Is this hobby helping or hurting wild Discus?

[RyanH]

I was sitting in front of the boob tube the other day flipping through the channels and I stopped on the E! channel. There was an episode of "True Hollywood Story" that was talking about the life of Mike Tyson. I started watching right as they were talking about how in he used to own rare white tigers and kept them as pets in his back yard. This just absolutely enfuriated me. How could a scumbag like Mike Tyson could get ahold of such a rare and beautiful endangered species? Shouldn't they be hunting prey on a savannah somewhere? Who the hell is Mike Tyson to have exotic pets in his back yard purely for his own enjoyment? I naturally began to think about keeping Discus and if the animals I have in my fishroom were any different. How could a nobody like me get ahold of such an exotic and beautiful species? Am I really any different when I go out and buy a new fish? Am I contributing to the demise of this species? Even if I am buying domestic strains that have spent their entire lives in a barebottom tank and have never seen a rainforest, I am still contributing to demand for them.

As a graduate student of biology, I often am at odds with my professors in terms of my enjoyment of keeping Discus. Many in the academic and scientific communities find it unethical to take animals from the wild for personal enjoyment. Particularly if they are threatened or endangered. I can certainly see their point of view. This is probably the primary source of my reluctance to buy or keep wild Discus up to this point.

On the other hand, if the habitat of wild Discus is being destroyed (as the habitat of most of the african rift lake species of cichlids are) then this hobby would, in effect, be ensuring their survival despite contributing to the dwindling numbers of wild Discus in the Amazon. Many species of African Cichlids will be extinct within 10-20 years. Discus may not be far behind. Particularly if we consider their sensitivity to water quality. Are we helping or hurting their chances for survival by taking specimens from the wild for domestication?

Should we allow them to potentially succumb to extinction from pollution and destruction of habitat or do we have a responsibility to take them out of harms way and domesticate them to ensure the survival of their species? And does taking them perpetuate the problem of a dwindling wild population?

I realize that these are questions that people in this hobby do not want to think about. It is too easy to justify actions and move on without giving things much thought. I do not believe in moral relativity and I think that a definitive answer to this problem exists. While it will always remain a sensitive subject, I think it needs to be discussed.

I am not trying to judge anyone who keeps wilds, I just want to know, for myself, if this is a wise course of action These are questions that I have been struggling with for awhile and I would like to start a dialog here and get some perspectives from others that are wiser than I.

-Ryan

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ryan,

Being a biologist myself I can understand much of what you are saying and wondering about. I keep both wilds and domestics but instead of adding to your post as a hobbyist... I'll try from the scientists point of view..

First question you need to ask is if the collection of wild discus is really impacting the populations in the wild? The amazon is an immense area, with many inaccessible places still. Without this info, its hard to continue . On the surface it may seem that collecting animals from the wild would always affect populations negatively... but studies have shown that that is not always the case..

second question is whether the current practices in collection affect the economy of the region. I was recently told that wild discus equal less than 2 % of the exported wilds. Thats a pretty small number....which might indicate that although we in the hobby think there are lots of wild discus exported.. proportionally..discus play a minor role in the scheme of things. That % would of course need to be varified.

Three.. a detailed review of the impact of environmental degradation on discus populations needs to be done.

I'll add some more points as I think of them...

..but as a biologist to be Ryan...I see a ton of potential for you for thesis and projects. :)

-al

[jim_shedden]

I change my mind every other day. One thing for sure is this : If you have wilds don't go see "FINDING NEMO". You will want to let everything go... ;D

[Paulio]

You can look into "Project Piaba" for *some* answers. We really just dont have enough facts and #'s to say for sure what the actual impact is. That tied with the fact that Discus in the wild have established new territories due to introduction by man makes the whole thing even tougher to reslolve.

http://www.finarama.com/tba/projectpiaba/

[MonkeeFish]

quote "I am not trying to judge anyone who keeps wilds" unquote then why are you judging Mike Tyson??? Rich people do alot of things for their own enjoyment. i bet if u had half of whatever he makes you would spend on it a pair of fabolous wild discus. Then i bet when someone talks about these oh soo rare discus of yours on tv. someone watching it would react the same way you did with mike tyson.

