Color Inheritance

[Carol_Roberts]

This was posted by Conrad and Winnie of Creativediscus

Let's say if we take two types of discus and crossed, the percentage of either one that hits more than 50% is the dominant one.

Dominant genes-( pigeon,white,ghost )
Any cross with pigeon almost all the offspring will inherit the black pigments hence we term pigeon as very dominant in passing the black pigment. As for the white it's the reverse,if you cross it with other discus not much of anything from the other discus turns out. The white are dominant in not having any color and pattern incorparated in the F1 crossed

Weak gene-Golden
Golden are the weakest gene in the discus pool. If you cross it with any strains you would probably get 85% of the other strain's gene and only 15% from the golden's gene in the F1. If you want to create a goldensnake( gold base ) you have to cross the F1 back with the golden again(choose the 14bars)and repeat till F3 before you can get a good looking goldensnake.

Unstable genes-any discus with snakeskin gene
Snake skin are mutation from turquoise and this strain can never be fixed hence we term it unstable because if you cross snakeskin with snakeskin,spottedsnake with spottedsnake you will get two types of offsprings the 14bars(snake type) and 9bars(throw back)

Recessive gene-Spotted
Let's say you have a pair of define spotted discus(leopard,R.S.G.spotted snake) you crossed it and produced F1 with beautiful spots than you crossed the F1 with F1 the F2 will still attain beautiful spots,but as you go on about F4 you will notice that the red spots starts to merge and join into red lines, this is what we term as recessive the more you crossed(in breeding)you loss it's potency of spots.To remedy this you have to cross back with a prominent spotted one.

Like to thank all those who have welcome us,we can feel the warm all the way here.
Hope this can help answer some questions from rnorca and pete.

Creativediscus

[mark neill]

Thanks for a great subject Carol.

Iam new to this forum and find it very informative.

I live in Scotland and am interested in the methods of discus keeping around the world.

Thanks again and I look forward to more of your posts.


Mark

[liz]

I have noticed with my little fry that some have light bodies and some are darker with sort of little bars.The female being a Blue Turq and the male a Gold Pigeon.

[Carol_Roberts]

The light ones are pigeons and the dark ones with bars are turks. Your daddy pigeon must be a cross

[liz]

Thanks again Carol for all the great information.So the dark ones should be Blue Turqs and the lighter ones Pigeon crosses.I have some more questions for you sorry :)The other pair I have which are in the community tank at present are a Blue Diamond and an Orange Pigeon now if I can get them in their own tank and they can get it right what colours would the fry be.Also is it better to breed two of the same kind.

[Carol_Roberts]

If the pigeon is pure you will get 100% pigeon including blue panda pigeon (I think). If the pigeon is a cross you will get a mix of pigeon, blue turks and blue panda

I think it is better to breed two of the same kind. You get less pepper if you breed pigeon to pigeon. You lose the solid color if you cross a Blue diamond.

[troy]

Good stuff Carol, just what i was wanting to read.
Very interesting.

[Miles]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

8)

[jason87]

may i ask u a question? is there any bad for throw backs?(9bars)

[Carol_Roberts]

Snakeskins will produce 9 bars and 15 bars, etc. It isn't bad. It's just not a snakeskin

[jason87]

oh i got it. then it will turn out to be a turq?

[Carol_Roberts]

yes ;D

[jason87]

lets say for a pure golden which has 14 bars. then the throwbacks of the offsprings will become what?

[Carol_Roberts]

Goldens were derived from browns

[jason87]

so the throwbacks will become brown rite? thnx

[Rob]

Excellent info:
I hoped you might be able help me.
I finally got two of my discus to breed, the father I was told is a PB and the mother is a Golden Tangerine.
The babies look roughly 7/8 'golden tangerine' and 1/8 striped, (See pics.)

Any guess to what the father is?

[Rob]

The striped ones

[jason87]

looks like a turq

[Carol_Roberts]

Both parents have to carry a red turk or brown gene for this pigeon and golden tangerine pair to produce a percentage of red turk or brown babies.

[nokoto]

Carol

It would be great to have a bit more indepth info on this subject where possible...

As you know i have to PB's some of the fry have I believe reverted back to Red Turks not sure...

How can you really define the parent proir to breeding, or is this not possible...

Cheers Wayne

[Carol_Roberts]

I can see faint vertical bars (actually peppering bars) on my PB crosses

[nokoto]

Hi Carol

Can you advise of any good books that go into deepth in the colour inheritance, and how to cross breed to try and get desired results...

Or is this just something you learn along the way...?

Cheers Wayne

[Carol_Roberts]

Shaifulla Yeng "Penang Discus" has a nice chapter.

[nokoto]

Carol have you got the ISBN number handy

Wayne

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't have the ISBN. I believe Oliver Lucanus at Below Water (banner at bottom of page) had them for sale

[swvadiscus]

you said that the pigeon gene was dominant....and that peppering was undesireable.

This may be a stupid questin....but this has sparked my curiosity.

Has anyone ever breed for the peppering to achieve a solid black Discus?

[Carol_Roberts]

I've never seen a picture of one, but it might work.

[jaydoc]

In the original post to start this stream, it is mentioned that f4 genereations and beyond of RSG egress to wavy lines and must be bread back to keep the spots. If RSG is awild variety, why don't you see this in the wild caught RSG? In the wild it seems to me that they breed true. Any thoughts?

[Carol_Roberts]

Inbreeding is rare in the wild

[jaydoc]

So inbreeding is the key word? Not just four generations of captive breeding but four generations from the same stock results in deterioration of the pattern. Am I following correctly?

[Carol_Roberts]

That was my understanding

[rcubeiii]

My SS pair is throwing 3 different kinds of babies. There are some red turqs, but the majority are SS, which is consistent with earlier postings on this thread. The third type has the same body color as the others, but no visible bars. Some have a very faint SS pattern. I'm assuming these are SS, but just short on the pigmentation for the vertical bars. Does this sound right?

