Hardiest Discus for Beginner

[jules]

Which strains are the hardiest for Beginner Discus Keepers? So far I have read Turquoise and Pigeon Blood...

Thank you!!! ;)

[DarkDiscus]

I don't know about hardiest, but in my starter discus - 3 red turqs, 3 RSG, 3 blue diamonds and a Marlboro Red, I still have all 3 red turqs and they are big and healthy...

I also have one blue diamond. I ended up culling the RSG (except one who died), the marlboro and the other 2 BD. Some didn't grow well (I admit to some overcrowding) and some didn't end up meeting my standards.

The red turqs definitely seem tough and forgiving.

John

[Abercrombie6202]

Well i've heard that red turqs and tangerines are good discus to start out with.

I started out 2 days ago, with 1 red turq, 1 san merah, and 3 Pigeon bloods.

I don't know if you can say a strain is hardy, probably just depends on the fish.

[crazy4discus]

well i dont know about hardist fish for a beginniner but i always hear the truqs and pigeons are pretty easy to raise but to me as long as you know what your doing then you can raise any strain

[jules]

Is Mandarin Orange the same as a Tangerine Orange?
How about Blue Neon and Blue Diamond?

thanks for your input.

[April]

hi jules and welcome to simply. :wave:
where in canada are you? im in vancouver.
my only opinion is..that barred fish are easier as you can learn from their bars. if their stressed or not . pigeons sometimes before you realize their in trouble.its too late.
rt are hearty i think and they seem to be good parents.
really.its just what you fancy. if you want to eventually try a spawn.the darker fish are easier at attracting the fry.
the main thing is to try not to buy one here and one there and add them togeather. its a recipe for disaster. best if you can buy a group of 6 or so and grow them out togeather.

[DavidH]

Hey April, how about buying different strains from the same breeder and mixing them. Is this ok, or asking for trouble.

Thx Dave

[April]

no..most people mix the fish from the same breeder.
only time i wouldnt i guess is if your buying some of theres and some they just imported. but they are meant to quarantine first. before they sell.
guess its best to ask the breeder themselves if its advisable.

[Smokey]

howdey April; I still have not set up my msn. I am in the process of relocating - down into the valley.
What a move, yuck. and the last three days you have sent me snow ... 3" worth. Today it rained and washed it all away. Thank yu.

Now I can find all my glass, outside on the work table. Try cutting glass under the light of a moon. Exciting. lol.

When I am up and fully running I will send you a really "nice" message. ok.??

Love

Smokey

[jules]

Hi April, I am in Ottawa.
The furthest West I have been is Jasper and it certainly is beautiful. Hope to make it to Vancouver some day.
I am really enjoying my Discus.

[Jeff]

I would agree. RT are fairly hardy and inexpensive to get started with. :)

[fcdiscus]

Actually, fr some reason, I find Marlboro Reds and Red Melons are very hardy and alert fish. Look for an F1 generation red. JMO. Frank

[TheMutlu]

ı think Discus not hard kind of fish.

[John_Nicholson]

ı think Discus not hard kind of fish.

A healthy discus inclean water that is properly fed is nearly impossible to kill. It is when people buy less then healthy discus and then keep them in a marginal enviroment that they get in trouble.

-john

[Rudustin]

A healthy discus inclean water that is properly fed is nearly impossible to kill. It is when people buy less then healthy discus and then keep them in a marginal enviroment that they get in trouble.

-john Listen to John. He knows and that is the best truth that you will ever have from someone that really knows.

[pastry]

Listen to John. He knows and that is the best truth that you will ever have from someone that really knows.


I second this. As long as they're domestic and GOOD QUALITY then should easy (as long as you do the necessary water changes). I also like the comment on starting with discus that have bars. Thought that was a great point for learning.

[aquadon2222]

Which strains are the hardiest for Beginner Discus Keepers? So far I have read Turquoise and Pigeon Blood...

