Add Water directly from the tap?

[gman]

Is it OK to add water directly from the tap by mixing the cold water (from a well with a 6.5 ph) and hot water (from the domestic tank) to the appropriate temp? I'd like to avoid storage tanks and set up the plumbing directly to the tank so I simply have to open a valve to change the water.

[Drummore]

Not Ok, i sugest a litle reading in the water posts for a percepcion on why to age water.

[ronrca]

A number of things you have to take into consideration.

First - chlorine or chloramines
Second - ph adjustment once C02 dissapates
Third - Temperature

You mentioned water from a well! The best thing to do is to get the well water tested to see whats all in it. My parents live on an acreage with a well but it is unsafe to drink because of the high sulfer content. Different wells have different water parameters. Be sure to get it tested.

When water is aerated over time, C02 will dissapate and usually the ph will go up. Here again, do a little test. Aerate a bucket of water for 24 hours and measure the ph.

When adding water directly into the tank and adjusting the temp as it enters, it may be difficult to get the exact temperature every time. It is best to heat and aerate (age) the water in a container for 12-24 hours before adding into the tank.

Just another food for thought! Discus require you to dish to a wad of cash. Your not really buying neons or guppies. The extra effort you do on your part to achieve stable water conditions before adding to the tank is nothing compared to sick/disease discus or worse. ;)

If you ask me this question a couple years ago. My answer would be "yes, go ahead. I had been doing it for over 20 years." Today, my answer is "absolutely not unless you add a filter in between". Water quality depending on your local treatment plan. we are on their mercy if we are not careful. Using filtered water directly from the tap can eliminate most of the problems with a minimal cost of changing filter once a month. That had saved me from the contaiminants leaked out by the power outage of the treatment plan during the black out. I found oil, rust and dirt which had clotted my filters completely within an hour of usage. Better safe than sorry. Depending on how much your need to change, temp. is an issue if the amount is large. You can get away without adjusting it with small changes or for the drip system.JMHO
Jimmy.

[Rick_May]

Several years ago if you ask someone how long they aged their water usually they would respond "25 feet". It worked then (usually) and it still works now (usually). I can’t say if it will work for you, I really recommend ageing your water 24 hours for the reasons already stated.

[RyanH]

Even if you are using a well and do not have to worry about chlorine or chloramines you should still age your water before it is added to the tank. pH can change dramatically once it is brought out of the ground. This change in pH can cause severe stress to your fish. That is primarily why it is important to allow your water to age for a day or so before it goes into your tank. It is also important to regulate the temperature to within a couple of degrees. drastic temperature changes can also cause stress and even lower resistence to disease.

-Ryan

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Well ;),
I guess Am just lucky! I grow all My baby discus to adults in pure Tap water And add No Chems to remove Chlorine or Chloramine.

Just turn on and fill 50% daily right out of a garden hose that many claim You should not use ;) And I been doing so for 16 years now! ;) Good old Detroit River water.

My Pameters have allways stayed Locked!
Ph 7.5
KH 6
GH 7
120ppm
230mS

They may change a bit depending on Rain fall. But for the most part not to a degree were it would harm the discus.


The best way to find out would be a tap water change daily on a few tetras pushing them to see how far they can go with the amount of water being changed Daily. Try it with the chems to remove Chlorine + chloramie and Try It without!
This will tell you if You can do it with Your Discus or not!


IMO There are alot of people out there that can go right from the tap. Now its true alot of Them will need to use a Chem during the water change And some will not! I think its best to get the best advice around about Your water parmeters.

Maybe You should list your parmeters here to see if it can even be done.There are many good Discus Keepers here that can help All You need to do is help Us Help You!

hth
Cary Gld
P.S Also there are many here that do the same lets see if they step up to help 8)

[RyanH]

What you can do is fill a container with some tap water and check its parameters immediately. Let it sit for 24 hours and check the parameters again. Do this periodically a few weeks to determine whether your pH fluctuates at all. Pay particular attention after it rains and water has had a chance to percolate down to your groundwater. While you are checking this, you will want to use aged water for your water changes to be safe.

