constantly black

[Sara]

Hi all, I have a problem with my discus. I got them 6 weeks ago, 9 of them. Remember I am the one with the 55 gallon cycled tank waiting for them.

Tanks parameters
temp - constant 86
ph - 7.6
water changes - 3 times a week - 30%
ammonia - 0

Last week I lost 2 of the smaller ones and the rest eat fine and do their thing. I feed them high protein flakes, frozen blood worms, chicled pellets soaked in tank water until the expand, frozen brine shrimp. I feed them 3 times a day. They range from silver dollar size to quarter size.

The place where I got them from is the same place that I sell my angle babies to and the owner is a good friend and he gets his discus from only 1 person and he also is a local breeder, they are turquios and reds. I asked the fish store owner to ask this fellow what he feeds them and how often does he do water changes etc. Once he got the discus in I went to get them and the store owner told me exactly what I expected to hear, same food as I feed my angels, water changes 3 to 4 times a week at 30%

Ok finally to my problem, they keep turning black on me, their poop is normal, no stringy stuff or bloated, they look and act fine. The tank is no where near any window or sun or shadows. I am just so worried I am going to lose them. I don't know why they turn black all the time, there is no territory fighting amongst them, they stick together like glue.

Can someone please advise me on what I am doing wrong :(

Jo

[Nightowl]

Hello, you might not be "doing"anything wrong. You say they keep going black, or have they been black for a while? I would definitely check your nitrAte level and maybe do daily water changes of 20% for a while. Is the w/c water close in chemistry & temp. to the tank water? Also, I would lower the temp a bit. Yes I know everyone always says crank up the heat but I find if the fish are stressed and there is some low level bacterial thing going on lowering the temp to say 83f might help a bit. Maybe add some salt, 1tbs./10g to start. Over feeding bloodworms can sometimes put discus off a bit. What ph were these fish raised in? good luck............ J.T.

[lioncity]

the same thing happened 2 my 3' tank few weeks ago.
the problem then was due 2 the water condition in the tank.
i changed 2 much water n the some of fishes couldn't take
the sudden changed. however, i got an advise from our
local fish shop and is now completely cured.

use MK, a kind of powder tat actually used to condition the
water for the fishes. sori, i kind remember the exact name
of the medicine. let me know if u really need 2 know cos
the bottle is placed at home. :P

[Sara]

I really don't know if it is something I am doing or not, A few have been mostly black since I brought them home and this breeders and store owners and my ph are all identical since we all are on the same water company. My tap water ph goes into the tanks at 7.6 and then up to 7.8 after several hours and stays there. They change colors so often during the day I know this is not normal. A couple stay black most of the time and slightly calm their colors at feeding time then right back to dark.

My water changes are always exactly the same temp as the tanks water just the difference of .2 in the ph.

I give them 1 cube of frozen blood worms that I hold in my fingers and they come and eat it from there and I make sure that 1 doesn't pig out and the others go without.

The tank has been cycled for a year now and the discus are the only fish in this tank except for 4 cory catfish which I have had for over a year and are fine and keep to their little lives. The nitrates are nil and I test the whole tanks water parameters every 2 days and all is exactly the way it should be. I have my overhead power filters set on lowest setting so there is not to much water flow and a sponge filter which I squeeze out once a month a few squeezes in the tanks water I just removed for the water change.

The discus were raised in exactly the same ph as I have, this is so frustrating.

Jo

[Liz_Streithorst]

The fact that you all are serviced by the same water company is no guarantee that the water paramaters for the 3 of you are the same. My water company uses wells. Water from some wells goes to one area, water form others goes to different areas. The water from wells that are not that far from one another can be VERY different. It sounds like these babies may have experienced a sudden pH swing from higher to lower pH. If this is the case there's not much you can do other than keep your fingers crossed. Have the owner of the shop check with the breeder to see if their pH matches yours. Good luck

Liz

[Sara]

Our water company uses Lake Erie. I checked with the water company to see if anything they were doing different or adding anything we should know about and they told me that everything was the same.

I did check when I got the discus with the breeders water chemistry and our ph is the same,when I brought the discus home I accimilated them to my water parameters anyway to be sure for about 6 hours, slowly switching the water they came home in to my water.

I know discus are alot more shy and finnicky than angels so their tank is away from any traffic in the house and they do see people but people don't pass by right in front of their tank, more like across the room. I am the only one that changes their water and feeds them and I hand feed them and they come right to me.

I have had them 6 weeks now, this is why I don't understand why the continous turning black, a few just on and off black and the others most of the time. I know this is telling me they are not happy about something and am having a heck of a time figuring out what it is. Something I am missing here I am sure of it or they wouldn't be so dark all the time.

Jo

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jo,
For them to turn black something is stressing them out.You have ruled out temp/pH and waste products. You are feeding them good, and doing water changes.

a few suggestions. Even though everything seems similar between yours and the breeders water,
1) call your water supplier and verify it, ask about anything they add. They may think it is nothing, but your fish may feel different. Alot of chemical added can be stronger the closer you are distance wise to the distribution source.
2) get a storage bin, and age your water, verify your pH aged verses tank , and tap. while you are at it... Treat the bin water with amquel or some other commercial prep that neutralize chlorine, chloramine. These also remove heavy metalsin alot of cases.
3) have your water tested. If your pipes are old...you could have copper leaching in.This can be toxic to fish.If so..Theres products that remove copper.
4) Filter the water in the bin thru carbon.

If you do all these and theres still stressed... you can rule out the water.

next would be a parasite, something that they may be fighting off. I would work at the water angle first.

