Need some water advice..

[tarzan]

Hello all!

Im going to get my first Discus tomorrow, and right now im doing some start-procedures, so im prepared!

The LFS'a water im getting my Discus from, is right now about 500ms and 7.0PH
My 300Litre aquarium has been cycled, and have 0 amon/nitrit, PH is 8.0 and 500ms.

Now.. i have made a setup where i can age some water in 2x25litres buckets with an airstone. I have added som "acid" (dont know it's english name) so my PH is down to 4.0 (which means i should get a PH at 7.0 in my aquarium when i soon do a WC)

Did i do this right? Any comments ???

[Zackie]

I think I'd wait to see how your water/pH experiment works out before adding the fish. With new fish, you should expose them to as little change as possible. Adding "acid" doesn't always result in the pH you expect. Your final product will depend on the buffering in the tap water. You really ought to add the experimentally adjusted water to your tank and let it settle out for a few days to see what you're actually going to end up with, pH wise.

FWIW,
Bob

[Carol_Roberts]

That is correct. 24 hours after adding the change water with a pH of 4.0 you tank could bounce back up to 7.8.

Have you thought of buying say 50 liters of RO water (or whatever amount you need to make the water similiar) for the new arrivals and then do water changes with your aged tapwater.

Discus can go to higher pH fairly easily. Coming from a local fish store you wouldn't have to worry so much about ammonia buildup and could simply dump the discus in a 5 gallon bucket with airstone and slowly add tank water over an hour.

[tarzan]

That is correct. 24 hours after adding the change water with a pH of 4.0 you tank could bounce back up to 7.8.

But.. how is that possible ??? The breeder im getting my fish from are doing the exact same thing as im doing now.. he's using RO+acid to get his PH down stable - why should mine be any different?

Im confused, heh :-\

Henrik, Denmark

[Carol_Roberts]

If your water is identical to the breeder and you are doing exactly what the breeder does then it should be the same. Your breeder (and you) may have softer water than I have. At my house (with my hard well water) the pH bounces right back up.

Water can vary tremendously even in the same town depending on the source of the water. To confuse things even more, some towns change water sources during the year. My well has softer, lower pH water in the early spring when the ground has been saturated by rain. My pH and hardness are higher this time of year because the water table is low and the water has perolated through carbonate rock.

[tarzan]

Hmm, im not using an RO unit.. only acid

What should i meassure, to see if my water has a high or low ph-buffer ?

[tarzan]

By the way, it was Phosphate Acid i've been using..

Using R/O plus Acid (regardless if Pho.. or mutriatic) does not make any sense at all. I would advise you to talk with them again, maybe something got mixed up.

Ronald

[RandalB]

Tarzan,
Don't mess with your water's pH. Put your new discus right in @ 8.0. You're asking for trouble with the pH adjusting.


JMHO.
RandalB

[tarzan]

Ok, you all win ;) allthough, it sounds insane keeping Discus @ PH 8.0 - but i think you guys have much more experience than me! I will still be aereating my water before WC (advices from Carol)

But i still want to buy/use an RO unit (mix it 50/50 with tapwater) this is still a good idea, right ?

[RyanH]

I have to agree with RandalB. I wouldn't worry about your pH. If you take your time acclimating your fish slowly, they will adjust to the higher pH. I think people have made too big of a deal about pH. Its not as important as we have been lead to believe.

1. Empty your fish bags (including the water they came in) into a 5 gal. bucket.
2. Put in an airstone in the bucket to keep it aerated
3. Slowly add water from your tank over, say, a period of 1/2 an hour or so.
4. Net your fish out of the bucket and put them in your tank.

[Steve_Warner]

allthough, it sounds insane keeping Discus @ PH 8.0


Hi all,
Tarzan, WHY do YOU think it is insane to keep discus in pH 8 water? Do you understand the chemical effects of differing points on the pH scale?.......For example, the Ammonia/Ammonium relationship? You must learn what is involved at the different levels of pH and what all that entails before deciding that it is crazy to do. It sounds like you have been "conditioned" by others to falsely believe that they REQUIRE a low pH to live and thrive............ maybe some LFS owners who want to make a sale?. This is a dangerous way to "follow", especially if you are fiddling around with EXTREMELY DANGEROUS chemicals like acids to "fix" your water perfectly. I hope you don't think I am attacking you or your thoughts, 'cause I'm not. I'm just expressing to you that there are NOT absolutes in this hobby and you must learn about things before jumping to conclusions suggested by others(LFS owners maybe)! Make SURE you have a good, strong cycle going and try to keep them in a clean tank and well fed and see what happens. ;) JMHO


Steve

P.S-What city do you live in and where(Denmark)? I would like to try to go to their water supplier website to look at a water quality report and try to help you.

I also agree with what was said above.

But to answer your Q: "But I still want to buy/use an RO unit (mix it 50/50 with tap water) this is still a good idea, right ?"

Off the bat, with your parameters I would mix R/O with tap.
But that is just me.
There are allot factors you might want to consider before choosing a certain route.

Ronald

[RandalB]

Henrik,
If you want to do the 50/50 RO/Tap, just make sure you do so consistently, it's repeated changes that cause problems.

I personally keep my discus at 7.8 pH and around 400 Microsiemens. I've never had a problem with this and my pairs are breeding and producing wigglers at 7.8..