Cary is right, in some places using straight tap water is fine. In some places it isn't. I am not as fortunate as Cary is. My tap water pH will actually shoot up quite a bit after I let it sit awhile.

[April]

i do use straight from the tap.but i need to check the ph as mine does fluctuate with rainfall..
but mine doesnt rise really overnight. as very soft .
i do store though for my fry when i have some.

[Nightowl]

Here on L.I. the water is very usable right from tap. For smaller tanks, I first fill a 30g tank on the floor and then pump it to the tanks after draining some water from them. I use a dechlorinator & I check temp. to be sure its close, but I don't worry about ph. The tap ph is 7.6; I can change 65% without harming fish because the water is fairly soft. My ph after water changes is anywhere from 6.3- 7.0 depending on the tank. Anyway, my fish are used to my routine.
For my 2 larger tanks I go directly from the sink to the tank...risky? I really don't know.....maybe. If I had well water I might want to get it tested first. Actually, all the water on L.I. comes from wells, with various pumping stations. The water parameters are available online. I do know discus keepers that prefilter their water, but one man that's been breeding fish for 47 years does not. He dechlorinates w/ sodium thiosulfate and drops the ph a bit when changing water on the adult fish w/ some sort of granular ph reducer.
It is probably safer to fill a reservoir tank, even if only to dechlorinate and check temp. IMO the quickest way to screw up ANY tropical fish is to temperature shock them. Water of a significantly different temp. can be very damaging to fish of any kind. later, J.T.

[lesley]

Hi JT,

are you saying that you use water directly from your hot water system?

The hot water system we have is 20 years old and I keep thinking of all the bacteria that are probably in it and heating the water by kettle and gas stove. It would be great to use straight from the tap. Do you think it would be ok?

Lesley

[jn4u]

Well depends. I have for a long time used t.p direct to tank. But I have 2 time
lose fish when my water supplier had a fault on the waterline. Ground water
in the system.

After this I use a active filter and water barrel to store the water even if there are
no real need, just in case.

As the other has told you need to make contact with your local water supplier
and ask them. About failure, chlorine or chloramines. Ask other breeders and
hobbiest that have the same water in same town

[tony1313]

Hey Cary,
One of the Detroit boys here and I have a couple of questions for ya. Am I wasting my time and energy by aging and heating my water? I have the same water source as you. It would be a whole lot easier for me to do 50%w/c's strait from the tap (no agitating, heating or treating). What about heavy metals? It sure would be nice to adjust the water temp at the tap and fill the tanks with a hose!
TIA,
Tony

[JeffreyRichard]

I echo Cary's sentiments ... I add right from the tap. I ignore pH and appoximate temperature. I really don't think it bothers the fish whether the temperature of the water you are additing is the same that of the tank. as long as it is not extreme.

Now, I'm luck because my water has no chlorine/chloramine and is very soft. The pH is WAY high out of the tap (9.5), but because the water is so lightly buffred, it drops to 7 once it hits & mixes with the existing tank water.

HOWEVER, everyones situation is different ... depends on the source water. It is SAFER to age water in a vat. It is SAFER to filter water first. It is SAFER to degasse water first. The question becomes is it worth the time/effort/$$$ to do this. As I used to have 4000 + gallons of water, it was totally infeasible for me to age and treat this water. I have resorted to whole house filters to filter out chemicals (Poly Filter cannister, Carbon filters) and mechanical filters to filter out sediment.

Bottom line ... do an analysis of your water to determine what is in it and what action you should take.

Be aware, too, that if you have municiple water, the additives change without notice. I have seen whole tanks of baby black angelfish go belly-up after a water change because something was added to the water by the utility.

