wet-dry

[tony1313]

I am thinking of making a wet-dry for a 135gal using a 20gal long tank and would like to get some opinions and direction on how to get started. I under the basic concept of how one works but am not familiar with all of the components for the system. If someone would explain the entire system and give me some direction I would greatly appreciate it.

TIA,
Tony

[Smokey]

For what it is worth, Tony, here is one idea.

Well, the first thing to do is drill the 135. Water in --- water out.
[ hole size - to allow at least a 1 inch i.d. bulkhead fitting to be installed.].

Then it is just a matter of deceiding what media you would like to use, in the sump. Bio-Balls, etc.

Then - I like to use egg-crate material, divide the holding sump into two compartments.
One compartmant for the filtering media/bio media , and the other half is for the submeragable pump, heater.

OR ......

ONE method I have been using ... for over 7 YEARS now - A five gallon plastic food grade bucket, will 1 inch holes drilled around the base. [ not the bottom, but the lowest side of the bucket].

I then fill the bucket with - from the top down - a layer of mechanical foam, easy to remove for cleaning.

Next layer, or I should say layers -- is the bio-media .... to allow growth for the bio-bacteria. and the biological process to work.

The next layer - is a fine filtering media - again a foam.

Finally - two layers of egg-crating -- to support everything and hold the media up off the bottom of the bucket, and ... which allows the water to flow out of the sides of the bucket, unimpeeded.

I place the bucket into the sump, and have it sit on a support, [ actually, I am using an old 1/2 gallon fish bowl,]so the bucket is raised up off the bottom of the sump ... 5 - 6 inches.

This allows for a good supply of water to remain in the sump, when the pump is running, with out drowning the bio-media. And the pump and heater are always submerged.

When the pump is turned off, the excess flowing water drains down into the sump [ be careful not to over-fill the sump]

OH yes, I place a couple of airstones into the bottom of the bucket ... for constant freah aireation. and a few in the sump. I like to keep the water aireated.

The hose from the tank bulkhead to the top of the bucket - is 1.5 inch clear plastic flex hose. cheap and flexiable. The tank water flows/splashes onto the top mechanical foams, self aireates, and then begins it's flow down through the bio-media and then the polishing foams; and flows out the side drain holes... into the sump.

I am useing one of those 125 liter plastic storage containers [ from rubbermaid]. Again inexpensive and easy to find. Tough as nails.

The buchet does not have the top on . I just lay the return water hose on top of the foams ... it stays put.
There is also enough hose length , I can take the hose and have the water drain into a seperated container/bucket --- for removing water .. aka . w/c.

Just one of my setups.

HTH

Smokey

[ping]

Wow .. nice Smokey :thumbsup:

Tony, i dont have trickler filter but hope this will help you. :)
http://www.wetdryfilter.com/
The link has some explanation on wet dry filter.

Regards,
Ronny

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Take a look at my wet dry here that I built out of a 20gal tank:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=10805;s tart=15

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/CloseUpMediaSuspensionSystem.jpg

[Smokey]

Howdey Peeeeteeeeere === did I mention your repair #$%K'S.

If I remenber you asked for assistance: toooo repair this particular tank ... correct..

First, MPO - sell the tank. ~~~~!!!! otherwise you will become involved in-some-thing- that requires talent. LOL... LMAO ..


Today - September the 21st/ 2003: I am very glad that you were able to """ dissambel the
tank and put --- it --- back --- together """".

For the readers of this post .... live and learn .....!

I can - " UNDERSTAND... that --- THE --- TO D0 IT --- your --- selfer's --- it is a dying breed/ extinct. !!! Perhaps this may be true for some : for the top bunch -- we do not mind getting our hands dirty! Heck , we culture the king.

DO NOT BELIVE IT ... ANY BODY CAN DO ANYTHING ... if they deceide to take the chance. And learn something new.

The world concesentious: 85% of persons will be followers ... which is what the contorling personial wants .[!! ??].

Be the individual that leads to success, the individual that can think and do ___ "WHAT OTHERS DO NOT"" .!

SUCESS IS A BEHAVIOUR _ ___ _ not inhierted.

My personal opion Is take the oppertunity to try something new, Take the chance.... Learn new oppertunities/ a new challage.

or - perhaps; I am just trying to talk to ... to a dying crowd.

Naw ... go for it.
Were are the surviours .. " RIGHT" ?
Smokey

[tony1313]

Hi all and thanks for the ideas,
Sorry it took so long to reply (been busy building a cabinet for the ol 135).

