Use of PEAT MOSS?????

[montydiscus]

Hi All, :)
I am interested in how many of you are using peat moss in your breeding tanks? Also the type of peat moss and amount used, per 10 gallons of water? We have heard that Canadian Peat is the best? We picked up some canadian peat, but it looks mildewed in the plastic sack and has green spores on the outer layer of it, We are reluctant to use it in tanks because of this. ??? What do you think? What has been your experience? Any and all comments and your personal experiences would be much appreciated.
Monty

[montydiscus]

Surely someone will comment on the ratio of peat moss to water??????? Peat Moss is generally discussed, but we never see comments regarding....the ratio?????

[Carol_Roberts]

IM Smokey . . .. he should know.

[montydiscus]

Thanks!

[Rob R.]

Monty,
I use two scoops with a hand spade per ten gallons, but it varies depending on your water. Also, if it has fungus on the bag I would NOT use it. Get yourself a nice, dry bail of Canadian sphagnum.

[Smokey]

Peat mosses (Sphagnum spp.)

Cell walls of peat moss bind large amounts of nutrients, much more than the plant needs for its own survival, leaving the nutrient level of the surrounding water barely above that of distilled water. The cell walls function as ion exchangers. They rapidly absorb cations, such as calcium and magnesium supplied water, and, in exchange, release hydrogen ions into the water.

Because hydrogen ions render the water acidic, bog water is almost as sour as undiluted vinegar (pH=3-4).

Peat is an early stage in the transformation of vegetation into coal. Its carbon content is responsible for the dark brown color of peat (whereas bog water is tinted brown by tannic acids).

Peat moss can absorb and retain so much water that its weight should have increased about twentyfold.

Sphagnum leaves have a characteristic single-layer cell net that distinguishes them from other mosses. At 40fold magnification, the microscope shows long, photosynthetic chlorocytes alternating with the much larger hyalocytes. Hyalocytes are fully differentiated, dead cells that store water. Spiral fibers fortify their cell walls, and protect them from collapse. Large pores facilitate the entrance of water and allow even algae and unicellular animals to enter theses cells and live inside them. Hyalocytes contribute substantially to the turgid appearance of peat moss.


Peat Bogs - Bogs are rain fed (ombrotrophic). They need poorly-drained areas, a climate where precipitation exceeds evaporation, and a nutrient-poor environment that favors peat mosses in their ecologic competition against higher plants. Growth of higher plants is also curbed by peat mosses themselves because they bind available nutrients and render the bog water acidic, with a pH of 3-4. Bog peat consists almost exclusively of partly decomposed Sphagnum; its ash content is low (about 3%). Peat depth of bogs is 2-10 meters.
Because the water surface is trapped among a dense network of Sphagnum stems and leaves, water movement is almost completely lacking, and temperature exchange between water and air is severely restricted. This results in an extreme microclimate, with temperature differences of more than 30º C between day and night. In summer, even if the sun heats up the plant cover, the water temperature hardly exceeds 10º C, and night frosts are common all year round. As compared to the surrounding areas, the vegetation period of bogs may be shortened by 2-3 months.

Development of bogs is a very slow process that often started already at the end of the last glacial age (up to 10,000 years ago). Shallow lakes formed in glacier beds that were sealed by clay sediments. Under appropriate conditions, these poorly-drained basins were gradually covered with peat moss.

JUST some trival information. lol.

However - peat works - as the reader has read. Safe, harmless, efficeint and inexpensive.

give it a try. What do you have to lose [?] .

Smokey

Personaly - I find 4 gallons of peat moss conditions 345 liters / ~ 95 us gallons of water / my water!!
Specs. :
... TAP .... TO ... PEAT CONDITIONED
Ph=8.2 ---------- 6.8 Ph
GH=450 PPM --- 60 ppm
KH= 450 PPM -- 45 ppm

Different "RAW" tap waters will be affected more quickly.
Do a bit of experimentation -- with your own water.

