add water directly into tank?

[delmore]

My pH out of the tap is 7.2. Once the CO2 gasses out which takes a day or so it is 7.4. In 55gallon, can I add water directly to the tank using a python (after adding dechlorinator and adjusting the temperature)? The tank will be bb with 5 or 6 2.5" to 3" discus.

I won't be able to use aged/heated water due to lack of space.

[DarkDiscus]

Hmm. If you are going with a 55 gallon, you could get one with one of those metal stands that has a bottom shelf, then you could put a 30 gallon on the bottom shelf and use it for WC.

I have as little space as anyone and have found the water storage can be done with limited space.

I don't suggest mixing tap water directly into the tank, tossing in any dechlorinators, etc. as I feel it will stress the fish.

Maybe someone else has other experience.

John

[Kevin63]

I just got started and went through the same problem ... trust me, get at 29 gal and find a spot for it, anywhere ... saves time and effort and your fish won't even notice the water change ... well no, they do notice, just like my cats ... 5 minutes after cleaning up the poop, BOOM ... I think they just like clean bathrooms!

[ronrca]

I also agree with John and Kevin! I still remember one incident where someone's discus were always skittish and only at wc time. Well, it turns out that they were also adding water directly from tap to the tank and treating the chlorine/chloramines in the tank. What happens is that when the tap water is added, discus will still be exposed to the chlorine/chloramines until the declor flows thru out the whole to treat it. Why take the chance? I would go with John's suggestion. ;)

[outlawpc]

You may want to check out some of RandleB's posts on adding water directly from the facet to the tank. I like to balance the hot and cold to about 84 degrees F. For small water changes it doesn't even matter (not just my opinion).

I use Prime (Randle uses the cheap stuff :-) and just hose in the water. Fish love it!

Jack Watley in one of his books even goes so far as say a little chlorine is good for the fish (don't know if I would go that far).

My LFS turns blue at the thought of it. Lot of thoughts out there based on other people's opinions. Before you know it. . . we wind-up believing it.

Believe it or Not!

[justathome]

Water changes around 30% will not harm the tank or the bio-filter as a rule. the chlorine content is so small it wont touch the bacteria in the filter, although it will slow down it reproduction, it will destroy free flowing bacteria good and bad in the water. So a little now and then will not hurt, friend and fo as such.
I would only ad water straight from the tap if the PH was stable out of the tap, this is more important than anything else.
If you have chloramines tho, the dechlore/ conversion of the chloramines is v.important as it does not brake down as easily as chlorine.

[ronrca]

Yes, true if you only do small wc's but in most cases where you are raising juvs at 2.5-3" discus, you should be doing 50%+ wc's daily as a rule!


will destroy free flowing bacteria good and bad in the water. Hmmm! Scary thought as bacteria is bacteria, doesnt matter if its floating around or colonized. I think it could have an effect on the bio anyways.

[justathome]

It does have a small effect on the colonies your right, but just stops reproduction of the bacteria as it's different from what is flowing in the water. Generally filters do not react straight away to AMM/ Nitrites, there is a certain element of delay, so this would have very little difference to the effectivness of the colony. The small amount of chlorine that is in there will gas off anyway.

Here's another small extract..
"Chlorine is actualy a weak bleach solution (same chemical sodium hypochlorite once it leaves tap and reacts with air and forms chlorine) with water changes under 40% there isnt enough chlorine to act as a antibioctic (true sense of term anti=against Biotic=life) instead it act as a bacteriostatic (protease growth inhibiter in bacteria) wich basicaly means slows down/stops (depending on level) the bianary fission rate of cellular division in the bacterium.
however filter bacteria populations tend to be high and stable once established and the chlorine has a neglable affect on them other than slow down division rate for a day or so, as filtration has a lag affect on waste this therefore dosnt make a difference.
However bacteria in water colum are more supceptable to protease inhibition as they are free forming not colonising hence sometimes chlorine is friend as well as foe!
infact too many panic too much about chlorine! they are far far worse things added in the water."

And some small amount of info on Chloramines....
"Chloramine is a different animal its molecualy far more stable wich is why water companys are switching over because they can use a lower level. chloramine is ok if u are lasy and do 10% once in a blue moon! the real problem comes when u change as you should because you get a gradual build up over time as the molecule bond is alot harder to break requiring a higther electron transfer path.
Where it gets real tricky tho is aquariums are extremly complex biosystems with many different biological and chemo biological pathways involed. so no two tanks are ever the same. They is currently research going on involving a bacterium believed to be able to break chloramine bonds, (this reaserch isnt being done for aquatic benifit but by water companys who want to use it for clean ups and also want to erradicate it in pipes!).
my own preferance is to actualy split the chlorine molecule useing sodium thiosulphate (a dechlorinator) wich produces amonia!! the reason being is two fold
1. when i seed a new filter i do it the fishless way and i over cook the filter (give it a higther intial load than it will actualy run under so before i fuly stock to keep the filter fed i use dechlorinator to produce ammonia and time the filters reaction (this tells me how effective i have built the filter bed so i can fine tune).
2. dechlorinatoes that remove chloramine drop Disolved Oxygen levels a fair bit, i prefer to produce amonia (is very small even at 45% water change) and let the filter take care of it, this way the filter is used to dealing with small amonia spikes "

Although I have never looked into see if some water boards use more chlorine than the next, and how that can change from country 2 country??
Regular testing and some experimentaion I suppose is needed if they do differ greatly!?