Wow Smokey are you a politician in disguise? lol.......
Anyway I like the idea of the 5-gal bucket as tower and it will fit right inside the 20-gal tank I am planning on using. I haven't measured up the height yet but I need it to fit under my tank(I have to be conservative with space). I would also like to keep it covered(the less moisture and evaporation I have under there the better).

Pete, Do you have problems with the bio-media being submerged with your design?


I have a couple of other questions as I have never used a wet dry.
From what I understand I need the water turnover to be 5x per hour(approx. 600 to 700 gph). Will the siphon from the tank keep up with/ or pass this and my sump dry up or overflow? When the filter is shut off or power goes out will the siphon continue and will the return also siphon overflowing the sump? What are the benefits of putting the heater in the sump? What about equal water disbursement over the bio-media is a spray bar necessary or is it more trouble than it is worth? And last but not least can a powerhead be used in place of a pump?

BTW Smokey, how's the snow situation up there in the north country? I hope you replenished your beer supply!

A dying breed the do it yourselfer!!!!

Thanks,
Tony

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Yes, a slight problem. The first inch of bio media is submerged as the water in the sump is about 3 1/2" high. I did that to cut down on the splashing to reduce CO2 losses. Probably a dumb idea..I'm sure most of the CO2 that is driven out through agitation occurs at my overflow in my aquarium and in the rotating spray bar thingy above the media..doubt the drop from the media to the sump would cause excessive agitation and drive out more CO2. I built this wet/dry about 8 to 10 years ago for a Planted Aquarium back when I was doing DIY CO2 injection (yeast method), so CO2 losses was something I was considerate of. Next one that I build I will raise the media another inch or so.

[Smokey]

tony and other who might happento read this thread .

forget using bio-balls.

There is much more efficient media avaiable. Bio-balls are a left-over from the 3% soluation days.

Not as efficient as there are hyped too be.

If you want to understand - do a simple calculation. Determine the total surface area of a single media ball. As to the space/volume the ball consumes.

Next determine how much surface area must be necessary for the convertation of the nh3 to no3's. plus the time required for the process. Usually 45 minutes - under perfect conditions.

Then determine how many bio-balls will be necessary/ volume needed to be effective to remove the poisons in 45 minutes./ per given volume of water. AND then deterimne the totaly cost.

This is all based on the fish load. right. NOT ONE FISH IN A 55 GALLON TANK.

In my calculations.. a time ago ... bio balls were not cost effective! MPO.

A professor once told me: a company will rather spend money on adveretising; than improving the
product..

[ how many times has TIDE been improved] ??eg!

Just my personal insight.

Smokey

[Harriett]

What's the best filter media if it isn't bio-balls? What's the best bought and what is the best scarfed from home (in the toy box?), in your learned estimations? I'd appreciate any and all responses. I'm in the middle of putting a larger wet/dry on my tank--got the filter, need more media.
Best regards,
Harriett

[ronrca]

Sponges, foam whatever you want to call it. You can buy it by the foot or meter or yard at sewing stores, 1", 2", etc. Really good stuff! Be sure not to get the dyed stuff though or treated stuff. ;)

[Dave C]

Don't be misled into thinking that more media (or more surface on your media) means a larger biological colony. The size of the colony is dependent on the food provided, not the size of the media. Some wet/dry filters use simple gravel beds with water trickling through them and work fine. One thing to consider is how easy is it to keep the media clean. No matter how you prefilter your water the media will get dirty over time. I use bioballs and they are very easy to maintain. I put them in raspberry netting and then into the filter. That way I can remove them all at one time, dip them in a big Rubbermaid container full of tank water and they come clean immediately. My entire biological colony is submerged and regardless of the efficiency of doing this, or lack thereof, it works well and my filter has sustained 22 adult Discus in my 180g tank.

Here's the wet/dry empty. The first section (on the left) houses a couple of AC500 sponges. The water goes below the eggcrate and comes up in section 2 where there are about 4g of bioballs. It rises above that barrier and drops into section 3 where there are another 7.5g of bioballs. Then it goes below the next barrier where it is pumped back to the tank.

[Dave C]

Here's the details of the filter.