Make up the peat water in a seperate container. Test - to see if those are the parameters you want.
Minor adjustments may be necessary - more or less peat moss per a given volume of water. OR as I put it ___ A GIVEN AMOUNT OF PEAT WILL CONDITION A VOLUME OF WATER. It is easier to control the amount of water, I let flow through the peat. mpe.

all my information is based on the raw TAP water " ONLY PASSING THROUGH THE PEAT MOSS ONCE". !!!

Peat conditioned water remains extremely stable. no surprises!!

Peat conditioned water, sitting in a 100 gallon container, with constant aireation, and heated, for up to 5 days - no noticable changes - a slight ph rise ~ 0.4. The GH and KH remained stable.

As for the colour tinge - my discus have grown accustomed to the tone. { I do not carbon the peat water}. although , others have and find only a slight change in the water parametrs.

Experiment and do some testing. You will find the exact formula that suits the needs to a "T".

P.S. - DO TREAT THE PEAT CONDITIONED WATER FOR AMMONIA AND CHOLORINE .... BEFORE ADDING TO THE DISCUS TANKS.

ONE other nice factor I find ... I can run 90F. water through the peat filter ... giving me warm water ready to use ... immediately !!!

OHHH - one more factor - the flow rate - raw tap water through the peat - I use a flow rate of 10 gallons per hour. [ single pass only}.
Others have used a pump to pass the water through the peat -- more than once -- . A barrel setup , full of water, and running the water through the peat.

Personally, I prefer the single pass method.

Smokey
HTH ---- just some of my expierences.

[montydiscus]

Thanks so much for sharing everyone!!!!!! ;D

[DISCUS USA]

2 Questions...how often before you throw away the used peat moss and replace with new....
and Smokey what does single pass mean ,i think i know but just want morew clarification...



HECTOR..NYC....

[yogi]

I'm not smokey, but I think I can be of some help. Peat is exhausted when the water exiting the peat does not have a lower conductivity than the water entering the peat. For example my tapwater has a conductivity of 250. When I change my peat bomb with fresh peat the coductivity drops to under 200. It takes about 200 gallons of water until the conductivity rises to about 240. At this point I change the peat bomb to fresh peat.

I flow my water closer to 20 gallons per hour single pass. Single pass is where the water goes from the tap thru the peat bomb once and then into a storage tank. Continuous would be more like a hob filter or canister filter.

Since everybody has different tapwater. There will need to be some trial and error for each person to find what works best for them.

[Smokey]

Hector - I only use the peat moss ONCE. Then I discard it.

The reason for determining just how much peat moss is necessary for a volume of water produced. aka .. a storage tank. Tryial and error.

I use a flow rate od 10 gallons per hour. This gives time for the water to interact with the peat moss fibers.

I use only Canadian Peat moss .. much more powerful than the 'peat moss' addative sold by eheim. [ europien moss].

I pass the raw tap water through the peat moss only "ONCE".
LIKE a coffe machine . Once only , no more!

The reasoning - the peat moss replicates the natural waters of the AMAZON water dranage system. AS close as possible!

In an artifical environment - there is so much more to the natural understanding of the benifical benifits. [ ok].

Yogi - You have an excellant conceipt.

However, I do not use a conductivity meter.,
I use the old wet test method.

A condutive meter, may not be a approiate instrument, to measure the KH of peat conditioned water.

Difference between - 450 ppm and 10 ppm.

Peat conditioned water has suspended particals.

Smokey

[yogi]

Yes checking kh readings is another way to determine when the peat is exhausted. The small particles in the water probably don't effect the conductivity meter. It's reading positive and negative dissolved ions in the water.