Thank you!!! ;)

Generally speaking, the ones that are closest to the Wild looks are hardier - the further you get from the natural species the more inbred and fragile they tend to be. I'd go with the red/blue turquoise.

[Tazalanche]

Generally speaking, the ones that are closest to the Wild looks are hardier - the further you get from the natural species the more inbred and fragile they tend to be. I'd go with the red/blue turquoise.
I don't think jules will get your reply to their question from 2003.
Last Activity 09-29-2006 09:33 AM

[kkdiscus]

For me, Albino are not easy to raise...

[Nick Klimkowski]

For me, Albino are not easy to raise...

They are a bit more challenging to breed as well.

[Skip]

Generally speaking, the ones that are closest to the Wild looks are hardier - the further you get from the natural species the more inbred and fragile they tend to be. I'd go with the red/blue turquoise.

*sigh*
Smh

[Trier20]

A healthy discus inclean water that is properly fed is nearly impossible to kill. It is when people buy less then healthy discus and then keep them in a marginal enviroment that they get in trouble.

-john

BINGO! I'm glad I actually read other posts because I was going to post some nearly identical.


-Brandon

[Batman]

That's good advice John
Keep up with a good diet and water changes :)

[rickztahone]

I don't think jules will get your reply to their question from 2003.
Last Activity 09-29-2006 09:33 AM

I thought no one had caught that, lol. That's to got to be the oldest resurrection I have ever seen, lol

[Skip]

I thought no one had caught that, lol. That's to got to be the oldest resurrection I have ever seen, lol


http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/028/427/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

[Skip]

http://www.protias.com/Pictures/Thread/Thread-Crap-Forget.jpg

[Elliots]

If you believe that domestic bred fish closest to wilds are hardiest Hans has Alequers, Tefes and maybe one other from Stendker. Personally I have no idea which Discus is hardiest but I remember years ago Heckels were said to be more difficult to keep.

[Second Hand Pat]

Generally speaking, the ones that are closest to the Wild looks are hardier - the further you get from the natural species the more inbred and fragile they tend to be. I'd go with the red/blue turquoise.

When you make such claims please link the source. Other wise it is just hearsay. My personal experience with wilds and domestics does not support this.

[Elliots]

Pat, I have no idea which are hardier, wild or domestic. As someone who apparently had both do you think one is hardier than the other? I have both in my tank but IDK which is hardier.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, I have no idea which are hardier, wild or domestic. As someone who apparently had both do you think one is hardier than the other? I have both in my tank but IDK which is hardier.

Elliots, I can not say where one is hardier then the other based on my personal experience. But I will say both do very well with proper husbandry techniques.

[nc0gnet0]

Generally speaking, the ones that are closest to the Wild looks are hardier - the further you get from the natural species the more inbred and fragile they tend to be. I'd go with the red/blue turquoise.

Seriously??

So a Wattley turquoise that has been inbred for 12 generations is still going to be healthier than an F1 pigeon blood? Where or where do you come up with this ****?

[Skip]

Seriously??

So a Wattley turquoise that has been inbred for 12 generations is still going to be healthier than an F1 pigeon blood? Where or where do you come up with this ****?

http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111217043161/thebiglebowski/images/7/7a/The-big-lebowski-reunion-animated-gifs-15.gif

[yim11]

http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111217043161/thebiglebowski/images/7/7a/The-big-lebowski-reunion-animated-gifs-15.gif

LMFAO. Think the order of them is Rick then Skip then Nicholson.

[nc0gnet0]

LMFAO. Think the order of them is Rick then Skip then Nicholson.

Dam, john put on a few pounds, but I am loving my hair!

[vanslam]

A healthy discus inclean water that is properly fed is nearly impossible to kill. It is when people buy less then healthy discus and then keep them in a marginal enviroment that they get in trouble.

-john

Like John said. I got 8 healthy pigeons from Hans over a month ago and all are well and almosy ready to come out of quarintine. There was a stress time when the ammonia went crazy and i had to do multiple water changes and Amguard applications but they servived it well. By the way when you buy fish from Hans he is always there to give you help advice and direction.