[mutfish]

I often wonder how many more people would take up and enjoy this hobby if they knew they didn't have to age, heat, aerate, chemiclly alter, purify, mystify, and have their discus water blessed by a priest. A lot of folks that buy fish from me are astonished when I tell them my fish are swimming and thriving in water straight from the tap :o
As said before water in some areas is crap and needs a little help, but I'll bet most would be surprised just how happy our finned friends can be with the same water their owners drink ;)

MUT(age wine not water)FISH 8)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/p6dc7559e95f2ca2929979717a51e090e/fac1fd24.jpg

[Ryan]

I personally do not age my water. I put a 5 gallon bucket under the tap in my bath tub, adjust the tap until the temperature is close to the tank's, then I fill up the bucket, stick a pond pump in it, and pump straight from the tub to the tanks in my room.

I have well water, and I did check to make sure that my pH didn't bounce around like crazy before I started using this method. Before that, I aged my water every day and did the bucket brigade thing from the garage to my bedroom (50 gallons of water, everyday).

I think one of the main things to take into consideration is how much water you're changing. If your pH were shifting dramatically, 25% water changes as opposed to 75% water changes would be less likely to harm your fish because of the lower percentage of water changing. If you were changing 100% of your water a day and your fish were continually subjected to large, frequent, and major shifts, I could see where this would become a problem. As said in an earlier post, this goes for temperature as well. It's all relative to the amount of water you change, and how often you change it.

Take Note! I am one of the many people on this forum who suggest to newcomers in the discus world that they age their water before using it. Why? Because we all remember how stressful and frustrating things were when we started keeping discus. Why are they stressed? Why do they act funny? Why did my fish die? I think it's a safe way to start off in the hobby. Then your bases are covered (or at least one of them is). As you learn more about caring for and handling discus, and as you get more comfortable with them, you start to experiment and change things to better suit your liking, and that includes whether or not you really should age your water. But I do strongly recommend it for those who are new to discus or for those who are currently having some problems with your discus but can't pinpoint a source of the problem. Stress from shifting parameters will be one less factor in the whole discus equation and you won't have to worry about it.

I am soon moving to a new home and I will have city water for the first time there. I believe they add chlorine, but Town Hall would not print a water report for me (those A-holes). So let's hope that I (and my fish) make the transition smoothly and without any losses! :-\

Ryan

[ronrca]

I know what you mean mutfish! However, just a word of caution. Before telling anyone that they can use straight tap, it is paramount to find out what their tap water conditions are. Not everyone is as lucky as Cary and others. Certainly Im not. I have chloramines and C02 in my tap water therefore I have to aerate my water at least 4 hours to stablize the ph (tap 7.0, aged 7.8) and must treat for chloramines. Therefore, telling someone in my area to add straight tap would kill their fish! ;)

[Nightowl]

Hi Lesley, yes I use hot water as well, but the source water is a minicipal supply that is chlorinated.I'm not sure there would be more bacteria in a hot water system. If there is bacteria in your water, heating it to usable tank temp. would not deter it. There may be some particles in water relative to old hot water system, but I'm not sure about bacteria levels. If you consume the water w/ no ill effects chances are its ok for the fish. But I'm just speculating. J.T.

[Richman]

Ryan,

If Town Hall won't give you a water report, try calling the local water dept. directly. I get a lot of information from calling and talking to the engineers on site. They know more anyway.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hello,
I did not see a post telling anyone to use pure tap! we are just trying to help others that can and are not sure. I for one agree with ryan and his post first learn then make change's
and IMO thats what we are all doing here!

Tony,
Yep! your wasting time! :-*

[tony1313]

Cool, thank for the insite bro! Anything that makes the routine easier is a plus. BTW hows those future breeders of yours doin? Based on the pics in this thread I'd say their doin great!
:o
Tony

[Carol_Roberts]

My well water has no chlorine, but is full of CO2. It comes out of the tap between 6.6 - 6.8 and rises to 7.8+. I do daily 50% water changes.