Peat acts as cation (positively charged ion) and replaces the calcium dissolved in the water (as calcium bicarbonate) with hydrogen ions: (H2/peat)+Ca(HCO3)2=(Ca/peat)+2CO2+H2O. The hydrocarbonate is thus tranferred into carbon dioxide. If peat is used to long it decomposes. It will release all the minerals it has absorbed back into the water. This information comes from the book Discus Fish A Complete Owner's Manual by Thomas A. Giovanetti.

The bottom line is you must test your water before and after it goes thru the peat. When it stops softening it is used up. It doesn't matter if it is still lowering the ph or not. It's the softening that counts. This information was told to me by Joe Gargas.

As Jason says peat moss is a tool.

Smokey there only seems to be few us who use it. I guess most people find it to much of a mess or a hassle. Peat also releases humic acid that the fish like.

[Smokey]

Jason .. the only tool he has is ,,, well among hie lower apendages .


juat kidding..

yes --- Jerry ; you are correct. The information you posted is great. I love numbers !!!!

Speaking only for myself/ and my personal expierences ... I am amazed at the power of Peat Conditioned water. It - the humic acids ... does not allow for any "bad" fungus or bacterias to flourish.
eg - I placed some sickly golden angels into a 20 gallon quartien tank ; - they had been stressed [ shipping], had white specs on their finage.... I noticed after, about 2 -3 days, the infections were gone. [no medications were used]. The angelfish are strong, healthy, grown 3x their orginal size.

All my discus, I have had shipped in; have been in "my" black water's since their arrival. I have never had to medicate them.

It must be the Peat... [ sometimes my w/c routien is far from perfect >>>> No3's exceeding 10 ppm < <<<<<] I over feed....
Beefheart and garlic diet; frozen bloddworms.

Smokey

[daninthesand]

peat mess!

Has anyone tried to say boil a big bag of peat and filter the water? then add it to the tank water. I realize of course this would not lower the conductivity or ph of the the tank water (well ph maybe) but the tannins it would have might be of benefit?

Just wondering....? :-\

Daniel

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Work that tool Dan LOL!

[Smokey]

Howdy Daniel;

Nope, I never have To me that seems like an extra lot of work. And being a slow moving kinda guy ... though about it and deceided to just let the water flow throw it ...

I have read some have done what you describe ... and your analogy ---PEAT MESS... sounds pretty accurate. lol.

Hmm . Dan ----- do you have a wife that would actually let you use her spaggitte pot ... to boil a bunch of dead grass in ?? !!!! LOL ...
you lucky fellow .. she is definately a keeper.

Smokey

[lesley]

Hi guys,

Very interesting posts.

One of my tanks "is not quite right". I am currently having trouble with rainwater, low pH and no registerable kH in the water. I am using bicarb soda to stop pH crashes. What would using peat moss (can't get canadian here Smokey) do to the rainwater?

Thanks,
Lesley

[Smokey]

Lesely, you have mail.

Peat moss would really acidify your water. Perhaps even below 4.0ph. I would think.

If you water is 6.0 and soft already [0 KH]; you could try an old trick we use to make water harder - for africans.

Be careful - in a seperated container try adding small amounts of " LIME ' to the water. Test until you arrive at the numbers you want. Let the water sit and aireate, retest. The Lime will change the water parameters.

ALSO- the water will become "HOT" ; so be very careful.
Trial and error on this mixture !!

The lime we used was from a stucco outlet .

Smokey

[DiscusR1]

Smokey, and anyone else who wants to reply

Can you give us a run down on how your setup is arranged?

Thanks,
:inquisitive:

[Smokey]

DiscusR1 - I do not believe my information will help your problem!

If you are replying to the addition of pure lime.. this method is based on large holding contaioners .. 55 g. Not for the home hobbiest/.

Could you identify your water source/area you live.

[DiscusR1]

Smokey,

I do not have a problem. I just wanted to know how you use your peat moss.
Do you place it in a canister filter, let it sit in your storage tank, etc.

Just considering using peat and wanted to know what was involved?
:juggle:

[Smokey]

No; I never let the peat moss come in contact with my tank water!

