Feeding vs Water changes

[ronrca]

Just wanting to see what the general consensus of the two factors in growing out fry! I know that both are vital but which is more important, feeding a lot of food or large water changes.

Perhaps what Im getting at is should the concentration be on making sure that the fry get a lot of food or large water changes. I know that a lot of people will say both but choose between the 2! ;)

Edit
LOL! I like what Im reading so far! Lets narrow it down a little perhaps then!

Which of the two is better:
#1 - feeding 6x day, 50% wc daily
#2 - feeding 3x day, 90% wc daily

same amounts of food at each feeding, same food!

Btw, I reset the poll!

[lkleung007]

Hi,

I tend to think that the Water Changes may be a bit more important. I don't have solid scientific proof of this but I have had good success with daily large volume water changes. With my busy schedule, some days I can only feed 3 times rather than 5-6 times.

HTH, Lester

[EIHAB83]

to be honest both of the options are a must, in order to get good quality healthy discus
EIHAB

[henryD]

Good question. I was just rethinking my methods also. Not to steal your post but I would like to find out people thought on

Changing 1 large volume of water every other day ie 90%.

Or change everyday but smaller volume. 45% daily.

[DarkDiscus]

Interesting poll. I have to say... both.

Henry,

I'd have to think that consistent w/c is always better that one massive w/c and a day off... It's easier to maintain static water parameters which is better for the fish.

John

[O]

i'm curious about that as well. My feeling is water changes. there've been numerous aquiculture studies showing clean - ammonia & nitrate free water being a major growth contributing factor. Nutritional needs(mainly protein and amino acid intake) being a second factor.

[Tonyintx]

I wonder what the real correct answer is, since I've started changing 75% of the water in my 2 Discus tanks I have seen less growth and more torn fins, Why is that?

[Mr. Limpet]

That is a trick question. Take it to the extreme either way and it doesn't work. I chose food, only because they can't grow at all if they are not fed. But, if you feed them a ton and they don't get water changes they die from bad water conditions. So, you nust be looking at which side to tip the balance towards. So, I still choose food provided there is a minimum standard for water quality. Paul.

[Rick_May]

ya know this is like asking which is more important for us to live, food or water? we can do without either for a short time but both are needed for longterm growth. so lets say you feel water is more important, so you change water every day alwalys check the prams and keep it clean enough to drink form but all you offer your fish is gold fish flakes. That dog don't hunt. lets say you think food is more important. You feed your fish 5 times a day the finest foods money can buy but you only change water once a week, guess what? that dog don't hunt either. neither food nor water changes alone will result in the results we all are looking for, combine the two and now your talking.

[ronrca]

LOL! I like what Im reading so far! Lets narrow it down a little perhaps then!

Which of the two is better:
#1 - feeding 6x day, 50% wc daily
#2 - feeding 3x day, 90% wc daily

same amounts of food at each feeding, same food!

[RichieE]

I picked feeding 3x a day with a 90% water change. If you feed 6x a day with only a 50% water change the water may be to polluted for them to even survive depending on how heavy and what your feeding. My guestemate would be bad water by the 2nd-3rd week.
6x a day with 2 50% changes and your cookin 8). Rich

[EthanCote.com]

The concensus here is both. But to amuse you Ron, I think it would be food. I recall reading a post by Dave C where he did an experiment of the effect of daily WC vs weekly WC.

And it appears there isn't much of a growth difference on the discus between the two methods (NOTE: good filtration is an important factor on the weekly WC).

You can read about his experiment here:
http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/master.htm (click on the Experiment link).


Cheerio,

Chi.

[ronrca]

Awwww! Chi! You were not suppose to mention Dave experiment! LOL!

Dave's experiment is actually what got me thinking! Since the water changes did not make much of a difference, what about how much food is fed instead? ???

Just a thought! ;)

[EthanCote.com]

errr "Ops I did it again" ?? ;)


Not to disregard Dave's experient but that is but one experiment so results may vary. One normally need to run several similar experiments to be more conclusive.

So there you have it Ron, your poll is still valid ;D

So feel better? ;D


Cheerio,

Chi.

