More Q's

[MonkeeFish]

This is about PH sorry if i ask to many questions. I have been doing alot of reading on PH but i mean Once u check your ph from the tap and after letting it age. Do u still check it once in a water or do you juss guess it will alwayz stay that way. I mean things happen and the PH can change i guess? So how do i know that every dai when i pour the aged water into my fish tank that it will be the same ph as before? sorry if it's confusing not shure how to put it.

[April]

hi. what is your ph out of the tap and after its aged? did you test it?
let us know. if you do daily wc;s it should stay fairly stable unless you have very soft water.
or if you have a high bioload it could falll.

[Smokey]

Monk .. you have mail

[Abercrombie6202]

Just check your ph of the tap water, your aged water (after it has sat in teh storage tnak for 24 hours) and your aquarium water they should all be around the same or atleast make sure your aged water and tank water are the same. I'd chekc the ph if the fish are acting strange, their is a disease, or when you jsut want to know. Checking once a week i think is a waste because i did that for 4 months and test kits are pretty expesnive after awhile!!

[Smokey]

Monk; you have mail.

Hmmmm .. I always check the pH of my add water. To make sure it matches the Ph I require.

But most important, in my tanks, is the KH. I like to maintain 45 ppm. The pH can fuctuate a few decimal points, not a big deal.
M.P.E.'s - Water numbers can change, unexpectivitly.

Until I know, I am confident with the water in my tanks; the pH, the KH, the temperature, etc. I always check to make sure everythign is correct. This way I learn what the numbers are and should be.

Test kits - expensive. How much are "your" discus worth ??

Smokey

ps. mine are worth more than a test kit or two.

[Abercrombie6202]

Test kits - expensive. How much are "your" discus worth ??

Smokey

ps. mine are worth more than a test kit or two.


I'm jsut saying, i'm confident with my water parameters, that i don't think i need to buy test kit after test kit to check ph, weekly. I could use the money to buy more discus, aquairums, heaters, BW, etc... of course the discus are worth more than a test kit. But IMO don't think i need to check PH unless i know something is wrong or could go wrong!

[RyanH]

Ok, I just need to speak up here and get a few things off of my chest.

What I am seeing here are certain individuals that have been keeping Discus for an entire month coming onto this board asking questions and then, when they do not get an answer that they want, they throw the advice that was given to them back into the face of the person that gave it. Then, they turn around and try to give advice to others as if they are suddenly 30 year veterans of fishkeeping.

This REALLY bothers me.

People like Smokey and Brew and Carol and many, many others on this board, have been doing this for a long, long time. These are highly skilled people who know their stuff. They could probably be making good money by actually charging people for the knowledge and time that they give. But they don't. They give it away for for free and for this reason and many others they should be treated with respect. Their time is much more valuable and it could better be served doing things other than arguing with a 14 year old kid.

I seeing these people being constantly snuffed by someone who seems to have all of the answers already. This is not right and it needs to stop.

If you do not agree with them or if it is not the advice that you want to hear. Go get it somewhere else, make it up as you go along, ask your magic 8 ball, whatever. I don't care. If you want to check your pH only during leap years, then fine but please stop talking to these people like they are idiots. They deserve our respect and gratitude and absolutely nothing less.

jmho
-Ryan

[Abercrombie6202]

I know that probably bothers you, but i'm just stating my opinion about ph checking, usually water parameters don't need to be checked every day. I've only kept discus for about a month, but that doesn't mean it's my first time with fish. Because water parameters doesn't only mean you can know about it when you keep discus. And i don't need to keep discus to know about water parameters. I have had success with all kinds of fish without checking ph daily. I'm just giving my opinion. isn't this a board where we give our opinions and our advice and lets say our advice is wrong, then someone can correct it, but bashing someone about their opinion is wrong. I'm sure not every person on this board checks their water everyday. I'm not trying to say anybodies OPINION is wrong. I'm just giving my opinion as well. Out of all the times i've checked my Ph of aged, tap and tank water it's all been the same and ph doesn't change that often, but i do check the ph once in awhile to make sure. Maybe i gave the vibe off that i never check my ph, but that is incorrect. Sorry for making you take it that way because that is not what i meant. JMO

Adam

[MonkeeFish]

Eh no need to fight, juss a general discussion. Everyone has their own way of doing things some may agree others may not. We all respect smokey,carol and them elders i bet cuz i noe i do. Smokey can afford to have test his ph at every water change but most of us dont and by stating that is not disrespecting anyone so please no need to get angry.