I have a stand alone container; which I let the tap water flow through - once only, into a holding tank.
This is the way I treat my waters.

One pass through the "peat moss container" only. I then dicard the peat moss. It has become contamined with the salts of my tap water.

Smokey
Hope I cleared up any confussion.

[DiscusR1]

Smokey,
Thanks that cleared up my question.
Sounds pretty easy ! :thumbsup:

thanks
discus are #1!!!

[Smokey]

Not a problem.
If your water is hard/high pH - try it some time.
[ my rough estimate is ]- 1 gallon of peat moss can condition ~25 gallons of water - soften/lower pH. A bit of trial and error will give you the parameters you find comfortable.

The other benifit - anti fungal qualities of the water.

smokey

[KIAWAHKID]

I have been having lots of luck in all aspects of keeping and breeding discus using Keta Peat Nuggets which are available from several online fish sources. I use an AquaClear outside Mini filter with about one cup of nuggets in the bag for the 29 or 37 gallon breeding tanks. Over a week or so this usually takes the pH down to the high 3s or low 4s where the fish seem more active and comfortable from my experience. The water will tint to the yellow side but regular small water changes keep it manageable.
JACK

[peter_griffin]

What is a peat filter how do you run your water through it? I've heard of people just putting peat in a nylon stocking and dunking it tea bag style into the barrell. I've also heard of people dropping it in the back of powerfilter. How do you set it up?

[Smokey]

I coditionn all my water externially. A seperate holding container. first. then I add the peat conditioned water to the tanks - w/c.

Peat nuggets ..ok. But not what I use.

[jules]

Smokey: I am going to try letting my tap water run through the peat and then test. thanks for the advice.

jules :)

[Smokey]

Jules;
Here is a draft of the setup I use. I have found that by having all the peat moss in contact with the raw water, before exiting the container, I get full use of the peat moss. However a tight fitting lid is necessary.. lol...

The flow rate is only 10 gallons per hour.

Please let us know how you find the results. ?? ok..
Smokey

[Huy Nguyen]

Hi Everyone

Anyone know where I can get the best deal of peat moss?

[Smokey]

Huy - the peat moss is Canadain, by the bale. anything smaller may havbe addatives, Be care full. ! cubic foot bale = $ 5.00.

Smokey

[Huy Nguyen]

Thank you Smokey.

[Smokey]

Here is a pic of the peat bomb setup.
Just started to fill the storage units.

The black Hose[on the top right] is the water supply line, . First the water passes through 2 carbon and a 1 micron sediment filter. Then into the "peat bomb".

The raw tap water has to flow down through the peat moss.

The White cpvc pipe [ left side of container] is the riser pipe[ it swivils]. This allows all the water to be in contact will "ALL" the peat moss. NO CHANNELING. lol.

The water then flows into the holding tanks.

[Smokey]

Here is a pic after the storage tanks have filled.

As the water flows - it goes into a 160 Liter first, then flows into the 90 liter [left], then flows into a 90 liter [in the corner, see previous pic], then into the 100 liter rubbermaid container. There is a Hagen 802 powerhead, which pumps the water back into the 160 liter top tank.

The water entering the bomb is 90'F. A single 250 watt heater in the 160L. to maintain temp..

I have two 55 gallon barrels .. not set up yet... lol... for future storage.

This is the first equipment setup in the new fish room. One thing at a time hahahaha.

I am thinking about ordering 6 - 325 liter tanks. 24 x 24 x 36 inches long.

Smokey

[ronrca]

Wow! I cant believe it! Smokey actually knows how to use a cam and has pics! Astonishing! Know that only problem is with peat water, did you put fish in the tank already or not? LOL! ;)

Btw Smokey! Why do you have one tank flowing into the next? R you bored and like watching the water flow? LOL! J/K

[Smokey]

Howdy Ron;

That pic is of the storage units - to get 100 gallons, I had to link a few tanks together. lol... One heater and a sump pump kept everything warm and mixed. I them pump the water to the 100g. unit for w/c's.