[forhonor]

I agree..


ı think Discus not hard kind of fish.

[aquadon2222]

Discus do require more care then the average fish - thats' part of our attraction to them. You can thrown a catfish int a bucket of mind water and he'll be fine....discus not so much. If your'e committed to the extra care, go for it, it you just want some things swimming in your take go with hardier fish.

[DISCUS STU]

Those two are the hardiest, Pidgeon Bloods which are also directly related to, and derived from, the Turquoise strain. Browns are also pretty tough.

I stay away from live foods and even make my own Turkey Heart feed. Live foods are a double edged sword that can initially show great results until the fish get sick with parasite and bacterial infestation. These days you can get great info. from the internet. Not like the old days when you had to buy books, talk to guys in shops who may or may not have know what they were talking about, and find old magazine articles.

Good luck! It's a great hobby (keeping Discus) but pretty intensive. If you're willing to put in the work you should get great results.

[aquadon2222]

When you make such claims please link the source. Other wise it is just hearsay. My personal experience with wilds and domestics does not support this.

So I'm speaking in broad scientific terms. In Population Genetics, it is well understood that offspring which are bred to select for certain traits, that they develop a narrower gene pool, and they have a higher likelihood of having defects, fertility issues etc. (look at highly inbred alblinos - they are mostly blind and would disappear within a generation in the wild, but can survive in a captive, hand fed tank.

Now, we have a completely separate issue: if you take Wilds and put them into a domestic situation, they may struggle due to a radical environmental change, but not because of lack of genetic hardiness. Seems our discussion is semantic in nature about how one defines "Hardiness" in a fish.

[aquadon2222]

When you make such claims please link the source. Other wise it is just hearsay. My personal experience with wilds and domestics does not support this.

What are your experiences with Wilds and Domestics vis a vis their hardiness?

[aquadon2222]

Seriously??

So a Wattley turquoise that has been inbred for 12 generations is still going to be healthier than an F1 pigeon blood? Where or where do you come up with this ****?

Again, it all depends on how you define hardiness and in what environment. A brightly colored Pigeon will be on the menu of Peackcock Bass for lunch as soon as it hits the water. The Turqs with stress bars are closer in appearance to Wilds and would have a better chance of surviving the dangerous waters of jungle.

[fugu_88]

Which strains are the hardiest for Beginner Discus Keepers? So far I have read Turquoise and Pigeon Blood...

Thank you!!! ;)

Turquoise is the best beginner fish. My favorite fish.. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

So I'm speaking in broad scientific terms. In Population Genetics, it is well understood that offspring which are bred to select for certain traits, that they develop a narrower gene pool, and they have a higher likelihood of having defects, fertility issues etc. (look at highly inbred alblinos - they are mostly blind and would disappear within a generation in the wild, but can survive in a captive, hand fed tank.

Now, we have a completely separate issue: if you take Wilds and put them into a domestic situation, they may struggle due to a radical environmental change, but not because of lack of genetic hardiness. Seems our discussion is semantic in nature about how one defines "Hardiness" in a fish.


Again, it all depends on how you define hardiness and in what environment. A brightly colored Pigeon will be on the menu of Peackcock Bass for lunch as soon as it hits the water. The Turqs with stress bars are closer in appearance to Wilds and would have a better chance of surviving the dangerous waters of jungle.

You speak in broad scientific terms yet narrow to very specific cases to support your position :crazy:


What are your experiences with Wilds and Domestics vis a vis their hardiness?

I have kept wild fish for four years and maintain them in a RO/tap mix. I have had them pair and spawn on numerous occasions. During this time I have kept a few domestics and find they do very well in my tap water. Proof of my successes and failures can be found in my homesteader section. So again in my personal experience fish maintained with proper husbandry do very well indeed and are therefore hardy.