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Filter.JPG

[GulfCoastDiscus]

You can also use those plastic hair curlers as bio medium. You put the smaller ones inside the midium size then the medium size into the larger ones. You can get them at a dollar store really cheap. I built my own using a 20 gal high. I also used a 5 gal bucket from home depot. I bought two 5 gal bucket. I cut one of the bucket 4" from the bottom and drill many hole on the bottom. I then placed it inside the other bucket on the upper portion by siliconing pvc pieces on the inside to prevent the cut bucket from falling to the bottom. I placed those blue air-condition filter inside the cut bucket as a prefilter. The water then trickles thru the small holes of the cut bucket to the bio-medium. I've had my w/d filter running for over 8 years. I also have it where the heater is in the sump before it's pump back to the tank. The heater is separate by two short plexiglass to keep them submerge at all times even if I forget to add water due to evaporation. I'll post a pic. It looks ghetto now. Like I said it's been running for over 8 years.

dan

[ChloroPhil]

Here are some poor pictures of my DIY 20g sump. I used to use a closeable Rubbermaid container but got tired of it and wanted something a little sleeker. Both have worked well for my 90g planted tank, the glass cover minimized CO2 loss to the point of almost nothing.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=9625

[Smokey]

I belive you have all missed the point. cost vs effienticy!!! Hair culors; fill up a 100- gallon sump tank- and just relize the totaly cost. Bio-balls just anothe marketing hype.
Dave -- You keep on repeating your self ... let it go. buddy.

Smokey

[Dave C]

Smokey, let what go? If my post bores you, or you've read my opinions before please ignore any future posts I may make. Our opinions obviously differ from what I was able to decipher from your post.

I tried your method but the effienticy wasn't there. I yoused a 2g bukket for my medium kontainer. Filled it up with filter flaws. Stuck der hose in from der tank and anutter hose from anouther tank. The water just overflowed the buck-it cus I fergot to drill them there holes in it. So I drilled them and hung the whole durn thing from some hose comming off of my Are-Oh unit. That worked ok unless the bucket got two heavy and then it dragged my in-tire Oreo unit into my sink. Problem solved when I bolted down the RO unit. I got to thinkin' and used my sink as the sump but somehow the water kept dripping out of the whole system through the darn drain and went into my house sump. Then a brainstorm hit me and I ran a hose from my sump pump in my house sump back to my tanks. This worked good unless it was raining or someone decided to flush the toylet and then all get out and bugs and such entered my tanks and made a horrible mess. So I figgeredd I needed some prefilters on my overflows... maybe some compost filters to. I ran it thisaway for a week and decided that an alternative method was better. That's what I previously described in the post you found repetitive. Here's what I made using your plans. Let the posters be the judge.

[Dave C]

btw, I don't believe any of us have missed the point of this thread. Go back to the initial post and you'll see that the poster is asking about all aspects of building a wet/dry in a 20g tank, not just about media. Regardless, if we've missed YOUR point it's because you haven't suggested a suitable media. You've told everyone that Bio-balls are inefficient but you haven't given your recommended media. As to your "simple" calculation to determine the cost effectiveness of bio-balls, do me a favor... tell me the following variables:

- what is the surface area necessary for the convertation of the nh3 to no3's?
- what time is required for the process (convertation I assume)? How do you determine that to be 45 minutes? Do you mean that 45 minutes of contact time with the media is required? Or just 45 minutes of sitting in the sump/tank where the amount of bacteria is minimal?
- how many bio-balls will be necessary/ volume needed to be effective to remove the poisons in 45 minutes? How do you know this # of balls?
- how do you determine these variables based on fish load?

I know I'm stupid and should be able to easily figure out this simple formula but I have no idea how you figure out these variables. So for the sake of the forum please go back through your notes and do this calculation for us using one of your tanks as an example. I'm trying my best to learn and improve. So rather then telling me that I'm repeating myself please fill in these blanks so I can move forward.

[brewmaster15]

Smokey,

DaveC is entitled to his opinions and observations here. Please respect them, disagree if you feel the need to , but do so in a polite manner. I realize that the more technical a subject becomes the more opinions may differ on it, but It should not become a personal issue.

Dave,
Your responses to smokey here are not exactly constructive either...

Perhaps further discussion on the subject and yours and Daves diverging opinions can be toned down alittle or carried out by IM if need be.

If either of you want to discuss my reply here further, please IM me, thanks.

-al

Dave, as I mentioned in out conversation, your design is a little dated...I think the addition of the small red clock will vastly improve on your original design....david

[Dave C]

You're a smart guy dan. Can you help me out with that simple formula? Care to figure out even one of those variables?

[Smokey]

???????????????

[Dave C]

If you want to understand - do a simple calculation. Determine the total surface area of a single media ball. As to the space/volume the ball consumes.

Next determine how much surface area must be necessary for the convertation of the nh3 to no3's. plus the time required for the process. Usually 45 minutes - under perfect conditions.

