SIck fish???rapid breathing and "pimples"

[g8torjohn]

Please Help.
We have a 65 gallon tank with 8 juvenile discus. Everything was swimming along until this past week. We noticed small pimple-like white bumps on one of our fish. This had occurred once prior and we treated with metrodinazole with satisfactory results. This time not so good. We now notice that two other fish have similar pimples. The original fish's pimples have subsided, but we noticed labored breathing in all of the fish. One morning after we treated with met all the fish (including the tetras in the tank) and snails were at the top of the tank with the appearance of gulping air. We had a 40%-50% wc, and they seemed better. But the breathing still is rapid and the smallest discus still goes to the top (this is over the course of several days, with several partial wc's). We are afraid to stop treating with met (since there still are the pimples -- which we assume is early hth). What can we do? They still eat, we add only ro water (as we live in fla), have live plants, filter with a fluval carbon unit and change our water once a week. ???

[Carol_Roberts]

Stop the metro - hith is not the problem at the moment.

Add extra air NOW - either an airstone or lower the water level an inch so the water cascades in.

Are the fish in PURE RO? IF yes, are you having a pH crash? You need some minerals in the tank at all times. Fish cannot live for any length of time in pure RO. Add some regular water now.

Do you have CO2 running in the tank? If yes, turn it off

[daninthesand]

Carol is right. Whatever those pimples are is not the main problem that needs to be corrected. Something is up with your water....

I wonder about the pimples. Are these on only the head or face area? And are they holes or raised pimples as you say. If they are pimples these might be bacterial in nature. I have used salt (NON IODIZED!!!!!!) successfully to treat "zit" like infections like that. But I'm not sure thats what you have by your description.

In general, salt will help the fish deal with stress and give you some time to figure out what is going on. I am not sure what salt will do in pure RO though. I suspect it will do no harm as long as it is the right kind of salt. Pickling salt that had no iodine is commonly available at the grocery store.

If you have the right salt (remember do not use table salt. It has iodine in it. NOT GOOD TO USE FOR FISH) you could try adding a bit of salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons)


Daniel

[g8torjohn]

Thanks for the prompt reply. The pH is 6.4 (just tested). We have added an airstone to improve the immediate oxygen problems. In general, we add Discus Trace by Seachem to the RO water. Based on our reading other posts and replies, we just raised the temp from 83 to 87 and added 5 Tbsp epsom salt to the 65 gal tank. Also, I read another post-reply to the effect that the met can kill off the bacteria in the tank and thereby deplete oxygen, so we are definitely stopping the met.

Perhaps we should just leave the tank be for now and see whether the higher temp and salt help with the white bumps . . . ? I am concerned that the white bumps will worsen and eventually kill the fish if we don't stop the problem early, although they do act healthy now (other than the labored breathing noted earlier).

Thanks very much for your help -- our fish thank you too!

John

[daninthesand]

Yes, as long as the fish are not dyeing before your eyes I'd leave things alone for tonight. Epsom salt is usually used for intestinal blockages so don't be surprised if your fish poo a lot. I'm not sure if the epsom salt (magnesium sulphate?) will have the same beneficial effect that the regular salt (NaCl) will have. But for now i'd not add anything else to the tank.



Salt as a med
I have used salt in the following concentrations.
2 tblsp/10 gal water for stress reduction.
2 tblsp/10 gal for nitrite in the water. This helps the fish because
the chloride ion (NaCl= salt (sodium chloride) attaches to the gill
membrane where nitrite would enter the blood stream (attaches
to hemoglobin called "brown blood disease"). This works if the
ph is above 7.0.


The above quote is intended to inform you of the possibility that IF some of what you are seeing might be due to your filter not keeping up with nitrites (is the tank well cycled?)the salt my help.This is where i got the information. I suggest you read this relatively short post to get the full details.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=10438;st art=0#lastPost

good luck

Daniel

[DavidH]

John what is Discus Trace, is it for reconstituting RO water.
If you'er using straight RO are you checking TDS after recon. I use RO Vital, does a pretty good job.