Also, nearly all of the smallest fish have no bars, although not all the "no-bars" are small. In fact some are among the biggest. The small ones are all healthy, just not growing as fast as the others. My theory is that the gene for the bars is linked to some other gene that contains a growth factor. Therefore if the gene for bars is missing, there is also a higher frequency of poor growth. Any comments or experience?

[Carol_Roberts]

No bars - I wonder if there is some pigeon blood in the background then

[rcubeiii]

Do PBs have no bars? Some of the bigger ones with no bars are starting to get some blue color, particularly in the anal fin. Will be interesting to see how they turn out. Some also have a little darker brown edging to the dorsal and anal fin, but most are a uniform reddish golden brown.

[Carol_Roberts]

Pigeons have no bars - do you see any peppering on the barless ones?

[rcubeiii]

No peppering at all. Background color is very uniform across the entire body and fins. Some blue beginning to appear in fins. You can see pics of some of the babies in my posting under Buy/Sell topic. One baby in the pics shows no bars.

[Carol_Roberts]

I looked at your post - I bet your SS arre siblings and have blue diamond in the background

[lauris]

I have fry from a pb female and a brown male. About 2/3 of the fry show bars, the rest do not, but do have some black specks. I would be interested in hearing what experiences others may have had with this cross. Is there any relation between the amount of speckling on the fry and the amount of pepper in an adult pigeon blood? What would one expect from these fry as far as adult coloring? Are the barred fry turks? brown? I really have no clue where the various strains come from or what crosses throw and would be interested in any information. Thanks.

[Carol_Roberts]

Heavily speckled fry will be heavily speckled adults. Your fry with bars could be turk, browns and some in between.

[rcubeiii]

You might be right, Carol. In my last batch of babies, there was one fish that was blue. It was the one very weak fish in the batch and remained very small, eventually dying at about 4 weeks. The presence of this fish points to a blue diamond as a recessive gene.

[Larry Grenier]

There seems to be 2 different "branches" if you will of barless fish. PBs (isn't the peppering a remnant of the bars?) and the other group of seemingly barless fish like Blue Diamonds, Red Rose, Solid Whites...

Comments, rebuttals, criticisms...

How did the barless Blue Diamonds or other non PB barless discus come about?

Cool thread 8)

[magic1980]

hi, will like to ask something.

i will like to check out the possible baby of the following.

1) red turquoise X red fine line snake skin
2) red fine line snake skin X blue diamond
3) red turquoise X blue diamond

cos currently got these 3 types of discus.
wonder what each will result.

pls and thks for help.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Larry:
All are different mutations. You are correct pigeons are the only ones with the vestigal bars appearing as pepper. I don't remember how each was created - that might be a good article for a NADA newletter ;D

Hi Magic:
Blue diamond is recessive. If you cross BD with RT or SS you will get a barred fish with a thick or thin (SS) line pattern.

RT X SS will result in some of both
Bye for now,
CArol

[magic1980]

thks carol.

carol i got another question on topics eggs.
pls help over there.

[Howie_W]

How did the barless Blue Diamonds or other non PB barless discus come about?




The barless fish are all the result of a mutation. The discovery of a female with a number of missing stress bars paved the way for future breeding until a solid blue fish with no stress bars finally came about. Pigeons were produced similarly. The more fish that that are allowed to breed with the prominent specs, the more fish you'll see with less "clean" overall color.

Howie

[tanyingzhou]

hi carol
seems tt u are very busy entertaining us with all our ques
here's another one :P
what if i cross a red white with a snakeskin, what will i get?

[Augusto Gadelha]

Hi Carol,

If i have a Red Malboro X Wild Green pair what i will get from them? RM, WG, Both or a Mix?

[discusboy777]

hi carol what will i get if i crossed a red turq with a pigieon

many thanks

[bio new]

Hi All,


Any idea what are the NO GO strains to cross with RSG? And what are the most recommended cross?

CHEERS!

[Carol_Roberts]

RSG are used in many crosses. Pigeon would probably be least desirable.

[bio new]

RSG are used in many crosses. Pigeon would probably be least desirable.

Thx Carol, you are always a great help.

I believe if I x it with SS should be o.k. How about with BD? Just a matter of curiosity, why is x with pigeon is least desirable?

CHEERS!

[VOYTEK]

Hmmm How do you think will babies of Golden ( male ) and San Merah (female ) probably look like ??? - golden genes wonn't be that visible ???


Thanks for all replies

voytek

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Bio New:
I believe if I x it with SS should be o.k. That will be a fine combination.
How about with BD? also a pretty combination with fine striations on a powder blue body
Just a matter of curiosity, why is x with pigeon is least desirable? Too much pepper.


Hi Voytek:
Golden ( male ) and San Merah (female ) probably look like ??? - golden genes wonn't be that visible ??? I'm not sure, but think they would look more like San Merah - maybe more rusty cinnamon than red.

[VOYTEK]

cool ;) we'll see how will they look like (ps. fish has eggs right now and it'snot the first time - lasttimethey spawnedin community tank with huge waterflow which "sucked" babies into the filters :(

hope it will bo OK this time

ps. my san merah is already "rusty cinnamon, with some "ash like" placeson it's center part of the body ;)

ONCE AGAIN THANK YOU CAROL,

ps I'll try to post some pictures later on ...


voytek

[bio new]

[QUOTE=Carol_Roberts]Hi Bio New:
I believe if I x it with SS should be o.k. That will be a fine combination.
How about with BD? also a pretty combination with fine striations on a powder blue body
Just a matter of curiosity, why is x with pigeon is least desirable? Too much pepper.



Thanks alot Carol.

[Northwestcoastdisc]

Hi Carol,

what is about my male yellow Sunrise yellow is pigeon blood with Snowflake white female. What look like the offspring?

thanks

Duncan

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't know - I have some paired up now, but no fertilized eggs yet . . .