[Debbie]

I would recommend testing from the tap once in a while, every 3 months or so, after aged when you test tap, and once a week in the tank. I test twice a week with each water change (actually before and after each water change). If your water is stable I don't think that you need to test as often, but I just like to know (and it satisfies the chemist in me).

[MonkeeFish]

i c i c thanks for all the great replies. I juss wanted to be shure cuz i was feeling insecure about the whole ph thingy but thanks.

[Smokey]

Monk; and all others .. it is not that I can afford to test my water every day; it is because I test the water - that I realize just how much a change can occur. I have lived in different areas, over the last couple of years.

Where I am now they are installing new water mains, new plants .. I need to know what the water is .

The test kits give me a consistance, I can relate to.

Ph is stable, out of the tap - 8.5. the kh.gh is contsant - 450 ppm.

I conditon my water; before W/C's. I test to make sure the numbeers are similar.

Nitratres - they always acumulate. A test kit lets me know exactly what they are ... and if a water change is necessary.

Fry - wow - lots of water changes. Lots of NH3 output.

After awhile - i get to know when to do the w/c. by habit, by time, by feeding routine. food in -- waste out.

Thank you for your time.

Smokey

[lesley]

Just my little bit of personal experience.

Water pH can change dramatically!!!! The water I use is normally at 6.8-7.0. Got complacent and thought well I know what my pH is!!!! In one of my tanks, discus started to look a little unhappy, went the ammonia-nitrate route and all was normal. Then suddenly a very nice youngster died and that night one of the eyes in the survivors turned white. pH crash. Tested the water and it was below my test kit limits. Tested the replacement water and it was also below the test kit. Realised that we had had heaps of rain and I should have expected a change. Then of course when I added bicarb soda to raise pH and try get a reading of kH I overcompensated. I've had some very unhappy fish and it's taken a month to get the tank back to normal. This could have been avoided by routine pH testing.

I've been testing the water daily so that I know exactly what I am adding and don't make things worse. I have been surprised at the little differences. I guess normally these minor differences would not matter, but it does show that it does fluctuate.

I'll shortly be going off the daily testing, but I think I will be sticking to at least weekly testing in the future.

[Abercrombie6202]

Before i had discus i only had a problem with my waterchanges a couple times. But often the water in my local area stays about the same throughout the year. A check my ph once in awhile, but i'm confident as i've always had the same ph for about 6-9 months atleast!

[ronrca]

Test kits are good but time consuming perhaps. You can buy ph meters from Randal that you just stick in the tank and it gives you a reading. Its probably a good idea to test ph at least on a weekly basis for one simple reason. You have so much money/time invest in these beauties and then to have them suffer and die just because you are too lazy to check on the water parameters. Ouch! That hurts! ;)

[Mykiss]

Hi Monkee, like April and myself, we are situated in Vancouver BC where our water is relatively soft and a bit acidic. I am not sure what April does, but I am guessing she does what I do about pH. That is, I don't test my aged water ph all the time but every once in a while i.e. every 3-4 water changes. From experience, the water here doesn't change all too often, but like Lesley said, you never know when it will change. It may be best to check with other people who live around you to see what the pH is like. If they say it fluctuates a lot, then yes, do constant pH chacks every water change, but if it is relatively stable, maybe every other one or every 3. good luck!
PT

[RWG]

even though your water peremeters may never change. i don't like not knowing.I got a combo meter from Randal and now i can check my water when ever i want. it's paid for itself just making me feel better. ;D ;D ;D

[Mykiss]

That is a good point RWG, using a meter would be the best option. You can test your water any time, however, in my situation, spending >$100 at once is not feasible, but spending ~$10 is. I guess it all depends on your budget. CHeers
PT

[Abercrombie6202]

Can someone tell me a little bit more about randal's Ph test thing? i'm very interested

[nowings]

I check my ph with my water changes which are done EVERYDAY! Before and after in both the storage tank and the fish tank. I also have a Ph meter which makes it easier.
My fish are to important to me that to just "assume" everything is good or tocheck it when there is a problem!!