Then determine how many bio-balls will be necessary/ volume needed to be effective to remove the poisons in 45 minutes./ per given volume of water. AND then deterimne the totaly cost.


I'm asking if you could run through this formula and provide the calculations for one of your tanks. I'm specifically interested in how you would determine how much surface area you need to convert nh3 to no3 and the time required to do that. But I'd love to see the set of calculations that you would use for one of your tanks, in other words practical, live data. Then we could all learn something about this.

Dave

I dunno NUTTIN about any calculations :crazy: Im a dumass ;D
But...I do know for a FACT...that building a wet dry aint rocket science ;) Ive built about 6 of them in the last 10-12 years.
I also know from personal experience...it really doesnt matter if you use lava, sponge, curlers, bio balls, or your mama's old underwear ::) as long as you have enough of "it" in there....they work great.
In fact...they're pretty tough to screw up....one might not be as purdy as the other...but they're all pretty damn efficient.
Keep it simple....your not building the space shuttle.

This ones built out of an old 20.

Tony

Top view

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: :bounce2: Hey Tony, I like the looks of that one, think even I could make one like that if I was ambitious enough, which I'm not right now cuz I have 2 more tanks I'm trying to get set up. Think I'll stick to AC500's & sponge filters which I have plenty of. But I do like your set-up! Hopefully I won't get any more tanks tho, hahaha! Too damn much work, my daughter asked me this am what am I going to do with all these fish tanks when I start showing horses next yr????? Worry 'bout that later, ;D ??? Dottie & I like the bio-balls

[GeeCharron]

WOw I'd sure like to no how to figure that out to. I'm just building a wet & dry filter and that kinda of techie help would be mucho apprecaited. Go for it Smokey.

Gee

[Smokey]

All information, specifications, numbers - are supplied by the manufacters of the products. Most is right on the box the "bio-balls" come in.,

Ronca did mention an alternative material, that is successfully used. And the base for my wet/drys.

As I suggested, calculate the surface area of a bio-ball, [most supplies give this information in there advertisments]. Compare the information with other manufactors bio-media balls ... Every one seems to have a better product; more efficient, etc.

The media all have the same thing in common - surface area, allowing the bio-bacteria to colonize, allow the "polluted" waters to flow freely, and allow the water to "feed" the bacteria.

Packaging - same product - just a different look. MPO

The time required to convert the NH3 to NO3 . was determined by the experts ... the smart people. Not me. I am just passing on there information. Do with it what you want.

Information is invaluable, and necessary for the healthy raising of any fish. MPE.

Smokey

[Dave C]

You're missing some key points that you included in your simple calculation.

- how much surface area is required? You said that you had determined this. That's gotta be a tough figure to come up with especially if you're considering the bioload for a specific tank. This is the key figure I'd like some details on. I've always suspected that we provide far more media then we actually need but I've never seen a resource that documented how to determine the required surface area for a tank/biolad.

- how much time is necessary? Is this time in the sump, time in contact with the media or time in the tank? I don't understand how time can be determined and given that it can, how it would be used in this calculation. For example, let's say it's 45 minutes, what effect does that have on the selction of media or the amount of media?

What you have given is a method of comparing different bio-balls. It depends on a belief that the surface area given by the manufacturer is accurate and meaningful. And all it leads to is the ability to buy the cheapest bio-ball based on surface area. How does this help if you're comparing other forms of media such as lava rock, curling irons, shredded PVC etc?

And you still haven't said what you prefer as media for a wet/dry and how you calculate the surface area of that media.

p.s. I just checked a box of Coralife Bio-Balls. They have 21.5 sqft of surface area per gallon. Let's say I have a 55g tank with five 6" adult Discus. How much media will I need in terms of surface area? How much time will it take for the biological conversion and therefore what gph should I use to return water to my tank?

[ronrca]

About the actually surface area between bioballs and foam is quite easy to see. Just look at the two. Lets just take 1 bioball and compare it with a piece of foam the same shape/size. Bacteria will colonize on surfaces therefore there is much more surface area in a "foam ball" compared to a bioball. However, as Dave has mentioned, foam will also become 'dirtier' than bioballs because of this surface area. You can tell that also just by looking at the two. This will effect the flow rate thru the two (even clean foam will have a lower flow rate anyways). If we take into consideration the term filtering and turn over rates (gallons/minute or whatever), bio balls will have a much higher flow rate than foam. This may however be negative or positive. The negative side may be that because of the higher flow rate, it may take a couple of flowing thru the bio balls to convert. The positive may be that the flow thru the bio balls is faster therefore the turn over rate is higher.