[funkyfish]

how bout a bd and a blue snakeskin? i have not gotten to the breeding yet
but i have a bd and bss that seam to lik each other just corius
thanks

[Northwestcoastdisc]

Hi Carol,

LOL We are same thing to do.



Hi funkyfish,

The Blue Diamond x Blue snakeskins offsprings are awesome! they are very pretty colors. The offsprings might have 3 or 4 diffrent strains.
1) Blue diamonds as the parent.
2) Blue snakeskins as the parent.
3)more nice blue colors full pattern some of red lines fins.
4) possable solid blue with red lines on fins

Look at Dan's Discsu at Gulf of Discus.

HTH

Duncan

[funkyfish]

thanks northwest that's a fine lookin fish u got there

[tpl*co]

OK, what about a cross with a Manderin Passion?

I was wanting a red fish x like a red white or a red melon, what would the babies look like?

(she on the other hand has been getting friendly with my RT, what would the babies look like if I can't change her mind with another male? )

[Carol_Roberts]

You would have to use a white based discus like a snowflake to try to develop a red/white. F1 pigeon crosses to barred discus like red turks may have lots of pepper

[simkey]

Hi everyohne!

Who know what will be the babys from Teffe & Red T. or Leopard RSS & Red T. or Teffe & Leopard RSS!Any idea?

Thank you all!

[Carol_Roberts]

I would guess something that looks more like a red turk

[simkey]

Well I dont know yet becouse my discus are yunior of 8-10 cm.I bought them in Duisburg 2004 and now I do WC and feed a lot.I'm interesting in strains that may future pairs could have.Anyway thanks!

[dtownkennel]

hey carol,


this is really interesting stuff to read...makes me want to ask too...heheh
what would you get if you cross a marlboro red with a red cover??? will there be peppering?

andrew

[NatakuTseng]

Been trying to figure this one out and from the sounds of it I'm gonna be ending up with mostly Blue Turqs. Would be a Male Blue SSX with a Female Blue Turq. From what I've gathered if my head isn't still spinning too much, since you get the throw back of 9 bars even with breeding two Snakes then by adding the Blue Turq blood into the mix the off spring should be almost all blue turqs. What do you guys think?

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Andrew - sorry I didn't see your post earlier. You will get peppering with the pigeon cross.

Hi NatakuTseng:
Yes, you will get predominately turks with the SS x turk cross

[NatakuTseng]

Thanks for confirming that Carol.

[Jdawgg]

Very interesting read!!! I had totally wrong concept going. I thought if ya cross 2 differtent strains you would get 1/4 to look like dad, 1/4 to look like mom, and 1/2 to look like a combination of the two. I guess the dominant and recessive genes do change things quite a bit. So I would assume to keep a LSS strain strong, with good spotting, you should breedback to RSG..or to a good F2 LSS. Is this sounding correct?

[Carol_Roberts]

BD is recessive so none would look like bd. Mostly you would get a mix of cobalts, turks and SS.

[Kenny's Discus]

Carol - first of all thanks for your prompt reply. If u don't mind I need to ask for your expertise 1 more time :-)

I recently have fries resulting from a male Red_White and female BD,(mentioned to u in previous posts b4), now the fries are about 1 month old and they mainly consist of 2 types: one type with throwback (9 bars) and the other type with SS kind of gold bars (although there's no bar appearing across the eye). I guess my question is: why do I get babies with bars when both their parents are non-barred fish?

Also, do you think the "SS" type babies are truly SS? (then why no bar across the eye?) Thanks so much again.

[Carol_Roberts]

I'm guessing the red/white has SS in prior generation - The 15 bar babies should have fine lines and gillplate spotting like SS. The ones without eyebars maybe whites. Some of the whites may have 15 faint bars too

[Kenny's Discus]

Carol, its me again :-)

Today I saw some really nice Cloud Leopard (fine spots all over body) in a LFS of mine and was wondering if I should buy some and cross them with my Leopard/LSS at home. So here are my questions :-0

Cloud Leopard x LSS = ?

Cloud Leopard x Leopard = ?

Cloud Leopard x Cloud Leopard = ?

-also, is there a difference between a Cloud Leopard and a Cloud Leopard Snakeskin?

Thank you so much Carol.

[Carol_Roberts]

Anything with snake skin will have a finer (smaller) pattern and spots. All of those should make a good cross.

[Kenny's Discus]

Thank you for your info as usual, Carol. :-)

[satty]

Hey carol i got a question to ask,all this cross breeding is done through natures way(Fertilisation of the egss by the male) or has anyone tried the invitro fertilisation where u fertilise the egg and sperm in your own lab and try to raise the young ones?

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Interesting info here.

I was wondering if there was some kind of chart or anything that would show what makes what or possibly an ancestry chart of some kind to trace the roots of different strains.

I wish to try my hand at some breeding down the road and something like that would be a huge help in deciding what type of discus to purchase now to grow out into breeders.

I love the looks of the eruption strains with a light background and bright colorful spots all over. What does it take to get the eruptions?

[cruzzinchop]

Hello,
I have a Blue diamond snakeskin that paired up with my golden yellow PB. The yellow has a bit of PB in it due to the black pepper around the edges of it's fins.

What should the outcome of the 2 mixed up be?

Thanks for any help!!!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b290/cruzzinchop/2005_1122pair0005.jpg


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b290/cruzzinchop/2005_1122pair0002.jpg


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b290/cruzzinchop/2005_1122pair0001.jpg

[cruzzinchop]

Any ideas on the above mix in the pics????

They have layed twice now in the last 2 weeks. The first batch I was gone and they ate them and the second batch all turned white and then they ate them. I am hoping they get it together soon.

Thanks

[Carol_Roberts]

Striated pigeons and Pigeonblood snakeskins. Most all will have more pepper than the parent.