Hth,
al

[Shari]

Seeing this article I had to stop in - I inherited two F1's about three mos. ago (from Wild Browns) and they are about 2 1/2" in size. The one has a lovely golden-brown body with red developing on back fins, the other is solid black with a very gold head/face (much like you see the Marlboro's with red body and cream heads)
I've been worried about this one little one for weeks. All the treatments in the world hasn't helped, he's growing, eats well, but body is seldom lightened up (I know he can do it) so the daily black color shouldn't be normal for him. They were raised in 6.5 ph and are in 7.6 for all these weeks. Could it just be he isn't adjusting to the PH hike? And all other parems are ok.
Any ideas?


Shari

[brewmaster15]

Hi Shari,
Discus can usually adapt to a pH range found in most tanks. Yours should not be a problem unless the pH is bouncing. That they don;t like!

hth,
al

[Carol_Roberts]

I bet you have a parasite or bacterial problem. Are their gills laying flat or are they breathing heavy?

[Sara]

I just went and sat in front of the tank and watched them, they seem fine but are breathing heavy, they don't look to be fighting for air but their gills are working at a pretty good pace.

Jo

[Carol_Roberts]

I'd add extra air to your tank by either adding an airstone or lowering the water level a half inch or so if you have a hang on the back filter like an aqua clear.

Then I'd try formalin at 1 cc or ml per 10 gallons tomorrow morning. Do a 50% water change 8 hours later. If you see improvement repeat every other day for 14 days. You can add salt to the tank with formalin.

[Nightowl]

Jo, try salt, aquarium type or Kosher, @ 1 tbs. per 3 gal. of water and see if you get any results. Change 30% daily and re-add salt for the water that was changed. I wouldn't have temp TOO high without adding some aeration..... J.T.

[brewmaster15]

jo,
try doing this...
add 1 -2 tabelspoons salt/10 gal to the tank, and I would add hydrogen peroxide at a rate of 1 ml/10 gal and see if it helps.
If you have additional air pumps add them as well, or turn up your powerheads.

You mentioned that your ammonia was zero... what you describe could be Nitrite poisoning, measure your nitrites. If its nitrites...salt will help...Methylene blue is an antidote.

hth,
al

-al

[Sara]

Terrific info, I got my fingers crossed and am running for the aquarium salt right now and will turn up the powerhead filters as well. Wish me good luck with these beauties and THANK YOU all for the help.

I was getting stressed more than the discus already.

Jo

[Sara]

OK I added another airstone, have one already bubbling in the sponge filter, turned up the overheads to full, 2 of them on the tank, and added kosher pickling salt that I use to hatch bbs at a good hefty tbsp per 10 gallons.

now how long do I add this salt to their tank?
If this does the trick when would I see any improvement on the discus?
Jo

Sorry for so many questions.

[brewmaster15]

Jo,
The salt is a good stress reliever. I would think you would see improvement within a day. The salt is not going to leave the tank so only add it when you remove water to compensate.

its a treatment, but won't fix the probelm. It will help narrow it down.

do you have a nitrite test kit?
-al

[Sara]

Al, yes I have the full kit for every test there is.

Ran and did the nitrite test and it came up at 0..... Good or bad?

Not sure what else to do?
Jo

[Carol_Roberts]

Zero nitrItes is good. Try formalin next.

[Sara]

Dumb question... what is formalin and where would I get it and what does it do?

Helps me learn what meds are for what.

Thanks so much for all your help.

Jo

[Carol_Roberts]

37% formaldehyde
Sold in fish stores as Formalin
kills parasites and helps external bacterial infections too

[Nightowl]

Ooops! in earlier post I said add 1 tbs. per 3gal...meant 1 teaspoon per 3 gal...sorry :'(
Formalin is good but they recommend 2 drops per gallon. I always use 1 drop per gallon because it can impair the biological filtration in tank/filter. Anyone else have thoughts on this??? good luck, J.T.

[brewmaster15]

many use 2- 3 drops per gallon. 50% water change after 4 hours. Repeat daily. It can impair the biofilter but with lots of water changes it should be okay. Just monitor the ammonia levels. and if you see any... increase the frquency of water changes. main high aeration. monitor for stress as well.

Hth,
al

Jo,
a suggestion for you... take sometime and read the back posts in the disease board. It may draw attention to something you may have missed. i

[Shari]

Sorry for delay - been offline a few days but did want to answer since you took time to write Al. No in my case we are doing better.....did three days of metro (again) and I'm running an experiment, filtering with some peat as well just to soften the water a bit, and today my little blacki was more often golden than black. Keeping my eyes on him...maybe he just needed that one more dose or something. All else in tank seems to be fine, as are the rest of the fish.

I've had bacterial battles to be sure but usually between water changes/salt/triple sulpha etc. I've managed to the win the wars.

note - my Angel tank was a problem all year...losing the kids too often and had angels for years prior with no problem....again my first try with peat filtering just to add a little carefully monitored....let's say from a good 7.6-7.8 to a lower version of it - everyone is suddenly thriving.
My house is tricky - water softener, but not on the kitchen cold side, upstairs where the angels are, fully softened water from faucet ....must make a big difference. fyi ::)

[jeep]

Shari,

Water softeners use salt or potassium to soften the water. The result is an elevated sodium or potassium level.

Be careful adding additional salt to your water. Also, water softeners, of course, remove a lot of minerals our fish need to survive.

Many people with water softeners will by an RO unit that will remove all the leftover sodium or potassium, and then reconstitute the water using RO Rite or a similar product.

Brian