The discus are in the living room, at the moment. A 100 gallon unit. wow - do they go through the water, fast.... lol...

I got your e-mail . nice choice's. I will get back to you on monday.

Smokey

[Smokey]

P.S - I forgot to mention - that is the actual color tone of the peat conditioned water. lol....

Smokey

[jules]

We did just a small set up using a water jug with peat moss then filtering it back through with a coffee filter to clear the sediment. The KH went down from 14(250) to 10(179), PH remained relatively stable in the 7 area.
Smokey, when you are syphoning the treated water, is the sediment staying in the original container?

[Smokey]

Jules:

I do not need to syphom the peat conditioned water .. it goes directly into the holding containers.

I treat, chlorine, Make sure the numbers are correct .. and add to the tanks. A heater keeps the waters at 90 degrees F.

See acomping pices.
More questions - not a problem..

This is a fairly new technology .. yea right.. Mother Nature has been doing this for centuriers. ...

I, have only adapted to a home use . So simple. YUP. and it does work,,.

Start the waves. ships will sink.

Not new - just revitalized/ today.

Smokey

I am not a con - sultant.

I pass along the expierence of my mentours.

[jules]

I used the wrong wording...here is your diagram Smokey with my question. :)
......I see the answer above. :)

My water comes from a well so no chlorine/chloramine.
There is a bog not far from here actually.


thank you very much

[Smokey]

Jules; Yes, the bottom filter foam keeps the coarse particles from escaping.
You could also let the water pass through any type of filtering media - before it flows into the holding container.

This is not rocket science. lol... Peat lowers the salts/hardness of water. After that - it is just a matter of using it. The filters, I use, remove the smaller particales; and seed the foams with the moss, for continious softening.

Just like in the wild.

Remember - in your experiment - the water/moss time was short.

MPE - a gallon of peat moss - can condition 20 to 25 gallons of water - with incrediable results. eg - remove the hardness salts.

Try a larger container - with more moss. and let the water have more contact time with the moss. I use a flow rate of 10 gallons per hour. Continious flow.
Slow, but very effective.

Jules: what are the numbers, of the water, before they enter your tank. pH * KH. ??

My water is liquid rock. The moss drops the KH fom 450 ppm to 45 ppm. pH from 8.5 tp 6.6. Single pass!

BTW - the discus are healthy, gowing, active, hearty appitites, and no need for external medications... A year long experience/experiment! Even :"sicK" fish have recovered, from thier problems. {illness}.

P.S - a short foot note; The red Diamonds have spawned twice - their eggs never fungused. In the 4 days the eggs were healthy. Unfortunately, a 100 gallon tank, with 30 fish was a bad place to lay eggs. All were eaten by others.

Actually, I believe it was a good learning expierence for the parents. They guarded the eggs. kept them healthy. Even in the dark of night/ No stress was observed! Just gentle giants - taking care.!

Perhaps the moss water also removes un-natural stress. Hmmm , a future paper .

Smokey

[jules]

Hi Smokey, we tried the peat set up and it definitely softens the water but the water is a little too dark to see the Discus.

We also put some in a nylon sock in the power filter and let the water get slightly discoloured with tannins,( a shade of light tan-like really weak tea). The Discus were hanging out around the filter so they definitely approve.

Thank you for the suggestion Smokey.

[Smokey]

Happy to be of help.
Hmmm you say the water is too dark to see the discus; I find that hard to believe, LOL...
You are correct!. The darkened water is actually liked by the discus. Less stress, softer light, etc.

The tannin color can be removed by passing the peat conditioned water through carbon. HOWEVER - the carbon may affect the hardness of the water - [?]. I have never used carbon to remove the tint, myself. Others, I have talked with have and the water will become clear again.

Smokey