[lauren0626]

Hi Carol,
I'm looking to buy some new fish and would result in the following pairs:
LSS x Albino
LSS x Eruption
Eruption x Albino
Will any of the above be desirable/undesirable? If desirable what will the offsprings be?
Many thank,
Lauren

[Carol_Roberts]

LSS X Albino = no albino (recessive), some LSS, some Leopards
LSS X Eruption = some LSS, some Leopards
Eruption X Albino = no albino see above.

It is important to know what the albino gene is masking. If it is a pigeon albino then you are effectively crossing a pigeon with a LSS. Albino gene means the color is not expressed.

[lauren0626]

Hi Carol,
Thanks for answering my questions!
Lauren

[leonie]

This is shuch a good thread so much info!

I have a breeding pair the female is an alencer? (we think pretty sure shes not a red turq.) and the male is a blue dimond. About 60% of the babies seem to have inherited her genes red bodies black bars and blue markings, and the others not sure they seem to have the red colouring nearly no bars (very faint if any at all) with blue markings on top and bottom fins with a blueish gloden sheen over their bodies. What do you think these could be?
Thanks heaps Leonie:p :p

[grelot]

maybe they will look like some kind of san merah.

[leonie]

but wont that mean one of the parents will have to have some san merah in them? and if so which one the male bd has got some gold at the very base of his ventral fins and a gold strip in his anal fin?

[dtownkennel]

Hi Carol,

Just curious what crosses actually make up a white butterfly???

Drew

[Carol_Roberts]

I can only make guesses as to what breeders used to create certain strains. The white pigeon type fish were probably crossed with blue diamonds originally to produce less pattern and more white on the fry.

[matte_g]

Hello Carol.

Do you think the offspring from this pair only gona be PBB?

[steve.ryall]

Hi Carol,

I hope you can give me some idea of what the outcome of a pair that I have might be.
I have a Red Spotted Green (male) and a PB (female). The male is in the avatar below my name. Any guesses as to the colour of the fry, should they decide to lay eggs?

Thanks Carol,

Steve:)

[Alight]

From my experience with a PB crossed with Red Turq (not too much different) you will get lots of heavily peppered PB of various varieties. Some may be fairly attractive, some not.

I won't breed any more of these given the outcome of the first batch of these.

Al Light

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, pigeon is dominant. If one parent came from two pigeons and the other parent came from two blue or green striated discus then all babies will be pigeons with various amount of pepper.

[matte_g]

Hello one more question for you Carol...

I have one wild Alenquer and one Blue diamond, what kind of babies do i get from them?

[jolle]

hi, i also have a cuestion how you might think the young from my snakeskin/pigeon pair might look. bouth male and female are 50/50% snakeskin/pigeon and from the same litter.

jolle.

[Alight]

For matte G, I have bred a blue diamond with a red turquoise, again very similar to the Alenquer you show. The result was quite nice. Many of the fry are very nice red turquoise, some are solid blue, looking exactly like blue diamonds except for a strip in the iris of the eye. Many are in between and would be classified as cobalt blues. All look very, very nice. I'm breeding this pair again as I wait for some fry that are blue diamond x red melon to grow out so I can see if their color is going to be any good.

Al Light

[matte_g]

For matte G, I have bred a blue diamond with a red turquoise, again very similar to the Alenquer you show. The result was quite nice. Many of the fry are very nice red turquoise, some are solid blue, looking exactly like blue diamonds except for a strip in the iris of the eye. Many are in between and would be classified as cobalt blues. All look very, very nice. I'm breeding this pair again as I wait for some fry that are blue diamond x red melon to grow out so I can see if their color is going to be any good.

Al Light

Do you have any pictures???

[Alight]

I posted some when they were babies in the Buy sell trade, but have been meaning to post some of the Juvies (now 4 inches--4 months old). I'll try to put some of those up and some of the BD X red melon fry that are just beginning to color up.

Al

[Alight]

OK, hope the pictures work. These are the Blue Diamond (the male) X Red Turquoise (the female) crosses. This pic is of 5 of the 8 I kept from a batch of over 80. These 8 are now 4 months old, and 4 - 4.5 inches from nose to end of tail. If you want to see what the parents look like, and what these looked like as babies, go to:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=46815

and go down through the thread.

[Alight]

Some closeups. This is a cobalt almost BD-like one. One is almost entirely BD, but the pick didn't come out too good (it's near the last of these). The fin is not up straight here, because it's cowering a bit from the BD-like one that is the king of the tank. It's the second from the right in the photo above (the BD-like one that is).

[Alight]

Some Red Turq like Juvies.

[Alight]

RT - like close up.

[Alight]

Lousy photo of BD-like Juvie.

[Alight]

Last pic is of BD X Red Melon cross. These are 2 inch fry, just starting to show some color.

[jolle]

hi carol.
i also have a question how you might think the young from my snakeskin/pigeon pair might look. bouth male and female are first generation 50/50% snakeskin/pigeon and from the same litter.

jolle.

[matte_g]

Here is another pair i would like to know what the fry will look like?

[kaceyo]

Matte-g,
I did a cross very much like yours in the pic and got about 2/3 pigeons and 1/3 barred. The pigeons were mostly solid yellows (like mom), a couple had white/blue markings going into the body. All pgn's were peppery, but not real bad. The barred were mostly browns with a very red/orange hue and a few w/markings into the body. Very nice looking browns. I wouldn't do it again though.

Kacey

[jolle]

hi carol.
i also have a question how you might think the young from my snakeskin/pigeon pair might look. bouth male and female are first generation 50/50% snakeskin/pigeon and from the same litter.

jolle.

[Carol_Roberts]

They'll produce some turks, a few SS and lots of pigeons with varying amounts of pepper :)

[jolle]

ok thanx;)

[tiara1018]

Wow Carol! You are amazing! I have been reading TONS of your posts....Very informative!