Anyways, based on surface area, theortically you should be able to use a smaller bio area if using foam than with bio balls. However, you will have to decrease the flow rate thru the foam or provide a larger area for the water to flow thru. So basicly, you may be back to the same bio area or space for both anyways. Perhaps it comes down to preference anyways. For me, it comes down to cost also where foam is cheaper than bio balls.

About the time necessary for bio conversion, well, that does depend on flow rate because it makes a difference on the exposure. However, as mentioned, its kind of like a paradox. Slower flow rate, higher conversion, slower turn over. Higher flow rate, lower conversion, higher turn over. Time difference between the two in the end? May not even be a significant difference.

Just my thoughts! ;)
Hope it makes sense.

[Dave C]

Everything you said makes sense to me ron. Given that description of the process, as it relates to time, where does the 45 minutes fit in? If it's 45 minutes contact time with the media then that's going to take tons (hundreds? thousands?) of passes through the media to equal that much time. And if it's not contact time with the media then what is it and how is it relevant? I was hoping that Somokey had some calculation/formula that would allow one to accurately and objectively measure the amount of media required for a given tank/bioload. That's what I assumed from his post.

IMO building a wet/dry is a relatively easy thing. I prefer to use an aquarium because it is meant to hold water, looks reasonably clean, won't degrade with time and fits under a tank stand. I try to use more media then necessary because I don't know the bioload. I may know it today but not next month. The media is probably not that big a decision when you consider how many tanks are running with one or two Hydro sponges, totally submerged with no problems. I use bio-balls because they are cheap, easy to clean and they work well. But I'll bet I could fill the tower with Lego pieces and my fish wouldn't suffer. What got my interest/dander in this thread is that the choice of media was being put forth as a scientific calculation that could be proven whereas the choice is really just one of personal preference.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I like Ron's reasoning. That's why I went with BioBalls.
Everyother week I remove a small sheet of coarse filter floss that rest on top of my Bioballs that is there for coarse filtration (gathers junk). Of course, I also have very, very coarse sponges in my aquarium oveflow for coarse filtration as well. I simply rinse them in aged water along with the filterfloss sheet.

I just assume Bioballs are kind of self cleaning so I don't do anything with those. Should I be? About once every other month, I vaccum, with a shop vac, the contents of the Sump below the Bioballs; to keep it clean looking more than anything.

[Smokey]

No Dave C. All information has been in print for many, many years. The expersts have done all this work/calculations before... .However some are not aware of it, have not bothered to research and read books and/or refuse to understand/accept such facts.

ODwyerPW - I agree with the concept that the bio-ball media can be self cleaning.

Ronca - you have a good understanding of how the bacteria work.
The 45 minute time, was based on expeiments by the poeple who do that research.

Actually, anyone who has done an Ammonia cycle ... can determine the time/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate; necessary.

MPE/MPO

Smokey

[Dave C]

You made a statement that there was a simple calculation that one could use to determine the media required for a given bioload. All I'm asking is for you to clarify this statement "determine how much surface area must be necessary for the convertation of the nh3 to no3's. plus the time required for the process." I assume you've read the books that detail how this is done. I am not aware of it, nor have I bothered to research it but I don't refuse to accept it. I'm not arguing with you here. I'm just asking you to explain your statement without using generalizations. If it's a simple calculation then surely you can provide the details here rather then pointing to unnamed books...

i.e. I have a 55g tank with five 6" adult Discus.

- how would you calculate the required surface area necessary for this bioload?
- how would you calculate the time required for the conversion?

[ronrca]

Just curious Smokey, where did the number 45mins come from? To be honest, I dont know and cant remember reading a specific time that ammonia gets converted to nitrites and so on. This time number however will be dependant on water conditions such as ph, temperature, food. It will also be dependant on surface area/water flow (bacteria on the side of the tank will not come into contact with as much 'food' as in a filter for example). I believe that the number 45mins was more or less given as an example. ??? Here again, it may be different for every tank. ;)

[daninthesand]

I would think there is no answer to the question" how long does conversion take?"

Its too vague. Its like asking how much would it cost to renovate my house?! LOL you gotta be more specific. ;)

If you could quantify it in a discus tank, say, for example what amount of nitrate or ammonia you wanted to convert then you might be able to calculate how long so and so ppms of ammonia could be converted. I'm sure its been done, but I too have not researched it.

