Nitrates... what do you think about them?

[brewmaster15]

Just curious... what does everyone think about nitrates...

Most know that ammonia goes to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates in the biofilter (simplified pathway)... Then the nitrates are removed by one or more of a few methods...

1) water changes
2) plants.. water or vines suspended in the tank
3) commercial filter media
4) anaerobic bacteria (break down nitrates to nitrogen gas)

Nitrates though less toxic than ammonia and nitrites are important and have been indicated as a cause of skittish behavior, weakening of the immune system, a form hole in the head.... and probably other problems as well.

Because on eof the quickest ways to remove them and keep them low is to do frequent water changes many of probably don't worry about them or even measure them..

If you do measure them... what kind of readings do you get and can you please describe your tanknumbers fish, and feedings? I guess I am basically looking for what everyones feelings on nitrates are.?

-al

[M0oN]

Well I've got a 100 gallon with 8 discus currently in it (soon to be 11 discus and a motoro sting ray)...

When the biobed is running normally I don't generally test for nitrates more then once or twice a month. I like to try and keep them under 20 ppm which they generally are, although I do most of my testing right after water changes.

I think that while they aren't as toxic as nitrite and ammonia, anything that's bad for your fish should be avoided, even if the general theory is that they aren't very harmful...I like to try and give my fish the absolute best that I can.

Jason

[lkleung007]

Hi Al,

Interesting topic!!

The general rule is that the lower the nitrates the better. I do have plant roots submerged in the tank to help lower nitrate levels. Before a WC, the nitrate level is usually around 20 ppm. Although this level may be a bit high according to what I have read the Discus seem to do fine. I try not to overfeed and they get 40% WC daily.

I would be interested to see what other board members do to lower nitrates levels in their tanks??

Regards, Lester

[ronrca]

;)
I measure nitrates from once a week to once a month depending on the discus behaviour. My nitrates are under 5ppm all of the time unless I dont do a wc for a couple of days.

At the moment, 10 discus from 4" to 6" in 100G. Daily wc of around 40%, feedings from 2-4x/day. Tanks are BB, no plants.

[daninthesand]

Brew.

I change water, thats about it. So never measured nitrates unless cycling a new tank.

I did have an 80 gallon tank with 18 adult wild caught discus (5 inches and up) that was half full (ie 40 gallons of water) from evaporation after 4 weeks of no water changes and no food. Lights on 12 hours per day (no algae). YES, the fish were Not fed at all for 4 weeks. I never did measure the nitrates, but the tank had a couple of sprigs of philodendron in it and they grew profusely during that period. What I did notice was all the fish developed HITH. Was it starvation (nutrition)? Was it no dissolved calcium in water column (due to depletion)? Was it nitrate or ammonia build up? I don't know. But within about two weeks (maybe three) the HITH dissapeared with regular feeding/water changes.

btw. there were 4 very well cycled hydropsponge (5's) in there too.

I wish I had measured nitrates. Ph went down to around 4.8 (normally around 7.8) and the conductivity was up to 480 (normally 220).

maybe you can find this usefull....?

Daniel

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Ive noticed that nitrates affect the growth of a growing fry, especially in a heavely stocked tank. Then you get a larger than normal percentage of runts in a batch of babie if w/c's are not kept up.


-Ryan

[Ardan]

Good topic AL!

I measure mine occassionally. I have bb, 7 adult discus in a 50 gal. I feed at least 3 times/day and up to 7 times per day on weekends. I change 50% water each day.

Nitrates measure less than 5.

I think its important to keep them low.

[jn4u]

I use the simple way of changeing water. Nitrates filter well. U ned to change out more than just the nitrates in the water.

[wildthing]

IMO nitrates = G.I.F...change water change water....
:)

[mikeos]

Nitrate? whats one of them dad?

I guess I am fortunate, my water supply has no measurable nitrate, bb tanks with normal/average stock levels can go for a week wo water change & only be <5mg/l.

Planted tanks ... I have to ADD nitrate to keep the plants healthy ;D ;D.

As far as Discus go I agree that juvinile & sub adults are affected adversely, Adults seem more tolerant of levels to <30mg/l ( so I hear), have heard of well known breeders/suppliers having 50mg with no problems.

I am coming to the conclusion that it is the other water params that are more important, ie ph gh kh no2 nh3. Daniels post raises some interesting questions, shame we dont know the nitrate level, with philo's it was probably quite low.

[vickie s]

I test regularly at first, or when I make changes (add or remove alot of fish or plants) to get a feel for the tank's range. My extremes are a bb discus growout tank and a heavily planted tank.

The 25g bb growout tank has 9 discus, ranging from 3+ to 5+ inches (no tail). It gets 2 50-90% water changes each day and that keeps the nitrates below 5 (before a water change). I feed the fish 5-7 meals each day (flake, cbw, fbw, mysis and bs). I test this tank a couple times each week because of the high fish load and heavy feeding.