I think the point of dave's experiment was that growth was similar as long as the water quality didn't suffer...he cut down his water changes, but had heavy filtration(ie* a hot magnum filter)
I think what you feed makes the larger water changes necessary...I've noticed that beefheart and hikari red pellets make my water much dirtier than feeding bloodworms....
david

[Carol_Roberts]

I feed 6 times per day and 50% water change - unless I'm crowding the tank then I still feed 6 times per day, but either do 80% water change or two 50% water changes . . .

[ronrca]

as long as the water quality didn't suffer In the daily tank, nitrates were 0. In the weekly tank, nitrates 10ppm (May 27/03)!

The reason we are suppose to do water changes is primarily to keep the nitrates as low as possible however, in Dave's case reading his conclusion, perhaps water changes of 50%+ is over kill! This is why I did the poll! Is it the water changes that are important for growth or is it the food quantity? Some feed 3x a day, others 6x! If I had the tanks and fry, I would love to setup up a experiment similar to Dave's but the varible being number of feedings a day! Any offers to send me any of both! ;D LOL!

hey Ron, that date IS the only date where he mentions the nitrates level in the tanks...later on in the experiment his conclusion is:(and i'm too lazy to make a direct quote) he doesn't feel that daily changes are necessary as long as you have adequate filtration, and you deal with 'issues' as they come up...but he did feel that once weekly wasn't enough-i guess because of the nitrate buildup...you'd have to ask dave how long he goes btwn water changes on his grow-out tanks, but i don't think it's a whole week anymore...
All I can say is I haven't personally seen too many people that can grow fry like Dave does(especially including myself :-[ ) so he must be on the right track...i think the "experiment" was just to get an idea of a happy medium btwn weekly and daily water changes...I believe he has also all but discontinued feeding ANY beefheart, which was what he was feeding during the experiment:for reasons of cleanliness, and also because of a slowdown in growth at around three inches...

p.s. i think as far as food QUANTITY at some point it get's to be overkill...the food rather than being used is going through the fry half digested...
david

[ronrca]

Well, so far is 60% for 50% wc against 40% for 90%!

More votes needed! Only 20 ppl voted so far!

David, I understand what you are saying and agree with you! The poll is still using daily water changes instead of daily vs. weekly! ;) Just wanted to get a feel for how ppl think about volume of daily wc's. There maybe some ppl that are doing 90% daily waters which may be able to do 50% therefore saving on water! ;) (Kind of what Dave found out with his experiment)

[Pat_in_NC]

I agree with Carol--amount and number of waterchanges depends on stocking density. I have been crowding my growout tanks a bit (20-25 2" fish per 30 gal) and do 2x90% wc per day. That way I can feed then 6x a day. If I had half the stocking density I am sure I could get away with half the wc.

Young fry less than 2 months old really need to eat more than 3 times/day.


HTH,

Pat

[Smokey]

Ron, sorry I can vote for either of your choices.

Feeding is extremely important. As is the high quailty of the food.
When the discus are very young fry - a different food is necessary, as opposed to when they are, lets say - 1 year old. And as they grow and mature , I find that the discus like a different food, again. Their digestive system is larger and perhaps they can handle their foods more efficiently [??].

Water quality - my choice is to keep the NO3's below 5 ppm. Sometimes a daungting task.
Sometimes, I change the w 2x per day. [ as opposed to 1 larger w/c. ]

Presently I have 24 discus in a single stand-alone 100 gallon tank. [ the fish room - is under construction.. lol.].

W/c's are done 2 -3 times daily. Small 25% amounts. The NO3's fall to 0 - 1ppm.

If I do not change the water for 12 hours - the No3's climb to 5 ppm. Especially after a heavy feeding of heart and bloodworms.

I cann't wait to get the systems up and running.
And the new tanks.

Smokey

[Elendil]

Hi guys..

My method of feeding would be pumping them with a mixture of beef and frozen bloodworms/brineshrimp throughout the day... followed by a 90% water change at the end. The important balance, i feel, is for the tank to be well cleaned out.... even after heavy feedings making a BIG mess..

In the past, without sufficient water change and same feeding routine, my tank had repeated bacterial blooms.... with almost unremovable plenaria.