I just bought some 4 month old discus the mom was Candy apple red, and Dad was Cobalt blue. Right now, two of them have dark bars, and the other two only have a bar through the eye....They are tanish color right now....Do you know what color they will end up being? Thanks soooo much for taking your time to help everyone, you are so great!!!!

Tiara
(newbie addicted to discus :) )

[Carol_Roberts]

If candy apple is another name for red turquoise then they will be marked somewhere between the parents. . . .

[sublevel007]

Does anyone have pics of what a pigeon and blue diamond look like?

[Carol_Roberts]

Many have a nearly white body with bluish fins. Many are heavily peppered.

[Dark Lord]

Wow..

This is indeed very good info. I had cross the following:

1. Red Checker with a red melon (sort of red body, white head)

and obtain the following off springs..

1. Barless with peppering

2. Barless with blue line around the head and fin area..

3. Barless with a very clean(pale) color..

Any clue to what I am getting? They are currently about 2 inch in size...and are dying to know what I will get..

[sleonard]

What will result from Red Melon X Red Melon?

Scott

[LizStreithorst]

Great info, Caroll. I'm especaily interested in what you had to say about the Spotted Snake Skins.

I'm curious about what you to say about about Goldens. Personally, I have never seen what is refered to as a "Golden". As you say, a TRUE Golden is a result of selectively breeding of Browns. The suposedly "Golden's" that I have seen (and was told contained NO Pigeon Blood blood) ALL obviously contained Pigeon Blood blood.

Have you actually seen Golden's that you feld were not Pigeons? If so, I would like to purchase some.

[Timbo]

What will result from Red Melon X Red Melon?

lol i'm guessing mostly more Red Melons :)

[sleonard]

lol i'm guessing mostly more Red Melons :)

So am I but am not sure. I think they are Pigeon based and if they are that would make it more likely (I think) to get homogeneous offspring but they could produce offspring in the manner of SS, LSS, etc. that includes a variety of different patterns. Hence my question.

Scott

[Harriett]

This is one of the most interesting threads to me that have come along in quite a while--I have learned a bunch and wanted to say thank you to Carol and to the other folks who have offered information on this topic. Way cool.
Harriett!

[grelot]

I depend of the genetics of their parent and grand parents and at which generation of melons they are. But often you get red melons and rose reds and maybe some marlboros. You can get other things if they have anything else hidden in their genetical background.

And yes Red melons are pigeon bloods.

[matte_g]

Here is another pair i would like to know what the fry will look like?

[Carol_Roberts]

White eyed/white based is dominant over pigeon blood. Probably all will favor the white based fish with a variety of body markings.

[aussiejas]

carol ive just acquired six 3cm babys from a golden pigion pair. how long will it take for them to start showing colour?

[aussiejas]

sorry carol page 7 just answered my question, thanks anyway!

[novice breeder]

Hi Carol,
Can you help me With the following:
What are the possible outcomes and percentages of young looking closer to one type for the following:

1. SE( Spotted eruptions) x lss

2. SE x solid blue ss

3. SE x leopard

4. SE x rsg

5. SE x brilliant blue turq straited.

Thanking You in advance.

[baby blue]

Hello Carol,
I find out that this interesting topic with full of informative, useful information for discus breeders have no reply for over a year.
Therefore i post this, appeal to your help and hope this topic work again.
You know, there's something which confused me for a long time and i couldn't find the best answer to the problem.
As far as we are concearned, many people breed their discus under the influence of color encouraging food with purpose of making them improve color in a very fast speed.
For instance, i breed my BD with food making from natural ingredients that has green color on it.
Time goes by and then i discover four of my BD grow fast, get stronger with greenish skin.
My question is will fry from these BD inherit their parents' color (i mean that greenish one) or they still get the original blue color ?
In additon, i wonder if there is anything related to genetics of color in this case.
please don't get offense if my questiones are considered something peculiar in your opinion.
Thanks a lot.

[Timbo]

My question is will fry from these BD inherit their parents' color (i mean that greenish one) or they still get the original blue color ?


they will be blue.

think of it this way :) if I dye my hair black, does that mean my kids may be born with black hair? or if my wife paints her nails red, will our babies have red nails?

color inheritance is just that, inheritance from the genes of the parents. color food does not affect their genes. hope that helps baby blue :)

[kaceyo]

If all the fish are given the same enhancers/diet etc, I think there is a very good chance that a few of the offspring could inherit, and pass on, the greener coloring. If the spawn were split and half got the enhancer while half did not, and the enhanced group were greener, then you'd know the enhancer probably effected the color. But in this case all were fed the same diet and a few looked greener.
The Ocean Green was developed by taking BD's that had a greener look and seperating them from the rest to be bred for the green coloring.
Baby blue, is the enhancer your talking about Spirolina? If not, what is it.

Kacey

[Timbo]

If all the fish are given the same enhancers/diet etc, I think there is a very good chance that a few of the offspring could inherit, and pass on, the greener coloring.

not if the green color came from color food they wont. it has to be in the genes to be passed to successive generations. color food does not alter chromosomes; it may change the color of the light reflected from the fishes cells (temporarily), but it will not change the DNA and will not be passed to the fry (you COULD feed the fry color food and achieve the same color, but it wont be because they inherited it)

[kaceyo]

Of course it wouldn't be passed on in the genes if it was due to the enhancer. Thats a given. I thought I covered that but I must not have done a good job. I meant that it sounds to me as if the green was not an effect of the color enhancer, as all fish recieved it. Also, I don't know of any enhancers that will bring out the green that don't also bring out the blue. The way enhancers work is that they "enhance" the fishes natural colors, and won't turn a blue fish green.

Kacey

[baby blue]

Thanks a lot for your help.
You two should be experienced breeders.
For this thing :

Baby blue, is the enhancer your talking about Spirolina? If not, what is it.


