Feeding Bloodworms and California Black worms - Just how harmful??

[montydiscus]

Hi,
I am very confused regarding feeding discus - live California Black Worms and Froozen Blood Worms. It appear's most "TOP Discus Breeders" in the hobby today, feed their Discus Live California Blood Worms and/or Froozen Blood worms. Recently in a conversation (with a PHD Marine Biologist & Tenured Professor (Fresh Water Fish Speciality) I am told NEVER- NEVER- EVER FEED these worms to my discus. The professor went on to say both types of worms (Live California Black Worms and even Froozen Blood Worms) are the primary hosts of tapeworms and other harmful worm parasites, which are passed on to our discus. I hope this subject will get the attention it deserves, as I am still confused and concerned. Please provide your experience and opinion on this very important matter.

Much Thanks in advance....for sharing with us all. :)

Monty

[henryD]

Monty,

I have been feeding frozen bloodworms for over 1 year now. I have not had any problems. Of course I only feed the hikari kind. Like anything else I think you have to be selective about the source of live or frozen food. In my opinion Hikari does a good enough job that I feel safe with their products. I have also used black worms from Dan and have never had a tape worm problem.

This particular issue has been done to death. Use the search function on the top and you will find some lengthy post about good experience and bad ones.

Henry

[montydiscus]

Hi Henry,
Thanks for sharing. Yes, I have read some of the other posts, which mainly focus on tape worms. Round worms were never mentioned, as an example of another parasite which (according to this Professor) may be passed on by feeding live worms to our discus. There is more to worry about than just Tape Worms.
Monty

[Carol_Roberts]

I feed live california black worms once a day and have fed them for a couple of years.

[Ardan]

Hi,
I am a firm believer that Blackworms are great for the fish "if the source of the blackworms is a good one"

I have used the ones from www.aquaticfoods.com for almost 2 yrs and have had great results. I rinse them everyday with dechlorinated, same temp (chilled) water and keep them in the fridge.

I have also used Hikari Brand bloodworms with good results.

hth

Hi,
I am very confused regarding feeding discus - live California Black Worms and Froozen Blood Worms. It appear's most "TOP Discus Breeders" in the hobby today, feed their Discus Live California Blood Worms and/or Froozen Blood worms. Recently in a conversation (with a PHD Marine Biologist & Tenured Professor (Fresh Water Fish Speciality) I am told NEVER- NEVER- EVER FEED these worms to my discus. The professor went on to say both types of worms (Live California Black Worms and even Froozen Blood Worms) are the primary hosts of tapeworms and other harmful worm parasites, which are passed on to our discus. I hope this subject will get the attention it deserves, as I am still confused and concerned. Please provide your experience and opinion on this very important matter.

Much Thanks in advance....for sharing with us all. :)

Monty

Hey Monty:

I've been saying this from since I first started the forum in July 2003. I noticed that when I started feeding them Blackworms and Bloodworms, they were susceptible to gillworms and worms alltogether. But you know something, I stuck with the group's dietary needs ... I just play the game of feeding those worms, and once or twice a week they get a laxative to excrete those wormies. Then I drop in some Tea Tree Oil to kill bad bacteria and then all is well. With a ratio of more than 20 fishies in a 20 gallon tank, I don't think I do too bad afterall. I haven't had a dead fish (by err) yet. I got all under control at the moment. **Angie**

[bikhu]

Hi Monty,
When I first started with Discus I had heard the same thing. However my experience is that the fish thrive with these foods. At one point, I believe Cary, paid to have lab analyses of CBW and the reports were very clear that CBW are not typically hosts to parasites. Tubifex on the other hand are an entirely different story. I would say call or write to Cary at Great Lakes or send a pm to Brewmaster 15 and they will lead you to the research results. Also in my experience ... professors profess... the breeders have a lot of years, a lot of emotion, a lot of tears, a lot of sweat and a lot of money invested into their vocation with these animals. Thanks teach but I'm sticking with the experienced guys.
JMO

[Jeff]

Monty,

Go with you gut feeling. No mater what is is you will be right. ;D There are as many for as against either side. When feeding BW I only use hikari. Because I do not breed I don't feel the need to use CBW. I import and only get discus larger than 2" and usually larger than 3". I think CBW are great for fry, but not necessary for older discus. JMO. 8)

[montydiscus]

Thanks All,
It's comforting to read all your replys. I am sure like with all of you, I take pride and go to great lengths, to provide my discus, with the upmost care. After all they are more than Discus, they are part of our family and receive the same care and concern, other family members do. :)
Monty

I just play the game of feeding those worms, and once or twice a week they get a laxative to excrete those wormies. Then I drop in some Tea Tree Oil to kill bad bacteria and then all is well.

Interesting treatment....to say the least ???

Tony

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hello Jeff,
Man I hate to bust My buddies Balls ( You Know I love You)

However I'll do this real fast! Protein's are very very important!
when growing up! Now This includes fish, mammals,reptiles ETC......

For the most part higher amounts of proteins are needed to help the body grow. also most know that all insects are very high in these proteins includeing worms.