A 50% WC with tap water drops my pH from 7.8 down to 7.3 in minutes. My discus used to turn dark and huddle in the corner until I learned to age (agitate) their change water. Now I can do 90% water changes with discus swimming happily in the middle of the tank the whole time.

Unless you are very confident of your water source I think it's always best to have stored water on hand.

[iceman_373]

I am fortunate I can add directly from my tap. Ph is 6.2 right out of the spigot. Chloramine is nonexistent and chlorine doesnt seem to phase my discus. Guess I'm lucky but as others suggested...testing is the most important aspect before directly adding to your aquarium. I also use the Morton salt pellets in the yellow bag(when needed) you can buy a 40 pound bag for 3.50 instead of a 16oz box for 3 bucks....just an fyi:)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Carol,
I see Your problem! Discus don't mind a PH increase But hate a drop Sorry NO TAP FOR YOU! ;D

[jn4u]

Active Charcoal System and I have a "hand-shower", rain the water in the tank. It's simpel
and cost me less then € 25. This removes then stuff out of the water.

http://ww2.hemsida.net/discus/images/charcoal1.jpg

[jun]

i'm with ryan. i also used to use a 5 gallon bucket and got my water from the tap of my bath tub and feel(eyeball) the temperature by hand. then i got lazy. since i had so many tanks, i made a pvc faucet attached it to a garden hose and ran it through my kitchen faucet. straight tap to all my tanks except for the breeders. i use r.o. water for my breeders only because i want a better hatching. however, once the fry's are eating off the slime. slow w/c is straight tap.

as cary said. it's depends on your area. check your municipal water parameters and where they are coming from. i just happen to be lucky and reside in san francisco. we get our water from the hetch hechy reservoir.

maybe we can start a topic in who, location and type of water use(tap or aged). this way we have some sort of database. could we make it a sticky also.

ex.
san francisco = straight tap

-----------------

a suggestion. for those currently aging their water. if you have a discus you can part with. you can put them in a separate tank and try using straight tap. just make sure the temperature are pretty close when you do w/c.

jun

[Harriett]

I took Cary's lead: I'm just north of Chicago with lake Michigan water. It comes out of the tap right to the tank (with temps adjusted) at 7.8 settling down to 7.4 when it off gases. I use straight tap from a garden hose/python and squirt in water conditioner (declorinator). I change 60-70% every week in my big planted show tank and my fish are all fine--they don't stress with the water changes at all. I was pretty worried at first but zero problems in the last 15 months with this approach. The tank is injected with CO2 and it all settles down to about 6.9 within a couple hours after water changes anyhow. I don't see stress when the pH goes up a bit, it's the sudden drops that cause distress for my guys. In fact, they usually start spawning a couple hours after water changes, when they are 'in the mood'.
In my smaller QT tank I change 40% daily from the tap with temp adjusted and addition of water conditioner and all is well in there too. My water parameters: KH is around 8 and GH around 11-12.
Best regards,
Harriett

[chirohorn]

I use tap water to do W/C also, but I do add chemicals to remove chlorine & choloramine.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

here is a good link,
for anyone wanting to know more about their local water. Just add in your area code in the little white box and Bam! alittle info on the water You use for Your discus!

http://www.scorecard.org/

hth
Cary gld! :-*

[O]

I run water from the tap through two 10" carbon blocks i got from Randal. My fish don't mind at all. I change 50% every day. My new wilds even play under the stream while i refill the tank.

Great link Cary! Thanks!

O.

[jun]

cary,

check out that site. after inputing about 5 zip codes from around the country. boy, are we in bad shape and not just the discus.

jun

after checking that link out with my zip........ I ain't even gunna drink that stuff :o

Thanks for the Link Cary :-*

[ronrca]

:( :( :(
Where's the canadian version!

[Rick_May]

I'm so far in the sticks, it didn't even know where I was!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Ronrca,

Don't You know? Us americans are buying Your garbage
by the truck loads hee.hee.hee ;D

[ronrca]

LOL! Cary! What can I say! If you guys are willing to buy it, is it our fault! LOL! We just keep the good water up here and sell the garbage! ;D ;)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

:-*

[henryD]

The way I see it Ronca the american still make out.