[nc0gnet0]

Again, it all depends on how you define hardiness and in what environment

Normally, one would define the environment based on the original question which was:

Hardiest Discus for Beginner

Seems pretty obvious to me the intent of the question was which strain is the hardiest to keep in an aquarium, which makes this statement: "A brightly colored Pigeon will be on the menu of Peackcock Bass for lunch as soon as it hits the water."
utterly pointless.

[Mikemeets]

I have Blue turq and pigeon bloods in a semi cycled tank and i take my hat off to them for handling the stress so well that i placed on them like an idiot i thought the tank was cycled, added cycled media from a nother tank to help out on the cycle and doing huge water changes is doing wonders for the tank

[Skip]

Hardiest Discus for Beginner??

Hardest<---------------------->Easiest
Fry, Juvies, Young Adults, Adults..

[pyroo]

Quite a few people have told me that blue diamonds were a little bit more fragile, but surprisingly, they are growing faster than my turquoise!

[Crunchy]

Agree with pigeons & turquoise. Albinos are more fragile in my experience.

[DISCUS STU]

Red Turqs, Pidgeon Bloods, Tangerines, Red Mellons (the last 3 are all Pidgeon Blood derivatives and all originally derived from Red Turqs mutations, or so I've read) are the easiest, toughest fish, and pretty forgiving.

I used to have problems with Snakeskins but eventually got a beautiful female to breed with a Red Turq. Male. She is currently being medicated for Popeye and Dropsy, which she suffers from on a regular basis while none of my other fish do. There used to be something called a Ghost Discus (where do they get these names?) that looked weak and was very weak. Not sure if they even still breed them.

Even with strong breeds, you can always find all kind of C grade junk dumped on the market of all types. It takes some time and experience to know what to look for if buying small fish from local pet shops, as many of the small ones that look good and very colorful are juiced (hormones for color) in Asia, where most Discus are bred. I purchased two scribbled Snakeskin types at a shop for $16 each that look like they will be great fish but this usually isn't the case. Buying from local breeders where you can pick them yourself is usually the best way to go.

[aquadon2222]

For example, I have read on these forums and elsewhere that albinos have very poor eyesight and will often get out eaten by other fish; as a result, again from other posts here, they tend to grow slower and not get as large. Their poor eyesight is the result of very specific inbreeding which can limit their sight. If someone with more experience can debunk this theory please do - I've got a few nice albinos and I want them to grow like the rest of their tank mates.

[aquadon2222]

Seriously??

So a Wattley turquoise that has been inbred for 12 generations is still going to be healthier than an F1 pigeon blood? Where or where do you come up with this ****?

I think you mis-read my post?

[aquadon2222]

Hardiest Discus for Beginner??

Hardest<---------------------->Easiest
Fry, Juvies, Young Adults, Adults..

This has only to do with age and doesn't address the biology of strains.

[aquadon2222]

Yes, go with turqoise...Stendker is diligent about not trying to crate new strains, which require a lot of inbreeding. You will not find strains with Stendker called "Firecracker red Panda Dragon explosion". They stick closely to the indigoes discus strain, and they will tend to be hardier.

[aquadon2222]

Big Lebowski isn't someone who'd I'd listen to about genetic hardiness of any species.

[Skip]

This has only to do with age and doesn't address the biology of strains.

It would not matter which strain a beginner gets.. an adult fish would be easier to start with than fry...


Big Lebowski isn't someone who'd I'd listen to about genetic hardiness of any species.

lol.. u are saying ur better at discus info than THE DUDE? ..
blasphemy

[nc0gnet0]

I think you mis-read my post?

I read it just fine, maybe you need to re-word it.

Let me refresh your memory............



Generally speaking, the ones that are closest to the Wild looks are hardier - the further you get from the natural species the more inbred and fragile they tend to be. I'd go with the red/blue turquoise.

Your saying that if a discus looks like a wild, that means it hasn't been inbred for several generations. I am saying that assessment is a load of cr@p.

Where is the science that backs of your ridiculous claims?