Dave

[g8torjohn]

I found discus trace while in Atlanta recently on vacation (even on vacation we end up at fish stores!!) and was recommended to use discus trace by seachem to replace minerals that are not present in the ro water -- we have also used ro right by kent, and our fish seem to do well with either. We live in FL and the water is as hard as it gets (yesterday in the shower I was hit by small chunks of limestone), and we have a planted tank (can't do the bb tank for aesthetic reasons). After our near-death oxygen crisis, we added an airstone, did another big water change to remove some of the hexamit, added salt and raised the temp. The fish improved dramatically and are back to their cantankerous, lovely old selves.

We still are not 100% sure what caused the crisis, perhaps overmedication, lack of bacteria (to produce oxygen) or they just got together and decided to freak us out.

I now run a sump pump to add the ro water directly from my collection facility (an industrial size and grade plastic trash can) to the tank. It saves on the walking back and forth with five gallon containers. I have upped the w/c schedule to twice per week...sometimes thrice.

And of course I have dedicated still additional capital to the discus fish...looking for a 120gallon tank...because if the choice is paying the rent or a beautiful discus tank....

Thanks for the help,
John ;D

[paniza]

John,

Please make sure you are using the right salt. I'm not expert but I believe Epsom is mainly good for non-poopy fish.
I've used epsom before for infections and on MY CASE I lost the fishes with gill desease... the thing is 2 cases(mine and yours) are never the same. :-\n
Now, when I have problem with infection, rapid beathing and rotten fins, the first thing I do is add the famous salt recipe... 2 TABLEspoons of salt every 10 gallons of water. I use sea salt which are the big salt rocks.



Here is some info on salt:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6339

hth

[April]

i would keep doing at least 50 percent wc a day..sounds to me there may be a bioload and that could be why your seeing pimples. one well known discus person used to say if there were unhappy discus is G.D.A.W.C. (go do a water change)
keep the salt up and keep the oxygen up. and yes you need some minerals for keeping your ph stable. they also need them for growth. you can add crushed oyster shells or coral also to buffer. or add half ro and half tap for stability. might have to play around with this.
the pimples may cure if all else gets fixed up.
let us know how it all goes.
pickling salt is good and cheap and easy to come by in your local grocery store

also id not use carbon except to remove meds. if you had carbon with the metro you may have removed it. also... some discus breeders etc have reported that constant carbon in fact creates hith. not for sure.. but seems that way. so maybe remove your carbon. it also can leach back stuff if expired.

the best stuff for reconstituting ro water is kent ro right. i add a teaspoon to each 10 gallons. but you do need to re-ad minerals . or you will get crashes .
metro i believe has sugars which can make your ph crash also.

[g8torjohn]

Thanks, the fish, after much water change and TLC are doing better. The pimples are gone and the breathing is returned to normal. They are happy and cantankerous! I have added an airstone, removed the carbon -- for good, and now add RO right or a comparable Seachem item (i forget the name -- Discusright?) with my water changes.

The water hardness is slowly returning to normal (currently it is in the 450 TDS range) and all other levels are okay.

PS will kosher salt work -- as it contains no iodine -- as I couldn't locate Pickling slat at the store.

Again thanks for all the help...without it I am not sure if the results would have been nearly as positive!

John

[yogi]

John koser salt can work but it has that yellow something stuff in it. You live here in Florida. Just go to Publix and they sell Morton canning and pickling salt in a green and white box. It should be right next to the round Morton table salt containers.

[ASCOTT]

ok, I'm kinda new to this so maybe I've read this wrong but now I'm really confused you say your levels are at about 450 is'nt that too high for discus I was of the impression that discus needed to have very low kh & gh levels I have been using ro water and the kh (in the tank) is 17.9 ppm or less and the gh (in the tank) is 71.6 to 89.5 so is this to low or what? aaaarrrrgggg!!!

[ASCOTT]

Also speaking of salt I was using the instant ocean brand until I found that it raises the hardnes levels (kh/gh) so my question is this is that a good way of reconstituting ro water or sould I just bypass the de-ionization cartridge of the ro system instead?

[Carol_Roberts]

TDS is different than GH and KH. Here is a simplified explanation.

TDS measures total disolved solids including salts (like sodium chloride) that do not raise hardness at all.

GH measures hardness - disolved minerals like magnesium and calcium.

KH measures buffer