Now Jeff this is the second time I heard this come from you!
IMO a 2" discus is not even half the size that it will be when adult. So why would you cut back on proteins that are needed to help the discus grow? Ya, Ya, I know beefheart is
Also high in proteins but nothing compared to live worms.

Like I said Not trying to bust Your balls here but I think proper Testing should be ran on your part to see the diffrence before the public hears your opinion and We all know were opinion's
can get us?

Jeff, You are a very good man with very good looking discus
I know You know that now! I also hope You know many look up to you and listen to what you say. I only ask you go thru
all the hard core opinions and debates and experment for yourself. it may take 5 or 6 times before you see results So with that said I would never settel on just one result but combine many. I also do not listen to hearsay unless there are many claims.

Now I know You just visted sing sing and have made many friends So i will ask you to ask some of them what country
has the biggest discus in the world? am talking 9" adults
and bigger. You willnot see any 5" breeding pairs only monster plate Discus there. Anyways the country is Vietnam
and they only feed live worms.

Also IME the biggest problem with worms are internal bac infections not HEX! or worms your discus will still exspell white feces this does not mean hex. ok people OK!

hth
cary Gld!

[Jeff]

Ok point taken. There is much more work that needs to be done on this before I can say what I said with confidence or at all. One or two times doesn't make a good experiment. I'll keep working on it.

I agree Vietnom has the largest discus feeding worms. Though David Lim did have a monster at the show, but I don't know how big his adults get on average and exactly what he feeds. I have been told just some mix he prepares.

How much protien do you think is in a CBW?

[CARY_GLdiscus]

THATS MY BOY!

I love You more now! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

And with that you just came up with a good Q
just how much more protein is in CBW then beefheart? Well I cannot anwser that with full honesty All I have for prof is animal planet this link http://eatbug.com/ and Vietnam Discus.

Also Jeff I want You to Know I have a open mind and if we new the protein facts We could without any problem add what is missing into our beefheart mix without a dought!

Takecare My friend
Cary Gld!

[Tkuemmet]

I bet the protein content is probably pretty similar, but one thing i am sure of is that in CBW the protein is much better assimilated by the fish. Just like cows which are able to extract nutrients from cellulose that other animals, all animals are adapted to digesting a certain type of protein source. It seems to me that cbw provide more useable protein for the fish than other foods. Carnivore in the fish world rarely means mammalian flesh!


JMO!
Travis-

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Good Point Travis! ;)


Thats What Me and Jeff are looking for! Anybody else like to add to this thread? :)

[fcdiscus]

IME, the only problems arise from dead or bad CBW. Too many people try to keep them to long, and dead worms will cause a internal Bacterial infection and kill small fish, and maybe even larger ones if they eat too many. Try not to keep the worms for more than 2 weeks tops, and keep them cold cold cold- and rinse rinse rinse. JMO, Frank :)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Well said Frank,
I agree on this being the biggest problem! I myself have spoiled worms after weeks of keeping and thought It was best to feed more and faster before I had to pitch the worms in the Yard and take a lose. However I found My lose to Be much greater in doing just That!

hth
Cary Gld!
P.S IMPO Its best to keep them colder then warmer! this will slow the process

[Ardan]

I would like to add to the thread! ;D
I don't think there is anything like live food for a fish! The way it fires up the fish, you can see them get more excited than with any other food. (this goes for most fish I believe)
I think the live foods stimulate the fish.
With other tropicals I have noticed live food is the best way to get them to breed. IME
Discus I am still working on to get all things right ;D ( I think it will not be long now as the fish are mature 8))


I have kept my CBW up to 2 months. I rinse them every day and keep them and the rinse water (without chlorine) in the fridge at about 40 to 42F.
If I don't rinse them everyday I can tell, the water gets very dirty and I wouldn't trust feeding them to the fish (bacteria).

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Ya!
Well said Arden Keep them comeing!!!!!

[Jeff]

Frank and Cary good points. Exactly what I have seen. When the worms start to go bad many rinse well and feed them faster! This just does not work. Through them out. They are already bad.

[mtwinn]

I have a question. With all the talk about Vietnam Discus, does anyone know anybody importing these Discus. There was a place in Westminster, CA that was a importer/wholesaler of Vietnam Discus, but I forgot their name. I don't even know if they are still around. All I can say is when I was touring their place, I saw some of the biggest Discus ever. I didn't even think Discus could get that big.

[fcdiscus]

:o 2 months Ardan! WOW, Frank :o

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Yes mtwinn,

Very Very sweet and Very Very BIG!

[Ardan]

2 months Ardan! WOW, Frank
Yes it is true. I keep them in a rubbermaid container. It has pretty much surface area which I think helps the worms as they need air.

I currently only have seven discus, so the worms last a while. This is going to change soon, more discus ;D

[alex_m]

Hi,

this is just my opinion, blackworms are NOT nesessary for getting good growth in younger discus.

The only reason that i could think feeding worms will be good is low polution, which can be achieved through making your beefheart the right way.

Also i am not sure if Vietnam has the biggest discus, my brother is in Germany and i know a german breeder here,
they have discus that are 9 in also.

Their diet is solely bh and bloodworms.