You pay us to take your garbage. In turn we burnt it and create smog and acid rain that gets blown up north.

;D

[Discus Don]

A word of caution on this topic....

I live west of Portland, OR, and even though I am supplied water by one water district, the water district gets it's water from two water sources. The two sources are mixed, and the percentage of water from each source depends on consumer usage levels, water pressure levels, rainfall, etc. One is at least partially subsurface water, the other is surface (reservoir) water. The two sources are treated differently (one gets only chlorine, the other gets chloramine). When mixed together, these release free ammonia into the water. Both use Sodium Hydroxide to raise pH levels to reduce corrosion in the delivery system. The pH tends to drop naturally after arrival as it is fairly soft water.

The point of all this blathering is that testing the water one day, and making a decision on direct-from-tap versus aged water may not be enough. Double check your readings several times to be confident in them.

I learned all this by talking with an engineer at the water district, so I urge you to do the same if you really want to know the inside scoop (unless, of course, you're on your own well).

Also, be aware that the parameters can change at any time without notice from the water district. They often don't know (or particularly care) of the affect on fish, as long as they think it won't harm people.

Finally, I will admit that I use tap water (changing ~100 gallons per day makes aging inconvenient, though not terribly difficult), and have not seen any negative consequences. I add Amquel during water changes to neutralize the chlorine, chloramine, and free ammonia.

-Don

[bikhu]

You've all inspired me to experiment..... I have extremely soft water from a municipal supply. When I age it it goes from 7.5 to 6.8 overnight....
Infact it will continue to plummet from there. What I usially do is buffer it with RO RIght and pH Stable and then age it 24 hrs . At that point it is at 7.5 consistently.
Well I took a few little guys who I prefer to call testers (they hate it when I call them culls!) and in a 20 gal long I relpaced half the water with buffered fresh tap (added Prime for the chlorine). THe H2O is at 7.5 after 4 hours. The fish are not showing any signs of stress or shock. In fact they look pretty good. Fins nice and high... Alert.. no hiding... Lets see where it goes from here. How long a period do you think is a reasonable test period? It sure would beat the water storage and bucket brigade! Thanks- peace
peter

[RAWesolowski]

Cary spoke to our fish group in Kalamazoo last November or December. During his talk, question and answer period, he described his method for water changes. The senior breeders in the club were dubious because the tap water de-gasses when you do a straight tap change. Cary agreed that tap de-gasses but he said his fish showed no ill effects although they will occasionally lose their slime coats.

Up to that time, I was hauling and mixing water. Since then I shifted to Cary's plan with a Python. Works wqell and I became even more religious with water changes. Kalamazoo is city well that feeds through a 5 micron water filter before going to my softener for the house. Tanks have digital temp readouts I I can keep the temp fluctuation to 0.2C.

Cary also mentioned that he will give his fish a "cold" water change if they are not breeding. I don't remember the temp drop that he allows but I would like to know what others have done.

[Willie]

I live within Minneapolis city limits and make changes straight from the tap. Sodium thiosulfate and AmQuel are squirted in as the tank fills. I make 100% water changes (whenever I get around to it). I started doing this before knowing about how to age or filter water and its always worked for me. The only time I had trouble happened 5 years ago. In the Fall, the city sometimes dumps in huge amount of chloramine to control algal bloom in the storm drains. If it happened again, I'd just follow up with extra AmQuel.

I have to agree it would be a lot safer to pretreat my water. But since a single water change is 800 gallons, I can't see how to set up enough reservoir to treat my water?

Willie ??? ??? ???

[gillyweed]

Willie, LOL!!!