My tank size: 36'' X 18'' X 14''.... currently housing 7 [3 - 4 ''] discus. All run on 1 airstone + 1 sponge filter.... sponge is 'beaten' daily to remove all dirt particles.. and washed once weekly.

With sufficient nutrition.... proteins...vitamins.. minerals + good clean water there is no reason why they should not grow well.

Just my opinion

[Smokey]

Howdy; Everone uses the phrase " GOOD - CLEAN - WATER".

What is "GOOD - CLEAN - WATER" ??

Water that appears clean, to the visiable eye?
Water that smells clean ?
Water that does not make the discus float ? [ LOL. ]

OR - Is it water that has 0 - NH3'S, 0 - NO2'S, AND - MPO - NO3's less than the critical 10ppm ??

MPO - GOOD - CLEAN - WATER, FOR DISCUS - has to have a Nitrate reading [ use a test kit, they are inexpensice] under 5 ppm.

There are other important test kit readings, which help to maintian "GOOD - CLEAN - WATER".
pH, KH, NO3, and a digital temperature thermoniter; are my personal choices.

Yes, I can pour the food, for the discus. 2x,3x,4x,5x,6x,7x daily. However- I realize, I must also "REMOVE" the waste contaminates, the discus produce. In order to maintain "GOOD - CLEAN - WATER".

Conclusion - I rely on the numbers, of a test kit - to help me maintain "GOOD - CLEAN - WATER".

I hope this helps, and offers an answer to your guestion, Ron.

[ronrca]

LOL! Smokey! Sorry, it does not answer my question! Why? Well, the poll is not asking whether or not water changes are a good idea! Its not saying wait until your nitrates rise to 5ppm, then change! The poll indicates whether a huge daily wc is necessary or one around half! Im still talking 'good, clean, water'! The poll is also asking which is better, lots of food or around half that! Wc's are still being preformed on a daily bases regardless! Its the amount of food and wc that will optimize growth Im looking for! Im also wondering if 90% wc is overkill and if 50% is still optimized! ;)

[Smokey]

OK. Ron;
MPO/E - lots and lots of "safe" water. AND for the young fry - as much food as they like.

The magic amounts - for food - plenty.
The optium setup - fresh food entering with a fresh flow of water. With a tank turnover rate of 2 - 3x per hour. [?]. variations may need to be tuned for the size of fry.

However, in a box, of stationary water [ enclosed eco-system].,
as much as the fish can survive in.

Ron, I believe there is a direct correlation between food in and waste [NH3] output.

If a person can do 50% water changes 3x daily, great!
If a person can only do 50% w/c - 1x daily, the water may become "thick" with "waste".

Ron's qoute; - "Its the amount of food and wc that will optimize growth Im looking for! Im also wondering if 90% wc is overkill and if 50% is still optimized!"

To me, these are two different questiions.
90% may be over kill [ especially if the new water is harmful].
50% may not be enough - for the NH3, NO2's being produce.

So, the question may be - how much food, to keep the water volume "safe" , for the discus??

Smokey

[ronrca]

90% may be over kill [ especially if the new water is harmful]. Thats irrelavent at the moment since the new water can not be harmful. If that would be the case, you wouldnt do 50% either!

DaveC's experiment did determine that wc's (be 90%, 100%, etc) are perhaps.................... 'overrated'..... for a lack of a better word (he did not recommend weekly wc's btw). From my own experience, the amount of food did seem to make a difference. This is why I posted the poll to see what the general consensus is! So far, 50% daily wc's are the norm! ;) Basicly, what Im trying to determine if Im wasting my water (and money) by doing 80%+ daily wc's and should concentrate more on the 'food' part!

[Smokey]

Howdy Ron;
Let me answer, Yes, I do agree.

1- Yes, a person may be wasting $.$$, water, and time; by doing unnecessary water change amounts. Rather than a 50% w/c daily; a 30% may all that is needed, etc..

2- Yes, food is extremely important, for the growth and development of the discus. Deffinetly concentrate on providing food.

3- Yes, Food will determine the overall development of the discus,[especially as a fry].

4- Yes, water quality can also determine the overall development of the discus, [especially as a fry].

