Fishkeeper ... yes many years ago I dabbled with keeping the bread and butter fish Platties danios and Gouramis ...

After a few months I got bored and Opened another tank and wanted to put some fish in that Id seen at the LFS that were far and away more intresting and Social than id seen in many visits to this shop and others --(later found out they were Discus)

I always read up as much as I can on subjects before I venture into them ... so Off I went and bought them got my tank set up back then ther wasnt such thing as this forum and much of the advice you got from people you did know was often conflicting so I made many many mistakes some of my fish dyed and others survived in fact 2 of them made it to be 7" God knows how they did it but they did

However I also at the same time thought id like a planted Tank so I stuck gravel in and got myself a pack of plants from an online supplier that were suitable for Discus ...what happend well over period of time the plants dyed and I got the algae and it just took over the tank it looked awfull ... I persevered with this tank for over 2 years trying this and that in order to keep the algae down and the plants growing .. as for the fish --- well they seemed to be doing ok (I bought 8 2-3") I was never going to be able to feed them 5 or 6 times per day but set up a regime of 3 times per day ... to cut a long story short my attempt at keeping Plants and Discus Young ones was a disaster so I gave up and sold all my tanks and equipment


Now 12 Years later I have returned to the Hobby (these fish have always had a lasting impression on me since I was a teenager) so again taking on the experience of my first run in with planted tanks and Discus and also with the help of this forum and many others I have got to the stage were I now have a planted tank that looks great to me ...

Lessons ive learnt :-

Planted tanks and Juvenile Discus dont work (not if you want to Grow them on to the best of your ability)

Compromise - ive had to do this as I specificaly went for Adult Discus this way I could feed them 2 times per day keep them happy without dropping to much food onto the substrate

there is so much to learn when you mix not only discus but plants together and this I personaly Would as other say NOT recommend this to a complete beginer or anyone who knows about discus but wants to start a planted tank the learning curve is very very steep and is a constant battle with the Chemical properties of the Water you are keeping the fish in - it can be done but it takes time patience and effort

The downside is that its water change water change water change with BB tanks I change approx 20% of water ever few days now if this was BB it would have to be 50-%60 every day or every other day something that for some who dont have space is very time consuming

as for planted tanks what about this question .. it is widely accepted that plants have healing properties in the Human world .. and it is also accepted that plants take from the water most of the undesirable elements - would anyone agree that (it would seem from looking at the disease section) a Planted tank is also beneficial in that they help to make sure the fish stays healthy buy Giving of elements that naturaly heal fish ?

it would seem that most diseased fish are from BB tanks

Bottom line is IMOH my next projcet is a Bare bottom tank with a piece of bogwood and a java Why - because whilst I have achieved to a certain extent what I wanted to do I want a challange of Growing out discus and I also want to Get some wilds and to give them the best Chance I can of Growing them on and making it easier for me to take get rid of the uneaten food BB is the only way to do it - there will always be an excpetion to every rule because every tank is different and that is what makes Fishkeepin along with many other hobbies such a Great Thing There are no hard and fast rules you have to do what is right for you sometimes making mistakes as you go along - however if you make mistakes you MUST learn from them if you do that then You will have the satisfaction of knowing you have done your best

Oh well this was meant to be short and sweet will end it here before I write a Novel


:)

[Not2Day]

I have BB tanks and plants. I use Amazon Swords and put the roots into a little plastic basket. Then I put just enough marbles into the basket that it floats above the bottom. It makes the tanks look alot nicer and is still very easy to clean. HTH
Dave

[Willie]

Jeff;

We have to agree on what we're disagree on! :D

I say, absolutely, that you cannot raise juvenile discus in a planted tank with gravel. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

I didn't say anything about keeping adult discus or even spawning adult discus in a planted tank. I agree that there are no absolutes on these two. My "absolute" statement was limited strictly to raising juvenile discus (not other species).

Do we agree to disagree on this point? ;D

Willie

[JeffreyRichard]

Sorry Willie, I disagree. I have raised juv discus in planted tanks.

[Willie]

OK, as long as we agree on where we disagree.

Willie ;D

[Mistakes R Crucial]

I've just read this thread and it would appear that the vast majority of replies are from very experienced keepers/breeders. As you are discussing helping newbies I thought I'd throw my two cents worth in as I have been keeping Discus for just 3 months.

I bought a 6x2x2 and inherited about 25 fish including a ghost knife, tetras, rainbow fish, sailfin pleco, chinese algae eaters and all the fish you should not place in a tank with Discus.