If it was me that was watching it my reaction would be "rich ******* and nice tigers" but i wouldnt call him a scumbag. We do not know if he's trying to preserve the rare animals at the same time using it for his own enjoyment. I don't know the guy so why judge him and disrespect him.

That is like me saying something about you when i do not know you weather your a nice guy or not. Get what i am trying to say.
"Don't judge a book by it's covers"

I IN NO WAY INTENT TO OFFEND ANYONE
SORRY IF I DID

[RyanH]

This is waayy off subject but I'll bite.

Your absolutely right Monkeefish. I had no right judging Mike Tyson. I'm sure he's a helluva nice guy. He's just misunderstood. He goes through life trying to make a difference in the world, always seeking out love and beauty and nobody appreciates him for it. He is a decent guy who would never hurt anybody. And he has the utmost respect for members of the opposite sex. I was way out of line. In all fairness, I guess I do have a limited frame of reference. That being SportCenter highlights and Courtv. After all I have never met him so who the hell am I to judge? People like me should really stop picking on poor old, perpetually victimized Mike Tyson.

If you had a comment on the ethics of wild Discus keeping I would love to here it.

[brewmaster15]

Ryan, Just be glad that discus don't have external ears otherwise Mike Tyson might keep those to practice on. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D..curious.. in that TV show did those cats have their ears intact? :)

monkeefish.. do you know who Mike Tyson is?
"Don't judge a book by it's covers"


-al

[RyanH]

:)

[RyanH]

Hey Paulio,

thanks for posting the link to that article. Good stuff.

[Paulio]

Ryan,

No problemo :) I think it important to see that the people recognize the situation (export of wild fish) and would like to make it as good for all as possible. This isnt just good for the Sout American river folk. Its good for the planet! Heck, maybe some day buying wild S/A fish will mean preserving what is left of our great rain forsest.


Al,

Hey Mike Tyson in a heck of a guy. He even invited me for dinner once. Strange thing was that instead of Paul and guest the invite said Paul and ears. :P And here I thought it was a typo.

Ok, its late, lame joke.
Paul

I think in the next 20 years or so WE (human beings) may become EXTINCT! Let alone the wild kingdoms found on this planet, they'll survive one way or another. It's us we should be concerned about. With new technologies added to strengthen what we have thus far, all the old tech supplies are being trashed into rivers and oceans (cramming reefs and overtoxicating them with the many chemicals of silicon and other metal/irons).

Enjoy today because the days are short and so are those nights. We're about to kick off 2004 already.

Peace, Love, Flowers & Discus to Ya...

[brewmaster15]

Angie... Angie...Angie... Is the glass half full or half empty? sounds like yours half empty... .. extinct .? who knows... ,maybe.. Some thought we'd never survive the cold war.

Whether we as a race survive or not.. that could be debated and speculated on for years to come :) Look on the bright side... no more water changes or taxes! ;D LOL just kidding..

Seriously , I try to keep my glass half full, and work hard to keep filling it...

see my signature...
The Future is Not Written in Stone. It is Written Day by Day. ..... What are you Writing today? It fits here nicely.

[Anonapersona]

People in the amazon region can make a living by farming crops that require cutting down the rainforests, using ferilizers and pesticides, or they can make a living by hunting fish for live capture which requires that they protect their secret fishing holes and guiding eco-tourists to see the wild regions.

There was great discussion of this on Aquatic Plant Digest a while back. It sure changed my mind to understand the reality of the fish export business.

Angie... Angie...Angie... Is the glass half full or half empty? sounds like yours half empty... .. extinct .? who knows... ,maybe.. Some thought we'd never survive the cold war.

Whether we as a race survive or not.. that could be debated and speculated on for years to come :) Look on the bright side... no more water changes or taxes! ;D LOL just kidding..

Seriously , I try to keep my glass half full, and work hard to keep filling it...

see my signature...
The Future is Not Written in Stone. It is Written Day by Day. ..... What are you Writing today? It fits here nicely.


;D ;D ;D Hi Al:

Didn't mean to sound like I needed a psychologist, or had a degree in political science studies, or needed an exorcist priest! ;D I was just touching some baselines on the destruction caused by high (and continuous) demands for technology (computers, cars, cell phones, etc.).