[nc0gnet0]

Yes, go with turqoise...Stendker is diligent about not trying to crate new strains, which require a lot of inbreeding. You will not find strains with Stendker called "Firecracker red Panda Dragon explosion". They stick closely to the indigoes discus strain, and they will tend to be hardier.

lol, this argument is somewhat contradictory to your claim.

While I am not making a statement as to which (Stendker vs Asian) are more hardy, I will tell you that there is a lot more genetic diversity in Asian fish than there is in Stendker, It is the one thing Stendker is known for, strains that breed true. Doing this requires more work, and more generations of line breeding.

[nc0gnet0]

Long story short, it all depends on which genetic mutation the domestic line in question the fish carries. Some of the mutation are indeed more fragile, these tend to be the the ones ruled by recessive genes (not always) such as:

* Albinos
* Goldens


While some of the strains that rely on the dominant mutations are actually as hardy or possibly even hardier, than their wild counterpart such as:

* Pigeon bloods
* Snow whites

A few I have not worked with enough to have an opinion either way such as Blue diamond and or Snake skins.

Just because a fish has a strong resemblance to a wild fish is no way to tell how many generations that fish has been line bred for.

[aquadon2222]

Long story short, it all depends on which genetic mutation the domestic line in question the fish carries. Some of the mutation are indeed more fragile, these tend to be the the ones ruled by recessive genes (not always) such as:

* Albinos
* Goldens


While some of the strains that rely on the dominant mutations are actually as hardy or possibly even hardier, than their wild counterpart such as:

* Pigeon bloods
* Snow whites

A few I have not worked with enough to have an opinion either way such as Blue diamond and or Snake skins.

Just because a fish has a strong resemblance to a wild fish is no way to tell how many generations that fish has been line bred for.


Your posts make sense, unlike others who've simply given up and default to the Cohen brothers films.

So part of our dispute may have to do with how the term "hardy" is defined. If a Wild is taken and bred with other Wilds, they'd do better in the Wild, even if they were technically line bred after being removed from the wild. Perhaps they'd be more susceptible to pathogens from the tank breeding strains. In the context of the OP, which ones are hardiest in a sterile tank situation, I doubt it really matters as long as they're properly cared for.

That said: I will quote the open paragraph of a "Inbreeding depression" is the reduced biological fitness in a given population as a result of inbreeding - ie., breeding of related individuals. Population biological fitness refers to its ability to survive and reproduce itself. It is often the result of a population bottleneck. In general, the higher the genetic variation or gene pool within a breeding population, the less likely it is to suffer from inbreeding depression."
--Institute of Evolutionary Biology

I just think the OP would be better off with some Blue and red Turks than "Albino Fire Dragon Explosion."

[nc0gnet0]

It is often the result of a population bottleneck. In general, the higher the genetic variation or gene pool within a breeding population, the less likely it is to suffer from inbreeding depression."

Nobody here is arguing that continual line-breeding doesn't weaken a particular line. It is a proven fact.

What I am arguing is your perception of which strains have been line bred, which ones haven't, and to what extent. Your complete over simplification of simply doing a quick visual of the fish, and saying "those that look like wilds" have been line bred less than the more exotic looking hybrids is quite often (not always) false.

I can take two hybrids cross them and produce turqs from that crossing. It happens all the time.

A turq strain can be line bred for several generations, in an attempt to produce a rounder fish with redder eyes, better shape, larger, etc etc. Piworski comes to mind.

Responsible breeders are fully aware of the net results of line breeding and as a result will occasionally introduce fresh genetic material into a particular strain they have been line breeding for several generations.

I could make a counter argument to your claim (using your own logic), saying that because the many mutations that have been propagated in captivity, the genetic pool of domestics is more diverse than that of the wilds, and therefore they are in fact hardier (again using your logic). Bear in mind, I am not making that argument, but rather pointing out the many flaws that your argument has.

[Skip]

Your posts make sense, unlike others who've simply given up and default to the Cohen brothers films.


ooh, its not others.. its just me.

but i have not "GIVEN UP".. the knowledge that you have attained since you started your first discus tank in Dec./2013 leaves me speechless..