I once read some where that Discus are not for people who cant devoted daily time to them!!!!

Nancy

[MonkeeFish]

devotion is only one of the many factors to keeping discus. Because i bet most of us are busy doing things to get thru our days. Some like me have pently of time to change the ph,do the w/c etc etc but some dont but i do not blame them or say they have no right to keep discus!!

thanks for all the great reply once again
Johnny

[Nightowl]

I still check ph the old fashioned way, glass tube & brom. blue. I've been doing this for so many years now that I can even determine ph levels well below 6.0,although the kit tests from 6.0-7.6. Of course, really low levels are not desirable....ph meters have to be recalibrated from time to time.
I am lucky here on Long Island(N.Y.). The water from the tap is usually ph7.6, GH 5, KH 4(degrees... multiply x 17.9 for ppm.) I really only have to adjust the temp. and dechlor. before use. The high ph does not affect the tanks all that much because the water is fairly soft. In other words, the ingoing water is changed more by the remaining water in the tank than the other way around. The ph does come up but not drastically. With adult fish I can do 45% water changes w/ no ill effect. The fish love it!!!!! The main thing you have to keep an eye on is the KH(carbonate hardness) of your water. If this is three degrees or less. ph can CRASH. There is a product by Hagen( a liquid) that claims to raise kh without raising ph.This is rare, because when you add something to raise the kh(carbonates & bicarbonates), it uses up existing acids and your ph can rapidly rise. As Lesley said(Hi Lesley!), when she had a ph crash and added bicarb the ph went up too high, too fast. This is because the water was soft.....and reacted quickly to the bicarb. Anyway, I haven't used the Hagen liquid stuff yet but I think tomorrow at work I'm going to use it on a row of tanks and see how it goes.
I used to check ph levels on tanks after a water change but I no longer do because it was usually near what I expected it to be.... one of the bonuses of keeping fish(on and off) for forty years.
Factors for keeping discus, such as devotion? Regular bouts with temporary insanity....... J.T. on L.I.

[Smokey]

^To the few , who are more interested in their discus than their social popularity. Thank you. You will have a long term relation with these Kings.

Others ..well , good luck and move one.,

Smokey \This is my own personal opion, SimplyDiscus is not reponsdsabile for my person comminets. AND expierence.

Good luck, to those that believe "others" do not fit into their beliefs.!!!

Smokey

[MonkeeFish]

Smokey wut do you mean by that?????


quote "Good luck, to those that believe "others" do not fit into their beliefs.!!!" unquote

please explain i would like to noe wut's going on in oyur mind about that!!

[Not2Day]

It may be my background in Martial Arts and Koi keeping that effects my reply. I understand, after over 30 years of fish keeping that I really do not know much. I sit at the feet of masters.. and only ask questions. This site has a wonderful and varied knowlege base, each with his or her own special spectrums of increasing knowlege. Simply Discus is a great place for all of us to learn and share. To contribute,IMHO, you should have real knowlege and practical experience. I obtained my first discus in 1967 and am amazed at how the breed has changed and just how much sources like Simply Discus have helped. Just my .02. And Adam... Randal's meters are the the cheapest and the best. I am going to be ordering an R.O. system from him soon. In Japan, they say that if you keep the water, the fish will keep themselves.
Dave

[MonkeeFish]

Not2day wut does that saying really mean. You got my attention on that one "if you keep the water, the fish will keep themselves" interesting saying.

[April]

Heh MYKISS. our water can amaze you how much it can change. i have one of Randalls ph meters and i use it everytime i start a wc now .out of the tap about 3 weeks ago before all this rain it was down to 5.5 slowly its been climbing and now is back into the 6's but never the same everyday.
i use crushed oyster shells and i also use kent ro right to add minerals for growth and to get the hardness up. my growth on the young ones is far faster.
Monkee. the saying means...you take care of your water....you fish will smile from ear to ear and do very well. theres a saying around the forums and it is.....the kiss method which means keep it simple basically. and the other one is if your fish arent looking happy.....GDAWC. =go do a water change.