Oh, by the way, how do you know stone is composed of the regular elements to make it stone? Nowadays we have pioneering doctors that are able to "clone" (copy) the likings of such! Beware of those so-called stones, they may just melt at the site of overly contaminated H2O. ;D

Being silly, just call me (if you like)... ;D ;D ;D

[MonkeeFish]

sorry to bring this back u after so long but hasnt being paying attention to this thread "BUT"

Brew-

Yes i do know who mike tyson is!!!
actually no i don't know who Mike Tyson is
I know his name like many of us here
I know his face but i do not know Mike Tyson
Cuz bearly anyone know Mike Tyson.
Only you know you
and only Mike Tyson know Mike Tyson

Honestly when we watch the News
they show us the bad things people done
but have they really shown us what the great things those peepo have done???

just something to consider............................

[brewmaster15]

Honestly when we watch the News
they show us the bad things people done
but have they really shown us what the great things those peepo have done??? generally I agree with you on this but generalities DON'T APPLY TO EVERYONE and REALITY SHOULD NOT BE IGNORED. :)

-al

[jeep]

As long as it's done properly I don't think is all that harmful...

Here's some interesting links. Notice the change in Lauro's feelings in the first one...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6488

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=7239;sta rt=0

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=7835;st art=0

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=10987;s tart=0

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=10525

[Miles]

AL,
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

8)

[Rick_May]

I feel that as long as the environment that discus needs isn’t destroyed then their isn't a problem harvesting some fish. The absence of fish competing for the same area increases the survival rate of new fish and the harvested fish is soon replaced, without the fish being harvested the fish that would have replaced it, may not find an area suitable to survive and becomes lunch for a predator. From whet I've seen discus are taken with a net and a light at night, I really doubt that the percentage on fish that find themselves in the right conditions (or wrong) where they are even visible to a collector using this method is large enough to make any impact. Now, if collecting discus becomes destructive then their will be a problem. What I fear is the use of chemicals like those used to collect marine life, or large netting operations that remove every fish from large areas in the river.

[wildthing]

altho the rain forest is threatened there is still about 60 million square miles that is virtually unexplored.
Discus are only threatened by loss of habitat and/or polution, same as every other living thing in Amazonia, so encouraging their controlled exploitation is probably a good way to encourage habitat preservation and to provide environmentally safe ways for the 'locals' to make a living, far better that gold mining or slash & burn farming.
the problem, as always, is political. No-one wants to be the one to do the long term 'right thing' and so the forest , the river, and all its inhabitants are sacrificed for short term gains. many scientists are speaking about the " Amazon Desert" within 50 years , the soil under the trees they are cutting down is very poor & sandy and not much grows back after it has been de-forested. It is not hard to find stats on how much is being cut down on a daily basis

Also many times Brazil ( and many other poor countries with rich bio-diversity) complain about bio-piracy. Discus are a very good example of this. Asia took bio-samples ( wild discus) from the Amazon & breeds them & makes tens of millions of $$$s each year from them, while the original source gets screwed . Unscrupulous collectors pay 'ignorant' locals pennies for a fish that they then turn around & sell for hundreds if not thousands of $$$s. This is the most evil sort of exploitation ( IMO) as it basicly seems to me like stealing resources from the locals....but I guess this is a habit that 'westerners' have had for centuries.
Other kinds of 'piracy' are being vigorously chased down by governments ( such as software piracy, music & video piracy etc) but there seems to be a huge double standard when it comes to protecting the property rights of poor countries. I think they got it all bass ackwards!

[RyanH]

You make some valid points Wildthing. The locals need to make a living somehow. It is a shame that they are taken advantage of the way that they are. It does seem that poor or desparate people in these countries too often will get the short end of the stick. They are being exploited and that should absolutely be considered when looking at the ethics of wild Discus keeping. What can we do as hobbyists to curve this problem? Can we do anything? Could we be a bit more choosy about the importers we do business with?