The other end of the spectrum is my heavily planted 125g that I add nitrates to. I add nitrate, phosphate, trace minerals and CO2 to this tank. I rarely test this tank and use the plants to tell me how they are doing. The discus will eventially go into this tank (probably as 2 groups to get the smaller ones caught up in size to the bigger ones) and I will have to test alot when adding grown fish to know that the nitrates are good for the fish and plants.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2:Geez Al, you're at it again!! Do you ever sleep?? I think you guys that only need 4 hrs a nite are very lucky. You're always thinking up things to do or questions to fire at us to keep us from developing Alzheimers. Or maybe its the baby keeping you up, hahahahahahahaha!! :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:
Anyway, nitrates, hmmmmmm...... gave up testing awhile back cuz its always less than 5.0. So I tested the 125 & 90g with swords & fish; 125g,11 discus & many rams & cories, 3 large swords & philos; the 90 has 9 discus, rams & cories, 1 lg sword, no philos. These tanks are changed twice/wk, about 25-30%. Both are at 5.0 NO3 & it's time for a w/c. The other tanks, 65g,55g, & 37g are juvies & changed daily & have always been below 5. Some tanks have pothos in them, some don't; doesn't seem to matter, so that's why I don't test anymore. That's my story & I'm sticking to it, so have at it, lol, Dottie ;D ;D ;D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dottie,
:)

another question for you all that do measure or did.... Whose kit do you use? Kinda funny but I picked up one of those red sea nitrate 2 kits (new and improved!) and and it has 2 different sets of reagents.... ones powder + liquid...the other is all liquid.. . The kit says if you read over 10 ppm with one test to try the other.... I guess theres something that can interfer in your water... though they don't tell you what it is.

Okay so I have this kit and I use it... I Go with the quicker of the 2 assays... and I get a 50PPM!!! Which I figure is crazy in this tank with its daily water changes.... Then I try the other and its less than 5. Course This one is probably right... but what I need now is another Darn test to confirm it.

..basically what it taught me was the Nitrate test may not be the most accurate test out there...so I'd be interested in exactly what kits everyone uses.

-al

[gary1218]

I've always liked the Aquarium Pharm. liquid drop tests the best.

GARY

[Jeff]

I agree with David.

[Ardan]

Hi Al,
I have been using Seatest. But I recently purchased an aquarium pharmaceuticals kit, haven't used it yet.

[April]

well all i know is after reading this thread..it makes you wanna jump up and do a wc. i do 80 percent at a time.. and i dont measure my nitrates. but if i havent done them for a few days for some odd reason.. i do see skittishness starting. so.. get going and do a huge one.
i also have seen wilds come in to our lfs and in very cramped quarters... and they do develop hith very quickly at the lfs. course it coudl be diet.. but id say maybe cramped quarters and nitrates could have somethin to do with it.

Hi, Al:

I admit... I never ever thought of doing a water test for ammonia. Only one time while in the LFS did I overhear a conversation regarding a customer and his tank and testing for nitrates/nitrites kit, etc. That time I thought to myself he must have had an elaborate saltwater tank for him to ask the clerk in the LFS.

Later in time, as I joined Simply, I learned of this kit. I ran to the LFS (Petlands) and they tested my water and said it was high in nitrates. I question the level and they said no discus can live in such circumstances. That was the last time I ever tested my water.

So truthfully, I do agree much with what "Wildthing" David stated: "water change, water change, water change". That's pretty much the best cure next to Peat Tannins and Tea Tree Oil.

**Angie**

Tank stats:

BB - 20g - community tank - temps 84-88 - cellpore log - two airstones - biofilter - Date of last discus death: 8/2003 NYC blackout - tank still growing along with fish

[Nightowl]

Don't test for nitrates. ....I like the Aq. Pharm kit though...... don't even hardly test for PH anymore, but I'm not advising that approach to anyone. I'm just used to my water and my routines. Very good quality, stable and useable water straight from the tap here on Long Island...that's why so many people I know are breeding discus!
As far as fry not growing well w/out water changes, is it the nitrates or lack of trace elements?
One thing I do believe (just a theory...based on observations over the years) is that the combination of high nitrates, low PH, and water that's too warm(or any two of the three) is very harmful to fish, discus in particular. J.T.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: Aquarium Pharm, liquid drops reliable

Did you sleep last nite Al or sit at :computer: all nite?? :funny: :funny: Dottie ;D ;D

[brewmaster15]

Dottie,

I wish I could sleep more ..probably healthier if I did. Fact is I Can't. :-\ I have tried going to bed earlier... then I just get up earlier. Tried going to bed latter.. and instead of sleeping latter... That old Bio clock still gets me up in the same 3-4 hours....Drives my fish buggers. :)

Interesting fact... In maynard's book theres a bunch of water chemistries listed for various discus habitat... Nitrates always measure Less than 1 ppm ....which is what you would expect. I was just curious how close to that everyones tanks were. Have no idea at what point its a problem.. Our biofilters deal well with the Ammonia and Nitrite... but not the Nitrate unless they are designed to.

Another interesting point.. If you are relying on a biofilter to break down waste from ammonia..to nitrite to Nitrate... Then The end product ..the Nitrate... will be proportionate to some outcome based on these factors...

the amount of food you feed, numbers of feedings you do, types of food you use, numbers of fish per tank area/gallons, age of the fish, tank temperature, and tank maintenance, tanks pH.etc

whats that mean? Its a real complicated picture!!!
:) that really fascinates the heck out of me....and makes me wonder if its better to do 50%-75% water changes once a day. ... and let those nitrates accumulate all day.. or do 25%-35% morning and night...removing the water and any feces ( a nitrate contributor).

I can see the benefit of a drip system now.

Any how... just thinking and writing out loud!

-al

[lesley]

HI Al,

I use Tetra kit for nitrates. My planted tank would be normally running at 5.
If it gets to 20 I have a snakeskin who "sulks" a bit. Mine don't seem to mind 10.

JT, those observations are interesting (what exactly are you defining as a high temperature?), has anyone else had this?

Lesley

[Nightowl]

Hi Lesley, my definition of high temp is anything over 30C, but if you needed an exact number I would say 88 F is where I've seen fish wig out, with the high nitrates and/or too low a ph(below 6.0)

staying cool? :vanish: J.T.