[MonkeeFish]

hahaha thanks april for telling me those things
really glad you did thanks

johnny

[Not2Day]

Johnny,
I think the saying means: First we are water keepers.
KISS... One of my favorites.. also meant Keep It Simple Stupid. Keep your water as pristine as possible. Do not rely on your filters to do your work. Keep your water quality as consistent as humanly possible. Discus keeping is a pain in the a$$ compared to other species. I think most on this board would agree that the extra work is well worth it. I also raise and show bettas. Talk about a lotta work!! Each male must be kept in his own tank and the water needs to be changed 80-90% daily. They are worth it too. My next goal is to show discus that I have raised in my own home. That is the ultimate and just shows how good Cary is. Anyone with a fat wallet can purchase winning show fish. Kinda like adopting a great looking child. Much betta to show your own children and even better... your grandchildren.
Dave

[MonkeeFish]

Post some pic of your discus rite now Not2day heheh wanna see how they are. From wut i have seen soo far the discus shure look like it's worth the time and effort.

[garryg]

G'day all
Firstly let me introduce myself this is my first post & I am
Lesley's other half so whilst I am a newcomer to the forum I have been reading your questions & answers for some time. It was because I felt deeply about this particular thread that I insisted against my wifes protests that I register and have my say("you be nice now Garry"). I have enormous respect for the treasure chest that is this forum, the experience,humour & patience that you long term keepers of the worlds most gorgeous and satisfying fish (if you do it right, and the most frustrating if you get it wrong) show to us beginners. My problem is what I think is an inherent flaw in the system of designations given to members. for instance a child of tender years with one months Discus experience has the tag of senior member(with four stars) whilst someone who I know has forty years experience has three stars & the designation of just a full member. If I have worked it out correctly this appears to be based on the number of posts made, regardless of content. So if I say for instance that we should feed Discus
Strychnine three times a day & say it for 365 posts I might become a senior member & have the respect that should come with that title! I may in fact be a new member for a long time if it relys on posts. If there is anybody that is still hanging in there after this diatribe I apologise for trying to preach on my first attempt at a post but you will be pleased to know that I will only bother you when I think something is worth bothering you about. Once again thanks for the wonderful job you do here, and there are, I'm sure, many Discus still swimming around that would have headed for that big tank in the sky if it were not for your help.
Regards Garry

[Ryan]

Garry,

Yes, the member titles here are based on the number of posts. There is no way to turn this system off and there is no way to change how it works. Every message board software has this in some form or another. You can customize the number of posts it takes to achieve each, and you can customize the titles themselves. I made the titles very general because I felt that things like, "Discus Newbie," "Discus Expert," etc. were not good choices in that it would be far from representative based on number of posts.

This issue has been discussed before, so you're not the first one to mention it :) Just be aware that this is a title system based on number of posts, and that just because a user has 4 stars doesn't mean he's an expert (and conversely, just because some people have 1 or 2 stars doesn't make them a new discus keeper).

Ryan

[garryg]

Thank you Ryan for your prompt reply. I apologise for the negativity shown in my first post. I understand now the limitations that the software puts on you,and I agree that the model that you have come up with is probably the best compromise.
Regards Garry

[April]

Welcome to Simply at any rate Garry. and the fact is...your negativity was done very politely .
:wave: hope you continue to post.

[MonkeeFish]

yeah that is also what i have noticed. This thread interests me very much also cuz i wanna see how many page i can get this thread to and the goal was 3 pages but hehe the more the better even thou we are off topic.
ish all gewd

johnny

[lesley]

Hello April,

is he allowed to register as another Aussie?? Will this mean that we Aussies are winning?

MonkeeFish, maybe this will make you 4!!!

Lesley

[Nightowl]

No fair!!!! 2 Aussies from one household!! I'm checking the rulebook.............
Hmmmmmmmmm....I have 3 cats, if I get them to each do 1 post per day under "Nightowl"........