Smokey

[Dave C]

ron, here's what I have determined for my tanks... I feed about 4x a day. I don't see how anyone could feed more often then that. After my fish feed their bellies are full. I check on them about 3 hours later and they're ready for more food. I have checked in 1 & 2 hours but while they'll eat then the amount that they'll consume is less then what I deem a normal meal portion is and much goes to waste. So I've found that 3 hours is about the best amount of time to allow for consumption & digestion of food. So by all means I could feed more often but they'd get less food each time and I'd be tied to the tanks even more. I guess what I'm saying is the # of feedings is really irrelevant, it's the amount of food that matters. I feed as much as they'll eat. If a tank of fish leaves food behind I skip a feeding on that tank.

As for water changes, I don't know how you guys/gals can keep your tanks clean with just sponge filters & water changes. I heavily stock my tanks, at least I think I do. For instance I have 40 3.5" fish in a 65g tank, 100+ 1" fry in a 50g tank, 50 2.5-3" fish in a 65g tank etc. And that's typical stocking density. I find that with that much fish per gallon the water would look like soup without any mechanical filtration. There's not enough water change time in the day to keep up with that, especially given the amount of food I put in. So I run the Magnums to keep the water crystal clear. I turn them off while I feed and turn them back on when the food is gone, anywhere from 5-30 minutes later. Much of the crap is removed by these filters but all of the floating stuff is removed. When I do a water change there is little to remove with the siphon, I just hook up a J tube with a hose and remove 1/2 of the water, siphoning whatever crap there is. I do that on Mon/Wed/Fri. The water I remove is clean. My nitrates never exceed 5ppm on any day of the week. I could remove more clean water and replace it with clean water from my holding tank but it makes no sense.

My fish grow fast, as fast as I have heard from others, especially when you consider that I don't feed live food. So this works well for me, both from a disease/growth pov and from a labor pov. My tanks are clean throughout the day.

[ronrca]

Ok! I found what Im looking for! Thanks for the responses!

Good - Clean - Water! LOL!

Basicly it comes to the nitrates! Surprised? LOL! No! We all know that! However, lets dig a little deeper perhaps! Many of us have always been saying x amount of water change volume! This x number is what I was more or less trying to determine along with food frequency/amount!

My conclusions then are:
- feeding around 4x+ is a must for growth
- the volume of wc should be determine by your nitrate test kit rather than depending on an arbitary number (90% daily for example may be overkill). Testing before a wc, after, 6 hours, 12 hours and 18 hours. This will indicate if you need to change more volume or less. This needs to be done on an individual bases rather than in general as every tank is unquie (size, stocking density, feeding frequency and amount, filration, new water, etc, etc, etc).

However, how do you accuratly determine your nitrate level if your test kit only starts at 5ppm. Do you have 3ppm or 4ppm or perhaps 5ppm? Are there any test kits for discus? LOL!

[Debo]

The amount of water changed varies. It is always 50%. But sometimes if I feel water is not looking as clean as I like it I do larger change.
DebO

[Willie]

So what's wrong with overkill on the % water change? Remember, a zero reading on your nitrate kit does not mean that there's no nitrate in the water. Its just below the level of detection of the kit. There's no particular reason to assume that these kits are particularly sensitive.

Willie

[Not2Day]

As I follow this thred; am I correct in assuming that your Nitrite levels are Zero and therefore you are measuring Nitrate levels?

[ronrca]

I have 2 nitrate test kits, Hagen and Aquarium Pharm.! The lowest reading on the hagen kit starts at 5ppm however the lowest reading on the Aquarium Pharm. is 0ppm, then 5ppm! I find this interesting because if my nitrate level is greater than 0 but less than 5, Hagen should read 5ppm however the Aquarium Pharm will indicate that it is lower than 5 but higher than 0 by comparing the difference in colors.

I measured my nitrate level right before the water change and the hagen kit=5ppm, the Aquarium Pharm=0! Both the lowest levels. I would consider the Aquarium Pharm kit a little more accurate than the Hagen. Any comments/experiences?

Not2Day,
Yes, we are testing the nitrAte levels and that the tanks are fully cycled (0 ammonia/nitrite)!