Also, i would like you to see Jimmy's pics and judge the fish, he said that feeds nothing but bh.

Sorry, i know i am going against majority opinions but these are my personal observations.

Also worms are great, but to say that they are crucial for achieving fast growth i think is not true.

Pics is 11 month old fish on beefheart and hikari bloodworms

thanks

alex

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Like I said,
Opion's are welcomed! But could we please try and do a few tests at home before we preach heresay?

Most of the negative comments are comeing from thoses who never raised discus fry before now how can that be?

I did My homework and it works for Me. IME there is know way in Hell any beefheart made any way could be better on the water then worms.

hth
Cary Gld!

[ronrca]

What about live Red Wrigglers? How would they compare with CBW?

Just curious as CBW are next to impossible to get here because no one sells them locally! :(

[alex_m]

Hahaha

i am doing my homework as we speak.

My fry eat beefheart and bloodworms and grow quite well.

I think that that's all they do-eat and s**t.

Did you know that discus will come half way out of water to beg for beefheart? :) :)

alex

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Did You Kown My discus play tugowar with Blkworms
hee.hee.hee..... They also try to eat the dried up ones on the outside of the glass :o

[RyanH]

I have been feeding blackworms and bloodworms to my Discus for close to two years now and the ONLY time I have ever had a problem is when I buy my blackworms from an lfs. Since I have started giving my business to Dan, I have not had any problems at all.

I also agree that these fish are adapted to assimilating proteins from certain kinds of tissues and thus from specific kinds of food sources. That is, from food sources that are similar to what they have eaten in their natural habitat for thousands of years, like worms, insects, and different types of larvae.

I also feed a beefheart mix because I like the idea of giving them variety. If an individual fish's metabolism is more adept at processing certain kinds of proteins and another individuals metabolism differs even slightly, a variety of foods will increase the chances that both individuals will reach their maximum growth potential. Like many of my outlandish theories, this idea has not, as far as I know, been substantiated by experimentation or observation under controlled conditions, but it makes good sense. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will continue to use CBW, bloodworms, AND beefheart (among other goodies) under the assumption that I am feeding my fish the best possible foods with the least amount of risk.

[Allen Myers]

Okay Cary, here's a little something from an angelfish breeder. I was warned not to feed blackworms to my angelfish (adults and juvies) but I could not believe the growth rate and overall health of the twenty-one breeding pairs I was working with after feeding mainly blackworms for 5 to 6 months. These fish were literally monsters and their spawns were incredibly large (500+ fry was common). The pairs were religiously spawning every 7 to 10 days too. Many of the adults had body sizes around 3" not including the tail!

Here's where my discus adventure begins and ends. I never fed my adult discus blackworms, only beefheart and Tetra bits and frozen bloodworms. The three pairs I worked with never seemed to get the whole spawning and parenting thing down, and I got totally frustrated after several months of maintaining meticulous water quality and parameters to their liking only to find them eating their eggs or fry or laying eggs only on ocassion. Bottom line.......I think the missing link was the worms.

Just my 2 cents!

Allen

[cesar_1304]

WOW... so much good information! Nothing beats experience... Keep it coming!


:o
-Cesar

[Allen Myers]

Cesar,

One last thing regarding feeding my breeders a high protein diet of blackworms; the angelfish fry from these breeders seemed much more vigorous right from the day they hatched. Especially the typically weaker (and smaller) fry like Albinos and Double-Dose Blacks.

Allen

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Thanks Allen,
This is what am looking for. IME most people are buying Diseased Discus and feeding them Live Worms Well You can bet who gets the blame. >:(

Anyways Great Post! I did angels the same Way with live worms and everyone that came buy Could not believe the size of them and their spawns. Same with My Discus I took First,Third and Reserve best in SHOW AT THIS YEARS ACA
There were over 56 discus entries from around the world.
Many were spotted newwer types with great color.
However I just took the basic strains like turks solid blues Etc...
IMO my discus were the biggest there and I believe thats why I won.

Now I only Do discus and Rams But Everytime I dump rams at My LFS they mark the tank SUPER RAMS LOL! And Yes they eat BLKworms To!

Takecare,
Cary Gld!

[OEG]

;D ;DRams!!!!!! Wheres the challenge there Cary? ;D ;D
On the black worms thing- Yea i use them but i hate those little suckers, water changes on fish for 2-3hours and then 15mins on the freaking food, now thats not right. Just clean yourself for god sakes.
Oscar

[CARY_GLdiscus]

My Man Oscar,
What the heck You saying? LOL! ;D

[OEG]

Nothing but love Cary, You dam showoff....Ill take the pair off your hands my friend.
Oscar

[Allen Myers]

Cary,

Sweet looking pair! And huge! Let's see, you raised them on flake food and Tetra Bits right?! LOL

Allen

[Allen Myers]

Cary,

One last thing.....those "Super Rams" look big enough to be used as clean-up fish to take care of any culls.....you know like a pair of Oscar's or something! ;)

Have a good one!

Allen

[CARY_GLdiscus]

LOL Allen ;D ;D ;D ;D


Ok Oscar Thoses are very nice aswell And I now get What Your Saying W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C on Your Discus and Worms ;)