Hi Lesley, hi Garry......

[Alan]

I believe it would be a great idea to contact your water source and ask them about the water, pH and all those stuff, because your water will most probably have the same "qualities" when you get it out of your faucet. You could also ask them how rainwater will affect the water that you get out of your faucet. I don't know if the people working in your water district would be willing to give you that information but you could try. Tell them you have prize-winning fish ;D

Anyway, as for the pH, I learned 4 things and these are from people who have been working with discus for a while.

First is that you should not be concerned with pH from your tap so much unless it's really low pH, and low pH "usually" comes from wells. That is why I wrote the paragraph above. At least you know where your water is coming from so you can minimize or be prepared for the surprises like one of the threads here about rainwater. Second is that pH change from low to high is better than high to low. Third is a regular water change regimen will help a lot with your fish's health. I believe this is part of what the saying "Take care of your water..." is about. ;D Fourth is that the importance of pH comes into play when you are trying to mate discus and have them spawn. Of course, this does not downplay the extremes of the pH where discus can survive.

So, don't be "too concerned too much" with pH unless you're at the stage of trying to breed them already. And if you don't want people talking/writing back at you, just talk to your discus ::) ;D

[Carol_Roberts]

two little corrections. . . . usually wells have higher pH because the water has percolated through mineral containing rocks. . . Hardness (mineral content) of the water is more important to breeding that pH.

[April]

Hi Lesley. sure sign that boy up. lol.
im sure we have gotten a few new canucks posting since then......their just shy..or stuck in a snowbank and havent gotten over there to click. lol.
Carol is right. wells are harder. most places who have extremely low ph is places like where i live where it rains and rains and rains and the water doesnt have time to contact with minerals. and our ph changes daily with however much rain we receive.

[MonkeeFish]

Hey everyone, thanks for contributing to this thread : )
Lesley thanks for posting to get my thread to 4 pages lolz.
Im going to go ask Jeff, he should know he lives in my area or close by.

Off top things i wanna say
Does anyone have any problems wit stretch marks? if so how long does it take to go away : )
"it's dumb but im concerned with it so please reply if you have any experience with it "

thanks you

Johnny

[Smokey]

I was refering to persons, who believe that it is not necessary to moniter their discus waters. And denounce others that take the time.

I am not referning to any other matter.

I had one client who could not understand why their fish never lasted very long. I tested the waters .. nh3, no2 regestered.

The person stated the tank was up and running for over a couple of years. Future questions reveiled the cleaning method ..:
"When the tank got too dirty, the person would empty the entire tanks contenst, clean with "Comet", wash everything in bleach, refill with new water, and through the fish in." This is not a isolated case ... of over cleaning ... I have come across. Trying to convince some hobbiest to do a 10 - 15% weekly w/c is sufficient [ average community tank] to maintane good water quality.

I aslo recomend the use of a NO3 test kit. .. to help understand when a w/c may be necessary.
I have a lot more happier customers, now! And a growing cliental of very satisfied hobbiests and fish.

Smokey

[Dave C]

fwiw I rarely test my water. I have a pH meter that sits idle in my holding tank. I also have a conductivity meter sitting in the same tank. I have test kits for amm/nit/nit. I use any/all of these kits/meters if I have water problems or there are conditions that lead me to suspect I have water problems. If the fish look odd I test the water, if there is an unexpected death I test, if the water coming into my holding tank looks cloudy or dirty I test but usually I just discard it and wait for it to clear. Otherwise I don't test.

Some people adjust their water, i.e. use peat, muriatic, pH Down, water hardener/softener. For those it makes a lot of sense to test their water daily before using it. But for me I just test when it seems necessary. I don't recommend that newcomers follow my example, get used to your fish and your water before dropping the tests.

[Smokey]

Very good advice Dave. :
Getting to know and understand ones own water is an important part of the hobby.

Watching and reading a fishs behaviour, lets one know if a problem is arising in the tank.

A routine of maintance, w/c's helps keep ever thing in balance.

As I condition my water with peat moss, before adding to the tanks; I like to be sure all the numbers are good and match the discus waters. Just in case something has changed. !! lol


Smokey