Although we have been keeping and breeding fish for a long time I knew diddly squat about Discus but decided I liked them and went out and bought 4 8-10 cm and plonked them straight in with everything else. About a month later I bought 10 4cm and did exactly the same. By this time I knew a bit more and realised it was not a good situation but couldn't do anything about it for a while. Bad move!

Although I did the right thing and kept the parameters correct it was stress city in the tank and within 3 weeks I had lost 3 little ones. Also one of the larger fish, although not diseased, was not doing well and stopped eating.

I now have a situation where the 7 remaining smaller fish are all different sizes (in a bare tank of their own), the largest is 3 times the size of the smallest and I now know I have given them all a very lousy start in life. The 4 older fish are also now in a 40g tank of their own and doing OK.

So to add to the opinions with my very limited experience, no way would I ever again place very small Discus with anything but other same sized Discus and the tanks for me would have to be bare. The 6 bare tanks we have are less work all together than the one 6x2x2 planted tank.

It cost me to learn a valuable lesson but thankfully it wasn't too expensive. The rose garden didn't get too much of a feed.
NB

[StarChazr]

I love the look of a planted tank. :) I'd have to say I think its best to grow them out in a BB ...then when they become healthy robust adults ...add them to the planted tank.

Planted tanks do take extra time, care and work! If you are diligent your efforts will pay off with a tank that is awe inspiring. Advice I would offer to someone who is new to the Discus keeping hobby is to grow out juveniles in a BB. As/if they continue in the hobby (read up on planted tanks in the meantime!) and feel more confident with their abilities they can pursue their desire for a planted tank.

With planted tanks not only do you have to concern yourself with the overall health of the fish, but now you have added extra concerns into the mix. The lives of those gorgeous plants you've spent a hefty fortune on. To the uninformed/unexperienced (like we all were at one time :)) this becomes a lesson that can be wrought with frustration after frustration, as you wrestle with, plant nutrients, water parameters, (and what is that brown thing wriggling in the gravel of my tank?!?!?! :o), algae control, and then plant ailments.

I have both BB's and a planted tank. (150 gal) I enjoy both. The planted tank is more challenging but its worth it. ;)


But, I would have to say no. I would not offer the same advice for keeping Tetras and Cories as I would for Discus. Although a planted tank with Tetras and Cories would no doubt be easier...but then again there is nothing like the regal grace of the Discus as it glides effortlessly through the leaves of a healthy Amazon Sword is there? ;)

Regards

[markfresh]

wel i didnt expect this topic to have such a big response
after reading and appreciating the atics i have come to a happy medium and have a bare bottom 4' with potted plants fish love it and have never seen them so active
thanks
mark

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Willie and John ... sorry guys, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

it is POSSIBLE to grow out 30-40 discus to adult size in a 70 gallon tank (I've done it).


Sorry Jeff,
But My adult discus would not fit in a 70 Gal tank no way No how not even 10 pcs I find this very hard to believe. IME Your adults would all growout to be very small sizes indeed. IME to grow out BIG discus you need Alot of room and water. Over crowding can and will cause stress only makeing it harded to grow them out!


JMO
Cary Gld!

[luke_potts]

hi guys
here is another link you might all want to look at as well, just some more light reading ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

cheers
Luke

[luke_potts]

oh yeah and here's the link

;) ;) ;)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=3645

luke

[JeffreyRichard]

Willie and John ... sorry guys, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

it is POSSIBLE to grow out 30-40 discus to adult size in a 70 gallon tank (I've done it).


Sorry Jeff,
But My adult discus would not fit in a 70 Gal tank no way No how not even 10 pcs I find this very hard to believe. IME Your adults would all growout to be very small sizes indeed. IME to grow out BIG discus you need Alot of room and water. Over crowding can and will cause stress only makeing it harded to grow them out!


JMO
Cary Gld!


Cary ... I was able to grow out 8 males to 7 + inches ... granted, there wher at least 10 fish that were no more than 5 inches, but all were healthy

[JeffreyRichard]

"What we have here is a FAILURE to communicate ..."

I think, perhaps, that we have different goals regarding Discus. In a planted tank, growth is much slower. I would never feed beefheart, and only feed once or twice a day. My ojectives are healthy fish, not to get the biggest fish in the shortest time.

If your objectives are growth ... big and fast, then I would agree that bare-bottom is the best approach to achieve this.

However, I'm not sure that what most discus keepers strive for. Sure, breeders do. But I feel most hobbiest keeping discus strive for healthy fish. And for sure, healthy discus can be raised in planted tanks.