Looks like aging water is more feasible with small volumm of water, but not for the 800G!!! :o

I only have 4 tanks (less than 150G) but I find it's easier to change water directly from the tap. I do about 50% change twice a week, directly from the tap & with water temperature adjusted. I always added ULTIMATE water conditioner into the tank. No fish loss just "yet"!

I have discus for less than a year, so my personal experiences should not speak for anyone on this board! Try at your fish's risk! ;D ;D ;D

I'm just lucky, I guess!

gw

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Great Topic Everyone! ;)

Anyway's I thought I would post a few of the fish I have Raised + breed in pure tap!

Discus
angels
Rams
piranha
cory's
pleco's
guppies
mollies
white clouds
betta's
gourami's
barbs

hth You take the time to try and see!
Takecare,
Cary GLD

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: This is an excellent thread!! Cary, you are so lucky to have good water!!
Hey Bob W. do you use the water before or after the water softener??? When I used my well water after the softener, (lotsa Na ions, no Mg or Ca ions) my fish did very poorly, got sick, lost some. My well water has lotsa iron, alledged to be nasty chemicals, prob heavy metals, therefore need a softener. So I've been using 100% R/O reconstituted so I know it contains the right minerals for growth.
I'm going to retest the water directly from the well before the softener, now that I've had a faucet placed inline. I would love to be able to use a percentage with the R/O, since it's difficult to make enough water to keep up. Maybe some of you can help with that decision when I find a reliable testing source. lol, Dottie ;D ;D

[Tkuemmet]

Cary, you sure treat these guys like the good ole cichlids they are!


Travis

[DavidH]

I was doing fine with tap until....CHLORAMINES!!!

[RAWesolowski]

Dottie,

I use the water after the water softener. However, I have a house house filter before the water softener. It is an inexpensive item that takes standard filters from 5 to 20 micron that are also inexpensive. You can pick it up at Lowe's, Home Depot or other big box stores. The filter has really helped in terms of extending RO membrane life and appears to knock out quite a few of the impurities.

I've had no problem with straight tap after the water softener and I use DuraCube Compacted Water Softener salt from Cargill. I do treat the water with prime as I add it to the tank.

Note that the water will de-gas and your fish will lose their slime coat! Not a big deal per Cary and my fish agree.

[korbi_doc]

:o :o Bob, just a curiosity ?. My water after the softener has a ppm of >900!! That's gotta be salt ions I think. Yes the softener extends filter life, easier on it, so that's why my R/O is placed after the softener & my ppms drop to around 50. Do you know what the ppms are of your tap water after the softener?? Now maybe the water before the softener directly from the well could be run thru a carbon & sediment filter without the membrane to be safer then mixed with the R/O. Just thinking this thru, & I do have an old r/o setup I could use without the membrane. Just not sure where I'm going, (comes from being old, hahahahahaha) lol, Dottie

[CARY_GLdiscus]

LOL Dottie :-*

[ChloroPhil]

Straight tap's the only way to go with freshwater IMO. It saves a heck of a lot of money on reconsituting RO/DI.

[RAWesolowski]

Dottie,

Municipal water tests at 460ms or about 920 ppm for me. The tanks and the soft water test at 270 ms. Yes, I know that it is above the hardness levels that many say are ideal but discus are cichlids as Travis stated in his earlier post and are pretty darn adaptable. I was just at MVPets, a store owned by a hobbyist and discus breeder here in Kazoo. He has discus in water that I tested at 420 ms and they are laying eggs!

The drop in hardness may be a result of the whole house filter. Read as "house house" filter in my previous post. Standard cartridege for the unit is a 20 micron reduction filter, I use a 5 micron filter. I have to change more frequently but I like the idea that the stuff isn't passing into my system!

Did you test your water at the tap or an outside spigot? One of the fish magazines just had an article by a gent who had zinc problems with his water that was coming from his well! Some hardness may be rising from pipes, lack of whole house filter, water heater, or water source. My water is substantially different from water just 40 miles from my house. My water is from limestone aquifer wells, the better water is great lakes water whether H O M E or S.