F1 Discus from wild parents.....don't expect much...

[Jeffery_Doty]

Hello Everyone,

My experience so far from growing out F1 spawns from wild discus has been less than impressive. I have grown out fry from:

Heckel x Alenquer
Brown x Brown (2 different pairs)
Kaijuarah

All spawns have been:

More fragile than domestics
Much more slow growing than domestics
More susceptable to flukes (parasites) than domestics
More susceptable to bacteria than domestics
More shy and reserved than domestics

This has been my experience, and may not agree with others who have also worked with wild discus.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love wilds, I want F1 from wild parents, but I have learned to expect less than when I 1st started. I am very curious what the F2, F3, etc. will be like, so I will continue with the project. I do think we need the wild blood back in our breeding programs, and it is important for the continuation of the hobby. But, if someone is looking to turn a profit from raising F1 wild discus, don't get your hopes up! It is a long, bumpy road.

Jeff
Oregon

hey Jeff,
do you have anymore pictures of fry that have grown some??
david

[Paulio]

Jeff,

I had wild greens working for a while. F1's about 10% were good enough to move on to breed out further. F2's it jumped strongly to about 1/3. I didnt get to F3's. Out of the net full you sent me I would say probably a third show promise although it is a little early to tell. Are you lettnig the parents raise them or moving to artificial?

Paul

[wildthing]

I completely agree, my own experiences tell me the same thing...especially on size variation.
I don;t bother with wild on wild any more, I see it as a total waste of time. There is nothng any of us can try that hasn't been done already years ago in Asia anyway, so the best we can do is improve & strengthen existing lines by using one dom. parent & one wild, preferable one that has characteristics that complement those we are trying to improve in the domestic line & not clash with them ie: royal blue wild with a domestic red/turq. for the striations or a good RSG with a spottd variety domestic. Even this way a good % will still be garbage in the F1.
Knowing this & the state of the market was why I thought those Curipera prices were crazy high $$s



David

[korbi_doc]

??? ??? Geez guys, I am really sorry to hear that!! I really love those darkred/burgundy curiperas & Kaijuarahs. I don't want them necessarily to breed, as most of you do, just love the colors. But, you know, that probably is not an unexpected occurrence. I thought perhaps the progeny would be colorful enough to fill my needs anyway. Guess that's not gonna happen real soon, alas. Perhaps some of those nonbreeding fish will be available when y'all find out they won't do the deed! ??? Dottie ::) ::)

[yogi]

First I want to say I agree with almost all of the above. It makes you realize that what Jack Wattley accomplished was differcult to do.

It also make me think of some questions we can't answer. How long does it take for a wild discus in the wild to go from wiggler to full grown adult? How old are wild discus when they spawn in the wild? If pairs lay a couple of hundred eggs every couple of weeks in the wild. How many survive and grow up to spawn? (5,10, ???) When a group of discus are caught in the wild. How many different spawns make up that group? (50, 100, more) How many discus does someone like Oliver go through? To find the few that he can sell for $200 or $250 a piece? Is the slow growth of our f1's normal as compared to the growth of a wild in the wild?

Here are some pictures of my f1 wild male heckel x wild female madeira babies. In my opinion the fish do not look good in size or shape as compared to what domestics would look like. I also have not culled any from this batch. I just want to show you all what I think is the start of a heckel center bar on fish that are only about 1.5 inches.

[yogi]

another picture

[yogi]

Jason warned me that heckel fry seem to stay pointy for a long time.

[yogi]

last picture for now

[Jeffery_Doty]

Yogi,

They don't look all that bad. Considering the potential they have in future crosses, I would definitely grow them out.

Is your pair still spawning?

Jeff
Oregon

[DarkDiscus]

Jerry,

I also think they look pretty good and healthy. Who knows what they will look like when they get big? It's a pretty impressive feat anyway and like Jeff said, they could be very useful for future crosses.

John

[heckelcrazy]

hi guys, just thought I would put my 2cents worth in. I have bred domestics like most of u for a few years and have always wanted to introduce wild blood into my stock but in New Zealand wild fish are virtually unheard of. I agree that a good quality wild rather than attempting to line breed to other wilds would be a very useful fish to strengthen a good quality domestic line. Personally I would attempt a specific goal-->e.g wild RSG with domestic RSG with the goal being eventually to achieve good eyes, shape, colour, and the size that the wilds seem to achieve. BTW who has the best RSG domestics in ur opinions???. I have also thought a curipera x red melon or similar would be a nice fish. What do u think?

[yogi]

Yes I'm going to grow them out. The reason I say they don't look good in size or shape is the fact they are 3 months old. Compared to domestics I expected them to be larger and rounder by now.

The pair is kind of still breeding. People might say men are dogs, but this female madeira is a real ho. I still have 11 adult discus in a 115.

A couple of weeks ago she went to the other side of the tank and bred with a different heckel. His center bar is not as nice as heckel number one. The day they should of hatched they ate them.

She then went back and bred with heckel number one. After breeding the two heckels fought and heckel number two won. They got to free swimming with the wrong dad raising them, and then they wre eaten.

As of today I have wigglers that should go free swimming Saturday morning by her and heckel two.

Last night my full spotted leopard snakeskin bred with one of my nicest wild rsg's. The eggs were gone when I got up this morning. This pair formed in a 140 with 12 adult discus in it.

I filter all my tapwater with peat. My tanks are in the low 5's for ph, conductivity around 220 and temp about 83.

As far as breeding discus I do not have the room or space. I also don't think I'm willing to make the extra time needed to do it. I also have no goals as far as breeding discus.

I will keep you all updated with pictures. If the fish keep breeding I probably will raise a couple more spawns and thats about it.

[DarkDiscus]

Jerry's goals DO include getting his REALLY big tank up and running - that would make quite the specatacle with all those wilds cohabitating and breeding!

John

PS. At least it would make his friends happy to get to see that tank the next time they visit Florida...

::)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I thought so....... LOL

Slow growing and alot that was said above.....

Good Post Jeff! 8)

[wall_o_fish]

Thanks for the post, Jeff! I love to hear anything I can about wild breeding lines!

scott

[Jeffery_Doty]

Thanks Everyone.

It is good to get the feedback on the F1's. Here are a few pictures that I took tonight of my F1's. Realize that these discus are over 1 year old, and only 2.5 - 3.5 inches in size. Small for their age compared to domestics, but I think they will continue to grow, and get to 4 or more inches after another year. If they do, I will be happy to continue to work with them and try to get F2 generation fish going.

Here is a Heckel / Alenquer cross.

Jeff
Oregon

[Jeffery_Doty]

F1 brown.

[Jeffery_Doty]

More F1 brown.

[oodi]

and only 2.5 - 3.5 inches in size

Jeff,

Great things come in small packages... they look wonderful!!

Judi
:)

[yogi]

moved up for jn4u

[reeferman33]

Thanks everyone

[rickmiles]

Well it's 14 year later, does anybody else want to contribute on breeding f1 nowadays etc.

[ClayT101]

I am curious as well. I wanted F1's, but could never find any. I now have a bunch of wild blues, I think i might have 1 pair, but they show no signs of wanting to lay eggs.