As a matter of fact, i notice that Spirolina is so rare, it's really hard to find some in the area i live.
Thus, i think about another way. That is a use of beefheart and water from pandan leaves.
http://i18.tinypic.com/2zqfn7d.jpg
I'm not sure if you ever heard of this.
After a week, i see difference on my fish' skin.
I think those natural leaves won't have any bad effect on my fish or cause any mutation. And green form these is obviously more showy than red from beef heart.
How about Spirolina, is it better? I never use so i have no idea. Anybody has checked it?

[kaceyo]

Spirolina is a blue/green algea that has a number of benifits. Enhancing blue, green and even colors in the red spectrum. It is high in fiber and helps keep things moving along, andhas many other nutients. It's dried into a powder and can be added to any homemade mix or you can buy flakes, pellets etc that have it in them. It's also sold in health food stores for use by humans, but I don't think it's for color enhancment in that case.

[Canadian_velvet]

I can only make guesses as to what breeders used to create certain strains. The white pigeon type fish were probably crossed with blue diamonds originally to produce less pattern and more white on the fry.

So then what might happen if you cross a silver pigeon (white with small orange dots) with a BD? Will the babies stay light coloured or would it turn into a peppered mess?

[Kindredspirit]

I do not know ~ but I really love that discus in your avatar, Canadina Velvet! A lot:) Wild? Heckel? Both are the same? lol! I am just now starting to become more interested in them....I know absolutely nothing about either:o

Marie~ :balloon:

[robust discus]

hi carol,
It seem you are very in depth into color inheritance. I just wonder what would the off spring look like between a white butterfly and a snakeskin (future goal).

Thanx.

[oshp132]

What if I get a successful spawn from these two? Any ideas on the offspring?

MIKE

[keef]

Hi Carol - I have just had a high body blue diamond & brown pair up. As the BD gene is recessive will all the offspring be straight browns or may there be some variation? Thanx!

[dishpanhands]

Hi Carol - I have just had a high body blue diamond & brown pair up. As the BD gene is recessive will all the offspring be straight browns or may there be some variation? Thanx!

FYI Carol hasn't been around in awhile. don't wait on her to reply..

[Eddie]

Hi Carol - I have just had a high body blue diamond & brown pair up. As the BD gene is recessive will all the offspring be straight browns or may there be some variation? Thanx!

Might try to send a PM to Rod, he is part of the Simply Discus University Team. He is an expert on the subject IMO.

Eddie

[keef]

OK thanks guys. I actually spoke to Darren @ A1 yesterday and he pretty much answered this question for me, so all is good. Cheers.

[mbooc2]

Hey Carol, I'm new to Discus Breeding. I was wondering what colors to expect when I breed out an (albino golden*eruption leopard) intermediate x (albino golden * eruption leopard) intermediate. Both parents right now have mainly brown pigmentation and slight leopard prints on the outer and lower fins. Any help would be appreciated.

Best Regards,
Mark

[Eddie]

Hey Carol, I'm new to Discus Breeding. I was wondering what colors to expect when I breed out an (albino golden*eruption leopard) intermediate x (albino golden * eruption leopard) intermediate. Both parents right now have mainly brown pigmentation and slight leopard prints on the outer and lower fins. Any help would be appreciated.

Best Regards,
Mark

Carol hasn't been on the forum in several years

[pastry]

well maybe there are enough of us around to answer one anothers questions. I've been waiting awhile to see pics from someone on a tangerine x brilliant turquoise cross (which I'm sure isn't the prettiest sight but I'd love to see pics). I also have a problem right now with all of my PB's & Tangerines pairing up with my blues... I can't figure it out. I just had my first wigglers (first time I actually set up a tank dedicated to breeding... otherwise always have discus spawning in community tank) and I was actually QT'ing two Hans discus (Marlboro and a Snake Skin)... before you know it, the two are laying eggs AND THEY'RE TINY! I thought the eggs wouldn't be fertile since believing they're still young but hey, like I said, I've got wigglers.

so, if you have pics of crosses (accidental or on purpose) that may answer some of these folks questions then PLEASE post them. If I can raise the current batch then I'll take pics and post them (won't be impressive, but may answer someone elses question)... THANKS!

[SHAD0W]

I have a Red Melon and a Blue Turq and they seem to be shimmying? Is that mating behavior? I don't intend on breeding them as I only have a community tank, but what would the fry look like?

[sion]

great info on color throw backs ...this site is very informative .even for and experienced person ..its all about info discus lovers..... its a disease .caring for discus ..a good disease !!!!:D

[ss16534]

hi i have read that PB and White are strong gene so wht happen if we breed PB and white what fry would be like ? have anyone had breed this combination

[pupfish]

If you go back far enough in the thread, Carol mentions that the white gene trumps the black on PB, so at least you shouldn't have the majority peppering. Also, I thought that the "peppering" was actually blue pigments over red and we see it as black. Can't remember the source on that right off-hand.

[tamim333]

I have a pair . In which male is red torquire and female is snakeskin .
Can u say how the fry will look like....plz reply

[PaytonGrant]

This is a lot to think about

[alex1980]

Hi, I have a female pigeon checkerboard pairing up with a nice large white leopard(gray base) male. What will be the outcome?

Alex

[Rod]

Hi, I have a female pigeon checkerboard pairing up with a nice large white leopard(gray base) male. What will be the outcome?

Alex

Hi Alex, Interesting mix. Depending on your pigeon blood genetics you will get about 50/50 pigeons/white crosses, variable patterned. Maybe some brown based types as well, that is if the pigeon is also a het like the white.

Post a pic if you have success.

Rod

[Spyke]

With a white PB and a red PB, will the white be dominant? I would love it if more of the brood would come out with a majority of white on the body and less pattern.