Feed frozen bloodworms and mysis instead of beefheart ... do water changes once a week ... give them lots of room ... adequate filtration.

The point is there are many ways to raise and keep discus ...

Jeff

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Jeff I agree 100% ;D

But What happened to the other 22 discus in that tank?

[JeffreyRichard]

Healthy fish ... nothing special but nothing poor either ... Red turquoise discus ... most went to local hobbiests in my club

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,

Hopefully we can shed some additional insight on what exactly is everyones goal with discus. Please vote here...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12193

thanks,
al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

LOL!


Dam Brew I new when I seen that! I had a feeling it came from here. ;D

[brewmaster15]

Only way to know is to ask, right? :)
-al

[Debbie]

It's all personal preference. I have kept discus both ways and found a sterile BB tank to be just that. I never did a study on which way my fish grew better but there was no noticable difference and after about 2 years of BB tanks I changed over to planted so the fish that were kept in BB were moved to planted. There are many possible variables so the "experiment" was definately not scientific. To me it is is much more pleasing to see my big, beautiful, healthy discus in a planted tank. It looks more natural. I know that it is unlikely that discus come in contact with any plants except during the rainy season, but it is more likely that they will encounter plants than glass (that is where my feeling of more natural comes from). I do raise fry in BB tanks, but I do that with all fry, not just discus. I raise juveniles that I am going to keep in planted tanks (once they get to 2.5 to 3 inches).
I have kept discus for 20 years as a hobby. The one key to success is to enjoy your hobby, it's just not a hobby if you don't enjoy it. It is much better to help a beginner that wants discus in a planted tank to do just that, than tell him/her not to do it. That just discourages a new discus keeper. The best we can do for a new discus keeper is to tell him/her what works for us, noone has all the answers but we can all help a new discus keeper find what works best for him/her.

[JeffreyRichard]

Ahhh ... kindered spirit!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Debbie!

The best we can do for a new discus keeper is to tell him/her what works for us, noone has all the answers but we can all help a new discus keeper find what works best for him/her. want a job in the display tank section? :)

-al

[CanadianGuy]

I'm in the process of changing over two 75g cichlid tanks into discus tanks....they both have sand as a substrate....I'm sure you know what a pain it can be to get rid of!....any ideas on how to get rid of it easily??.....taking the tanks outside to hose them out isn't really feasible at this time!

James

[brewmaster15]

siphon with a garden hose. It will draw the sand right outside.

hth,
al

[Carol_Roberts]

Start a syphon with a hose (no gravel cleaning head) the hose will suck the sand out of the tank, out the door and onto the lawn.

[CanadianGuy]

Thanks to both of you!......that would be the easiest way, but unfortunately it isn't possible...my tanks are in the basement and all water has to be pumped out with a sump pump.....either thru the laundry tub or the houses sump....I don't want to run sand thru them...

I'll probably have to scoop it all out by hand....I'm trying to decide if it's worth it or not.

James

[brewmaster15]

HI james... try this then...

siphon as we reccommended into a garbage can, and then pump the water out of it leaving your gravel.

hth,
al

[slicksta]

a wet vac works very well.....if you have one that is

[Debbie]

You could leave in the sand and do a planted discus tank!

[CanadianGuy]

Thanks, everyone!

I'll try mixing the garbage can and shopvac method....seems like the best ideas so far!


Debbie, from what I hear a planted tank is a bad idea for growing out discus! ;)

[Debbie]

Only for very young. It is more work though! If you are determined to go BB you can siphon into a trash can but use a strainer or cheese cloth to catch sand. It will be easier to dispose of (lighter to carry) if there is less water mixed with the sand.

[Willie]

Canadianguy;

I tore down a 75 gallon planted tank about three months ago after fighting the algae for 18 months. Take a 1 gallon jug and cut it into a scoop. I found the sand in a 75 gallon tank only filled about 4 buckets. The only tough part was to tilt the tank to get the last little bit of sand out. After that, its such a relief not to deal with algae.

Willie

[CanadianGuy]

Debbie....I was just joking about all disagreements posted earlier in this thread! 8)

Willie.....will do! Thanks!!

[Debbie]

I did get the joke, my reply did not reflect that though. oops. :-[

[CanadianGuy]

Debbie....I have to admit that I like the look of a planted tank...I just don't think it will suit my goals at this time... :hat:

oh and the cheese cloth idea is great!!


James

[ChloroPhil]

Here's my argument. :)