I agree with you that the business of collecting is certainly better from a conservation standpoint than clearcut farming. People do not realize just how poor the soil quality is in a tropical rainforest. Most of the nutrients is either caught up in the living biomass or is washed away by the rain. Its absolute crap and only will yield quality crops for a couple of seasons at most before it is no longer viable for agriculture. This is why the rainforests are being cleared so quickly, farmers use the land for a year or two and then move on.

[heavyp83]

To anyone wondering about the validity of Mike Tyson's charachter, find youself a copy of the Beyond the Glory Fox special done on him recently. It includes interviews and I think is proof enough to judge this book by its cover. Sorry to get off topic, I just wanted to try and clear this up a bit.

Sorry Pete_Smith, but Mike Tyson doesn't pay me $$$ to analyze his actions towards keeping rare and exotic animals. Least to mention, I don't know him and never met him before. So, personally I have no regards to make such a premature judgment.

Personally, human intervention is needed in many areas on this planet (reasons: for conservation and preservation). Too many ducks in a lake will not be good so we need hunters; too many pigeons in the city is no good so we lay out bait traps. If the populous of certain animals grow we will have more problems with infestations of insects and viral ailments.

This conversation is heavy as many will not agree to human intervention. Balance is needed on this planet.

And like what was posted by Al, Ryan and others in regard to the greed in exploiting these small poor countries and leaving the ruins in these poor countries, this is a way of living for many of those folks. Unfortunate, but it's true. And they don't think of their actions because truthfully we all live under the influence of the big bill. We need to eat and sleep.

Oooh.... I sound like a freakin' teacher and a politician again... Sorry folks. Wake up now. Class dismissed.

Getting back to Discus... ;)

**Angie**

[jn4u]

Well, I also have wild-caught discus in my tanks and I know better every one else. But I don't like this, well no problem, etc...

But if every one is looking for this redspotted greens? What happends with this dicsus in there territory they are found. This will effect the populations in these territory.

I think some type of control would bee good? Why don't breeding first generation in the area of the amazon.

Or when you read about a when some introduce discus in "new" riversystem. What happends with the normal fish?

[wildthing]

Well, I also have wild-caught discus in my tanks and I know better every one else. But I don't like this, well no problem, etc...

But if every one is looking for this redspotted greens? What happends with this discus in there territory they are found. This will effect the populations in these territory.

I think some type of control would be good? Why don't breeding first generation in the area of the amazon.

Or when you read about a when some introduce discus in "new" riversystem. What happends with the normal fish?




RSG are an interesting example. The ones currently coming in from Peru are an 'un-natural' population.
There were none there until about 15-20 yrs ago ( it used to be cheaper & easier to bring fish out from Tefe via Peru ) when a guy called Bustamente, in an act of bio-piracy, during a flood, "accidentally" released a whole bunch of selected Brazilian RSGs there into the Nanay. As you can see. Discus thrive anywhere given a chance. Of course, this type of action is very illegal these days , as it can in certain circumstances lead to big problems for indiginous fish populations ( ie: snakeheads in Maryland)
There are major threats to Amazon fish populations but 99.99% of them come from loss of habitat & pollution, NOT from fishing

[hanleong]

I feel that as long as the environment that discus needs isn’t destroyed then their isn't a problem harvesting some fish. The absence of fish competing for the same area increases the survival rate of new fish and the harvested fish is soon replaced, without the fish being harvested the fish that would have replaced it, may not find an area suitable to survive and becomes lunch for a predator. From whet I've seen discus are taken with a net and a light at night, I really doubt that the percentage on fish that find themselves in the right conditions (or wrong) where they are even visible to a collector using this method is large enough to make any impact. Now, if collecting discus becomes destructive then their will be a problem. What I fear is the use of chemicals like those used to collect marine life, or large netting operations that remove every fish from large areas in the river.


Absolutely! exact what I have in my mind..

Catching the wilds is not a problem, it's the method they use that matters.. let's hope that the catching operation will remain that small and simple.. and there wont be people from ALL over the world, trying to set up a holding area/nursery anywhere too near to the rivers

However, if we look from a bigger perspective, of the amazon region, there are much more tacky issues that we should be concerned.. especially the clearing of land for farming and the logging of forest trees... and thus the destruction of the natural habital for many species of animals!..

hmm.. lets use less paper (or use both sides of paper!)