[timmylucas]

Thanks for the guide. very interesting

[mee]

With a Heckel X, would a stripeless fish be the best bet for getting heckle barring on the offspring? Specifically I have a 9 stripe Heckel X which is crossed with a Turq variant (see my avatar). The fish shows dual heckel bars (5th and 6th). I would be happy to end up with more 9 stripes with dual bars, or perhaps even better yet some super fat single bars. Would Red, VS, Yellow, VS Blue have any disadvantages vs advantages when looking for a counterpart?

[Rod]

With a white PB and a red PB, will the white be dominant? I would love it if more of the brood would come out with a majority of white on the body and less pattern.

The white coverage of a pb is controlled by multiple genes, meaning that it will not dominate when crossed with a red. You should receive some progeny where the white could well have a full coverage, but If you want to increase the white coverage overall in the spawn, i would breed with an already white fish like white butterfly and selectively breed for the white color from there.


With a Heckel X, would a stripeless fish be the best bet for getting heckle barring on the offspring? Specifically I have a 9 stripe Heckel X which is crossed with a Turq variant (see my avatar). The fish shows dual heckel bars (5th and 6th). I would be happy to end up with more 9 stripes with dual bars, or perhaps even better yet some super fat single bars. Would Red, VS, Yellow, VS Blue have any disadvantages vs advantages when looking for a counterpart?

Heckel stripe appears to be controlled by muliple genes and as far as i am aware noone has managed to fix the trait in an aquarium bred hybrid. Actually , it is worse than that. Never mind fixing the trait, this trait disappears completely from the population within a few generations without more heckel blood being bred into your line.

Good luck with this one, i love this type.

[nc0gnet0]

Heckel stripe appears to be controlled by muliple genes and as far as i am aware noone has managed to fix the trait in an aquarium bred hybrid. Actually , it is worse than that. Never mind fixing the trait, this trait disappears completely from the population within a few generations without more heckel blood being bred into your line.


I have mixed feelings on this. If they manage to fix the heckel bar trait in a domestic line, won't the wild heckel loose much of it's appeal? How will we ever know if a reported wild heckel x wild heckel succesful spawn is actually legit? I beteventually, over the course of the next several years, they are indeed able to fix the trait. Time will tell.

Rick

[Rod]

I don't think pure heckels would loose appeal. The heckel x's i have seen, i don't think there is any doubt they are not pure and people will always want the original. Happy to be proven wrong though, i will admit it would be quite the gold mine to have an easy breeding strain that threw pure looking heckels. :D

I would actually take your bet Rick, i think this one will be an impossible challenge. :)

[nc0gnet0]

I would actually take your bet Rick, i think this one will be an impossible challenge

Your on! :D

So do you think all the heckle crosses we are seeing now are F1 crosses between a male heckel and a female domestic?

[mee]

All interesting stuff. Well I have three Heckel crosses, 2 males and 1 female I believe. Wish it was the otherway around for ease of breeding one with a heckel. I suspect some are familiar with my fish already. They do have very nice baring, and it will be interesting to see what comes out of my future spawns. (watching some tail slapping at the moment fyi).

[Rod]

Your on! :D hehe. How long do you think you will need?


So do you think all the heckle crosses we are seeing now are F1 crosses between a male heckel and a female domestic? No, they would be from variable sources. These types are quite common in certain parts of the natural range. So natural sources, along with the hybrids performed in breeders tanks. Either source, the heckel bar seems to disappear over a few generations.

[Rod]

All interesting stuff. Well I have three Heckel crosses, 2 males and 1 female I believe. Wish it was the otherway around for ease of breeding one with a heckel. I suspect some are familiar with my fish already. They do have very nice baring, and it will be interesting to see what comes out of my future spawns. (watching some tail slapping at the moment fyi).

Hi mee, Is your avatar the heckel x you are referring to? Looks fantastic.

[nc0gnet0]

hehe. How long do you think you will need?


Hold on now, I didn't say I wold be able to fix the trait I say they (aka asian breeders) wold be able to fix the trait over the course of the next several years lol.

In my mind, my definition of fixing the trait would be getting a pair of heckle "x's" to breed 50% true (like a snakeskin or red/white) for at least three generations. What would your definition be?

Rick

[mee]

Hi mee, Is your avatar the heckel x you are referring to? Looks fantastic.

Yes, that is the first one I got, I have two more now. The avatar is the only one with 9 stripes and dual heckel baring though.
here's a video of the other two when they first came in. The male is colored down in the video, and the female is showing all of her bars. (now usually she shows just the one, and his is thick and dark now too. His halo is a bit muddy, and she really has the best color but he really has allot of beautiful reds. Plus he is about 7 1/2 inches !


https://vimeo.com/68902677

I am an American breeder in Asia, so I will throw my hat in the ring and try to be the one to fix the trait :p

[Rod]

Hold on now, I didn't say I wold be able to fix the trait I say they (aka asian breeders) wold be able to fix the trait over the course of the next several years lol.

In my mind, my definition of fixing the trait would be getting a pair of heckle "x's" to breed 50% true (like a snakeskin or red/white) for at least three generations. What would your definition be?

Rick


Strain definition was on the agenda :D I wanted to get a time frame worked out first.....you say you need 3 generations, sounds good and i agree to that.

Your definition of strain i will also agree with for this purpose. Remembering that snakeskin and red/white are really heterozygotes, and i question wheather a heterozygote could ever be considered as a true strain due to its inability to produce consistent looking progeny. But, i don't think even 50% is possible in 3 generations with the heckel bar, i'm guessing 25% at most, more likely 5 to 10%.

My own definition of strain would be most traits are at fixation within the population. Because the heckel bar trait appears to be controlled by muliple genes, then i would accept variation in the formation of the 5th bar(just like the wild heckel?), but i think they should all carry at least a hint of the heckel bar before you could safely put them in the strain catergory.