Surface area is not the only thing that will affect this. Some bioball manufacturers claim that their design allows more even flow over the balls which is more efficient. I'm sure we have all noticed that in a biofilter that unless you disperse the flow of water fairly well and evenly over the media with some sort of drip tray or something, a lot of water flow is wasted because the water never reaches the surface of the ball where the bacteria grow. Paying attention to that in the design of the filter itself might supercede any small diferences in surface area to ball ratio, negating any excess cost for "higher surface area endowed balls" ( Did is just type that?)

I do remember reading years ago in advertisements about calculations that were purported to have been done comparing different brands of bioballs all claiming to be better than the next guys balls.....

Daniel

[Dave C]

I agree dan. Similarly it would be impossible to determine the amount of surface area necessary for your media. How could you do it? What is the bioload produced by five 6" Discus? It depends, how much do you feed them, how often, how much water do you change, what is the temp, what's the pH etc. How could you possibly incorporate all of these variables and come up with a formula that would tell you the necessary surface area? So you oversize your media, add to it with add'l filters if your bioload is too large or compensate with more water changes.

[Smokey]

<<edited in compliance with simplydiscus mission statement, pharagraph 2 and 3. Any problems amongst members to be dealt with on a personal basis via e-mail or pm.>>

[Dave C]

I accept information Smokey but you don't seem to have any for any of those that questioned your posts on this thread. I'm done al, don't bother to warn me.

p.s. How could I take your incoherent ramblings as serious? That would be like getting angry at the taunts of a 3 year old.

[Smokey]

Hmmm. a person who is not able to learn/understand ! Is a person who may not succeed.

The question I ask; and as many others are asking; - how many others will "that" person affect/given the information posted ??

Remember the suggestions .. water changes are a water of time; Natural foods are a waste of time; heating is not necceasry; sickness is a sign of a weak fish!

Over the last 100 years incrediable information has been documented.

Why live in the past .. Hmmm - to protect ones own behaviour/methods. Beliefs.

Hel3 , my 89 year old grand father believed he would go to Hell, if he did not pay tribute to a :""church.""".. He died anyways!!!!
He got dead .. the other got wealthy.. Hmm ; Perhaps persons wishing to purchase discus be very aware of this .

Greed is a very powerful marketing agent.

Smokey

Ps. My comments - are not directed at any selected member / breeder / hobbiest or passing person; on - this - the simplydiscus forum.

My appoligise if I may offend any singular person.

To all others .. beware -- there are pirates out there !! lol...



Other wise ; we have gotten way off the orginal topic !

Please continue to post your inquiries and accept the replys;;; with an open mind. Somethings do change .. while somew persons do not!!!


LOL - have a great day... Long Live the King [ discus].

[Dissident]

Just one question for all you DIY'ers out there, and since I am on this bing DIY kick:
Obviously to set up a wet-dry you need some kind of over-flow. How would I figure out how much water needs to be syphoned out of the tank and to the sump? Given what submersable pump is in use vs. how much water has to exit the tank, how do you figure this into the setup?

DIY overflow I have seen and would be easy enough to make:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/photos/art_diy_overflow_05.jpg

tony and other who might happento read this thread .

forget using bio-balls.

There is much more efficient media avaiable. Bio-balls are a left-over from the 3% soluation days.

Not as efficient as there are hyped too be.

If you want to understand - do a simple calculation. Determine the total surface area of a single media ball. As to the space/volume the ball consumes.

Next determine how much surface area must be necessary for the convertation of the nh3 to no3's. plus the time required for the process. Usually 45 minutes - under perfect conditions.

Then determine how many bio-balls will be necessary/ volume needed to be effective to remove the poisons in 45 minutes./ per given volume of water. AND then deterimne the totaly cost.

This is all based on the fish load. right. NOT ONE FISH IN A 55 GALLON TANK.

In my calculations.. a time ago ... bio balls were not cost effective! MPO.

A professor once told me: a company will rather spend money on adveretising; than improving the
product..

[ how many times has TIDE been improved] ??eg!

Just my personal insight.

Smokey



Smokey, i just hate to add to this but you got my curiousity going now...what are these calculations? what surface area is necessary to convert, say, 5ppm nh3 to no3's in 75 gallons of water? just as a baseline, no constant addition of nh3's from a fishload. or if its easier for your calculations, with say five 6" discus.

and no, at the moment i dont have the time to do the research. Us flatlanders need you mountain men to educate us. personally id at least like to know where this is in print so i can read up on it ;D

i think it would be a great help to everybody to share this, the best efficiency would be knowing just how much and what kind of filter media would best suit our needs, so we're not throwing in twice the bioballs or 3 times the foam we actually need.

Thanks Smoke

Josh

[Smokey]

howdy Josh;

good to see ya again. HOW is you new wife? Are you learnig anything new ?? LOLol.

time will put you in your place.