RandalB

[tarzan]

I hope you don't think I am attacking you or your thoughts, 'cause I'm not. I'm just expressing to you that there are NOT absolutes in this hobby and you must learn about things before jumping to conclusions suggested by others(LFS owners maybe)! Make SURE you have a good, strong cycle going and try to keep them in a clean tank and well fed and see what happens. ;) JMHO

P.S-What city do you live in and where(Denmark)? I would like to try to go to their water supplier website to look at a water quality report and try to help you.


I would never take this personly, and thats why i will follow all the guides that you guys have been posted! From now on i will use clean, aereated water! :)

Well, i dont think i can find any info about the water im getting out of the tap (im living in Østerbro, Copenhagen)

Anyways, i got my Discus today, and im the happiest person right now.. 3 blue snakeskins + 2 red spotted greens. 1 hour after they got here, they started to eat the red worms i gave them! they are so beautiful - i could just die ;D

[RyanH]

Hey Tarzan,

I would love to see some pics of your new fish!!!

[tarzan]

Hey Tarzan,

I would love to see some pics of your new fish!!!


And you will! I'll be getting some pics up and running soon..

[tarzan]

By the way, will chloramine be removed if i let my water run 24 hours with an airstone? or do i need more circulation..

[tarzan]

Well, i learned alot today! I did some watertests, and here is what i found:

Tapwater: PH 7.5
24 hour aerated water: PH 8.0 :inquisitive:

Right now i have a 50litres where i aerate my water, this means that i can do a 1/6 WC'es - do i still need to aerate my water, when it's so little water i change at the time?



That is correct. 24 hours after adding the change water with a pH of 4.0 you tank could bounce back up to 7.8.

This i still dont understand.. my tank is stable @ PH 7.5 because of that acid i added 40 hours ago.. and it hasent been bouncing at all ???

[moi_eater]

I don't think aeration alone can get rid of chloramine. Check out this link for info on chloramine and its removal:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1155

What Carol said about the pH bouncing back up is true. That happens if your water has high carbonate hardness (usually measured in degrees kH). If the pH of your water doesn't bounce back up after using an acid to lower the pH, your water probably has low carbonate hardness. If your water has very little or no carbonate hardness (for example, RO water) then the pH can drop easily, so you will have to watch that it doesn't drop too low.

[tarzan]

ok! then i would have to add some dechloramine (the stuff that they use for ponds) to my barrel.. i have no kit to meassure it! But again, if that means that my nitrate is rising, then it's no good :(

What do you guys do to dechloramine you water? Im all ears ;D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Henrik,

Looking back thru this thread I am not seeing anything on whether you have chlorine or chloramine added to your water. Depending on which it is, will help you figure out how to treat your water.

This is very important... The reason the many suppliers use chloramine is because its stable. Aeration alone will only work for chlorine. Not chloramine.

hth,
al

[Ardan]

Hi,
I agree with AL.
After you aerate for 24 hours, test for ammonia. If there is ammonia, then you have chloramines.

Chloramines= ammonia + chlorine. Get rid of the chlorine by aerating. Ammonia is left.

If ammonia is left you can use prime or a cycled filter in the holding tank.

hth

[tarzan]

great, i love you guys! ;D i will test my aged water for ammonia later.

[tarzan]

I just did a test of my 24 hour aged water - no ammonia at all..

Will this mean that my tap have chlorine ? and how should i age my water then ?

[Carol_Roberts]

If you have no ammonia after 24 hours of agitation your city may use just chlorine. IF so you just off-gassed it and CO2 . . . . now that water is what we call "aged"

[tarzan]

Perfect, im learning alot of this thread! ;D

If i can maintain a stable/low PH in my water, wouldnt that be much better for the fish if i kept my fish at 7.0 instead of 8.0? I can prepare my water in my barrel.. last time i acid' it to 7.5 it was stable for 3 days until i did a fresh waterchange!

[tarzan]

What Carol said about the pH bouncing back up is true. That happens if your water has high carbonate hardness (usually measured in degrees kH). If the pH of your water doesn't bounce back up after using an acid to lower the pH, your water probably has low carbonate hardness. If your water has very little or no carbonate hardness (for example, RO water) then the pH can drop easily, so you will have to watch that it doesn't drop too low.


What is "high" KH ? above what?

[Carol_Roberts]

I think you'll have pH bounce with KH 6 and up

[Ardan]

Hi,
I have KH 7.

I always get ph bounce. My water is difficult to adjust the ph, needs lots of acid, or I use RO water to drop the KH and then use little acid.

I agree with Carol. PH Bounce.

Better to have stable ph at 8 than ph 7 and bounce.

[tarzan]

Hi all,

Well, as always you're right. I now keep my Discus @ pH 8.0, and they are healthy and good looking!

One thing im concerned about though.. one of the fish is realy nasty on the other 4 discus - he chases them around all the time :(

[Carol_Roberts]

That is typical cichlid behavior and why we always recommend 6 or more juveniles. (Actually 10 or 20 juveniles works better than 6.)

Some discus are little Hitlers. If he doesn't calm down put him in a Quarantine tank by himself for a few days and then reintroduce him. If you don't have an extra tank use a divider in your tank

[tarzan]

Would it be ok to have 7 medium-large discus in a 90gal ?

I just removed all my plants, so only gravel are left - i was using too much time/energy on algae! now i have more time for WC and cleaning the tank for poop and food ;)

[tarzan]

you can see my fish here :)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=12719;s tart=0#lastPost

[Carol_Roberts]

Your tank looks very nice. Those 7 adults should do just fine. ;D