[Rod]

Yes, that is the first one I got, I have two more now. The avatar is the only one with 9 stripes and dual heckel baring though.
here's a video of the other two when they first came in. The male is colored down in the video, and the female is showing all of her bars. (now usually she shows just the one, and his is thick and dark now too. His halo is a bit muddy, and she really has the best color but he really has allot of beautiful reds. Plus he is about 7 1/2 inches !


https://vimeo.com/68902677

I am an American breeder in Asia, so I will throw my hat in the ring and try to be the one to fix the trait :p

Nice. I had a similar type at one stage, and my fish had a lot of red too.

Good luck with the breeding of this trait. Even lthough i don't think you will acheive it, this is a great platform for breeding some terrific striated turquoise discus. :D

[nc0gnet0]

Strain definition was on the agenda I wanted to get a time frame worked out first.....you say you need 3 generations, sounds good and i agree to that.

I don't think we are on the same page. I am NOT saying I could fix th trait in three generations. NO way no how. What I was alluding to is the fact that all the big players in the asian breeder market on now working on these heckel crosses. Tony Tan, Wayne Ng, Jefferey Yang, Wantanabe, Forrest, just to name a few. From this HUGE collective of tanks and breeding knowledge, I feel that fixing the trait (by them) is obtainable. I think THEY can reach that goal in the next several years.

I then went on to say or define what I considered at what point that achievement will have been met, which was producing a heckel cross that could pass on the trait in at least 50% of the offspring for at least three generations (at which point I think they would most likely need to be bred back to a heckle).

I think the heckel bar acts simular to the blue halo genetically, albeit a bit more rare, but eventually could be fixed to a certain extent.

[mee]

nc0gnet0, based on what I have seen around here I think you are on the right train of thought. I have a suspicion that what you are talking about is very close, if not already a done deal. I found a specific breeder that seems to have cracked the code, and inquired about getting some fry, but sadly his response was that he does not sell fry, just breeds for the joy of it. I am going to try to gently persuade the breeder though.. perhaps trading some heckle X fry may sweetin the pot =)

[Rod]

I don't think we are on the same page. I am NOT saying I could fix th trait in three generations. NO way no how. What I was alluding to is the fact that all the big players in the asian breeder market on now working on these heckel crosses. Tony Tan, Wayne Ng, Jefferey Yang, Wantanabe, Forrest, just to name a few. From this HUGE collective of tanks and breeding knowledge, I feel that fixing the trait (by them) is obtainable. I think THEY can reach that goal in the next several years.

I then went on to say or define what I considered at what point that achievement will have been met, which was producing a heckel cross that could pass on the trait in at least 50% of the offspring for at least three generations (at which point I think they would most likely need to be bred back to a heckle).

I think the heckel bar acts simular to the blue halo genetically, albeit a bit more rare, but eventually could be fixed to a certain extent.

Well, i don't think being a named breeder will help in this case, the genes won't care one bit. I will be waiting for the proof, though not holding my breath :D

[eaglesfan3000]

I have a female Tigersnake that I'm thinking about breeding with a Leopard do you know what the offspring would be?

Thanks
Bob

[OC Discus]

This reply is just to join this thread and watch for updates.

[livinginLOCO]

This reply is just to join this thread and watch for updates.

Same here.

[ed nielson]

Hi all, I am fairly new to breeding but loving this thread. I currently have one pair of Stendker fire red's with 3 week old fry on them and a second pair spawning right now. I also have 3-albino golden with striations and 1- with spots that are approximatly 10 months old, 2-platnum blues, 2- yellow diamonds, and a tropical red.I found some very interesting / useful information on this thread and would see and hear more. thanks for all your input Ed

[Naty]

Hi Guys!
I know the topic is old, but maybe i get luck and someone will see it.. hehe

I was told that you can use the Ghost to pair up with any color of Discus and the fry would be exact copies of the parents' colors, always tending to the most colorful, not adding peppering or else. Is that true?

Thanks , Naty :o

[fivestar68]

Hello, I purchased 7 Discus from Kenny and I have had them for 3 months. The Neon Sapphire (12 months old & 5.5 in) and one of the Golden Diamonds (11/12 months old & 5 in) seem to be pairing up. They are displaying cleaning, shimmering and chasing others away. If these to breed what might be the outcome of the babies? Thank you.

[peewee1]

Hello, I purchased 7 Discus from Kenny and I have had them for 3 months. The Neon Sapphire (12 months old & 5.5 in) and one of the Golden Diamonds (11/12 months old & 5 in) seem to be pairing up. They are displaying cleaning, shimmering and chasing others away. If these to breed what might be the outcome of the babies? Thank you.

5 star you and I seem to have purchased from the same batch. Kenny has excellent selections. I'm about 35 miles north of you. Up Seattle way. May stay in touch with you should you get some fry. This thread is most interesting. Carol really did know her subject. The Neon Sapphire is top on my list.

[fivestar68]

5 star you and I seem to have purchased from the same batch. Kenny has excellent selections. I'm about 35 miles north of you. Up Seattle way. May stay in touch with you should you get some fry. This thread is most interesting. Carol really did know her subject. The Neon Sapphire is top on my list.

Hey peewee1, thanks for the reply. That's awesome to have someone fairly close by. I do live in Yelm now and not Auburn. Bought my first home 3 months ago and loving the room to enjoy the incredible fish from Kenny. I received my Discus from the Nov batch! I have a Neon Sapphire and a Golden Diamond displaying all the breeding behaviors besides actually spawning. We just wait and see!!! I would love to stay in touch! Also my name is Jack. Talk to you soon. https://youtu.be/muzL6ayOIZs

[LizStreithorst]

Your Neon Sapphire is a refined version of a Blue Diamond. The Gold Diamond is a very clean fish. I would call it Gold based but due to the black in the fins I figure it is Pigeon Blood based. If so, the cross will produced peppered fry. If not, I don't know what you will get from the cross but they will be solid colored without pepper. The only way to know for sure is to raise a batch of fry from them and see what you get.

[fivestar68]

Thanks for the info mama bear! Really appreciate it. https://youtu.be/R2e7qHEpnaM