Smokey

[Smokey]

Dissident; A external over-flow posses a few problems \\MPO - please keep an open eye .

Money has nothing to do with success .. aka d.c,

MPO your overflow tubes are inaquete. JUSSST mpo./ mpe.. and lots of reality.

Smokey.. you are on the correct route. Please continue to learn.. as only a person would do.

[Dissident]

Dissident; A external over-flow posses a few problems \\MPO - please keep an open eye .

Money has nothing to do with success .. aka d.c,

MPO your overflow tubes are inaquete. JUSSST mpo./ mpe.. and lots of reality.



The image i posted is just a DIY external overflow that I have seen, not using. My question is: What is the proper flow, and how do you determine this?

[limige]

that setup pitured should do about 500 gph easy, but anything more you would have to double the siphon tubes and drainage into the actual filter.

this is what i've found anyway, i run a 500 mag drive on mine and the overflow is about maxed out.

[tony1313]

Thanks for all the useful info everyone. I took the easy way out this time, I bought an Aqua Clear wet/dry. Yeah I bought one. After rebuilding a 130gal tank and a stand for it I figured I owed myself a break! Next time around I will build my own.

Mike it sounds like your system is working out ok for you. BTW hows those wilds doing?

Tony

[GeeCharron]

Help help smokey. I'm just at the point of sizing up the media chambur for my wet & dry and need some hlep figuring out how big to make it. How do I size this thing. Do you need to no the tank size and the number of fish. The tank will be eithe my 50 or 125 and dont no how many fish Ill get but expect large beutiful guys. If there is a formula out there i cant find it and I've searched a ton. Send it to me direct if you dont want to share it here. Please I need it by Friday so I can get the mess out of my princesses kitchen. Just need something to tell me the serfice area of media I need and then I can take it from there.

<<edited in compliance with simplydiscus mission statement, pharagraph 2 and 3. Any problems amongst members to be dealt with on a personal basis via e-mail or pm.>>

[ronrca]

I agree Dan (reply #35)!

Surface area is not the only thing that will affect this. Some bioball manufacturers claim that their design allows more even flow over the balls which is more efficient. I'm sure we have all noticed that in a biofilter that unless you disperse the flow of water fairly well and evenly over the media with some sort of drip tray or something, a lot of water flow is wasted because the water never reaches the surface of the ball where the bacteria grow. Paying attention to that in the design of the filter itself might supercede any small diferences in surface area to ball ratio, negating any excess cost for "higher surface area endowed balls" ( Did is just type that?)

My thought on the bioballs is this! It depends on the method of filtering. For example, if the container or compartment is full of water at all times, great! However, in some designs (using a spraybar method), the water flows thru like a river thru the bioballs. This will then not spread out the water equally but water will flow thru the bioballs only in certain places (I hope that makes sense) therefore it does matter how efficiet the bioballs are. When using foam in this design, water tends to 'seap' thru rather than flow thru in certain areas because of the density.

Ive attached a pic to hoping clarify. In this example, bioballs would not be very good at filtering for the obvious reasons.

About sizing the filtering area! It will depend on the type of media perhaps but then again maybe not. Of course it is difficult to calcuate the specific area because it will depend on the tank (fish load for example which can vary). The best is to make it a good size for both bioballs and foam. I dont think you have to make it different sizes because you are using one or the other media because when using foam, you want a huge area so that the water will spread out and seap thru. If you dont have a large enough area, then the water will 'backup' unless you adjust the flow rate. On the other hand, bioballs probably will not have this problem for the obvious reason (density of material).

[Dave C]

I don't understand why that would be ron. In the wet/dry I show here the water flows straight through the bio-balls and sits in the sump. The water level in the sump is usually below the level of the balls, though I often run it so the bottom 4" are submerged. I don't use a spraybar but a drip tray does the same thing, cause the water to be spread out so it comes into contact with as much of the media as possible. Channeling is always a potential risk in any wet/dry filter but there's nothing unique about the picture you've shown that would make it unsuitable for bio-balls. The biggest concern I'd have about using foam in that filter or any filter is that it would get dirty and the flow of water would slow to such a point that it would overflow the tower. You make it sound like bio-balls are only effective when they are in a filter that has its media submerged. I disagree with that. I've got one filter where the media is submerged and another (pictured) where it is above the water. Both work well. The proper design is to have the media above the water so oxygenation is enhanced and the media does a better job.

[ronrca]

Ok! In my pic above, the water level is actually below the foam. When the water is running, there is actually around 1/8"-1/4" water on top of the foam which seaps thru the foam to the bottom. Imo, this is like 95% efficient because the water spreads out and flows in millions of small streams thru the tiny holes of the foam.

Using bioballs in this application, the water flowing thru the balls will not come into contact with as much area compared to foam. For example, the outer bioballs around the edge would hardly get any water flow and the ones more or less directly under the spraybar would get the majority. I would say that the efficieny be less based on surface area contact with water.

(btw, the biofilter has been running for 5 months now and I have not cleaned it yet! :-[ Maybe not a good thing but I dont think that it is necessary yet as it is running really well!)

Now, if the design incorporates foam just under the spraybar which will spread out the water, that would be a good thing as water will then seap thru the foam in millions of streams and fall down to the bioballs. On the other hand, just using foam you may be able to get away with a smaller media compartment then balls.

[Dave C]

I guess that could be ron. But I don't see anything unique about the design of your filter that would make it less effective for bio-balls. Mind you I've never been a fan of spraybars. I find a drip tray works quite well and is not prone to mechanical breakdown. The water hits the tray, the filter pad on the tray forces the water to spread out and it hits the media as a ton of tiny trickles rather then one stream. When I drilled the driptray I made the holes on the outsdie edges of the tray larger and the holes directly below the water pipes smaller so it would cause a more even flow to the media.

btw, when the filter pads on the driptray get dirty the water level rises there and if the filter had not been properly designed it could overflow the tower, going anywhere. In this case it just overflows the driptray and goes to the media tower, bypassing the prefilter/driptray. Even though yours has been operating for months I'd make sure that it will do the same thing.

As has been mentioned previously on this thread the biggest disadvantage of foam is that when it gets dirty it will get dirty right through the foam and is very difficult to clean without damaging the filter. It's the same thing that happens with AC foam or sponge filters so it's not something to worry about. I just find that bio-balls don't have that disadvantage.

[ronrca]

Just out of curiosity Dave, what are the dimensions of the bio compartment where the balls are in?

As you mention about the filter pad spreading out the water, you increase the efficiancy! That is good and in your design, without the filter pad, it would not be as efficient for reasons I previously mentioned. You do have a good point about the foam getting dirty and damaging the bio. This depends on the flow rate when the foam is dirty. So far after 5 months, it has not become a problem. If it were to, then I would have to clean them. I actually dont have an overflow on my biofilter. What I did instead was insert a 1" pipe that is around 2" higher than the top foam (only bypassing the higher dense foam but not the AC foam underneath). So, if and when the water level were to rise that high, it would start flowing thru the pipe bypassing the first 2 layers of media.

So, in conclusion, my opinion I guess, I think it really comes down to the design of the biofilter to maximize the media. Bioballs do offer the ease of maintainance/cleaning and when used together with foam, can offer a great, efficient biofilter. Foam is also a great filtering media and can be used independantly perhaps using a smaller compartment then using bioballs. The downside is the cleaning without harming the bio itself.

[Dave C]

Those towers are each 14"x12"x12". They are connected to four 55g tanks and have serviced those tanks when they each had eight 5-6" adults in them. I didn't build the filter though, it caem from Lifereef. It's about as well designed wet/dry filter as I've seen. The drip tray slides out so you can remove & clean the pre-filter. The overflow boxes work awesome and can handle 600gph supposedly. They've never lost the siphon in the 3 yeras that I've run them and have never let a tank overflow. If I were to do it again I'd drill the tanks but these boxes do work great.

I agree with your conclusion to a degree but I'd say that in any well designed filter you can use any kind of media you choose.

[OffBalanse]

to answer your question of building your own wet dry. i actually found full plans for one on marine-monsters.com/front/articles.html. the person uses a 20 gallons tank, and explains all the details of how to creat just about everything you will need, and some really good photos to go along with. best of luck!

[Smokey]

Hmmmm.

Smokey

[murthy]

This is a heavy topic.The required flow rate,time for convertion of ammo to nitrites/nitrates would depend on several factors....
1.Surface area of filtering media
2.Flow rate of the filter
3.Temperature of the water(higher the temp greater is the metabolic rate of bacteria)
4.Quantity of oxygenation(its an aerobic process)
5.Strain of bacteria cultured in the bio filter(possibly??)
6.Unknown factors ive not yet thot of...
In all this only 1,2 and 3 are known factors.the rest are unknown. :)thats prob why keeping discus(or any fish is still an art...otherwise it would be a step by step science!)all the same im still curious to know what is the ratio of bio media-no.of fish kept for an ideal filter.