It does have a small effect on the colonies your right, but just stops reproduction of the bacteria as it's different from what is flowing in the water. Generally filters do not react straight away to AMM/ Nitrites, there is a certain element of delay, so this would have very little difference to the effectivness of the colony. The small amount of chlorine that is in there will gas off anyway.

Here's another small extract..
"Chlorine is actualy a weak bleach solution (same chemical sodium hypochlorite once it leaves tap and reacts with air and forms chlorine) with water changes under 40% there isnt enough chlorine to act as a antibioctic (true sense of term anti=against Biotic=life) instead it act as a bacteriostatic (protease growth inhibiter in bacteria) wich basicaly means slows down/stops (depending on level) the bianary fission rate of cellular division in the bacterium.
however filter bacteria populations tend to be high and stable once established and the chlorine has a neglable affect on them other than slow down division rate for a day or so, as filtration has a lag affect on waste this therefore dosnt make a difference.
However bacteria in water colum are more supceptable to protease inhibition as they are free forming not colonising hence sometimes chlorine is friend as well as foe!
infact too many panic too much about chlorine! they are far far worse things added in the water."

And some small amount of info on Chloramines....
"Chloramine is a different animal its molecualy far more stable wich is why water companys are switching over because they can use a lower level. chloramine is ok if u are lasy and do 10% once in a blue moon! the real problem comes when u change as you should because you get a gradual build up over time as the molecule bond is alot harder to break requiring a higther electron transfer path.
Where it gets real tricky tho is aquariums are extremly complex biosystems with many different biological and chemo biological pathways involed. so no two tanks are ever the same. They is currently research going on involving a bacterium believed to be able to break chloramine bonds, (this reaserch isnt being done for aquatic benifit but by water companys who want to use it for clean ups and also want to erradicate it in pipes!).
my own preferance is to actualy split the chlorine molecule useing sodium thiosulphate (a dechlorinator) wich produces amonia!! the reason being is two fold
1. when i seed a new filter i do it the fishless way and i over cook the filter (give it a higther intial load than it will actualy run under so before i fuly stock to keep the filter fed i use dechlorinator to produce ammonia and time the filters reaction (this tells me how effective i have built the filter bed so i can fine tune).
2. dechlorinatoes that remove chloramine drop Disolved Oxygen levels a fair bit, i prefer to produce amonia (is very small even at 45% water change) and let the filter take care of it, this way the filter is used to dealing with small amonia spikes "

Although I have never looked into see if some water boards use more chlorine than the next, and how that can change from country 2 country??
Regular testing and some experimentaion I suppose is needed if they do differ greatly!?


Good morning, all:

Good summation. Justathome.

In fact, I don't worry too much about the amount of chloride in my tapwater. Especially since my tank is small anyhow. But if I had a larger sized tank like some of you folks have, then I would move the fish to a small stationary tank and clear out the larger sized tank (so I can add directly the tapwater and have it sit a bit with the airpumps running at high speed).

Chloride dissolves in air in no time at all. The bacteria on my cellpore remains in tack for the fish. As well as those sponges in the filter.

I am capable of keeping my fish healthy in a small tank at the moment (more than 20 fish!). Breeding is not a problem for me either, although my clown loaches feed upon those eggs. : (

I notice a lot of folks here have a similar maintenance program and others don't. In the long run, it all depends upon your acknowledgment on your water and the substrates you use in your tank.

**Angie**

[ronrca]

Thanks for the info! I am aware of the properties and effects of chlorine and chloramines however how many people know how much chlorine/chloramines in actually in their water and how many do test for it? Imo, thats the scary part and why I can not recommend someone to do up to 40% wc's directly from tap.

A couple more thoughts!

however filter bacteria populations tend to be high and stable once established and the chlorine has a neglable affect on them other than slow down division rate for a day or so, as filtration has a lag affect on waste this therefore dosnt make a difference.
Ammonia is being produced all the time by fish respiration, decay of feces, food, etc. Therefore, if the bio were to slow down for a day or so, you may get an ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike. This spike will depend on stocking density, amount of food fed, volume, etc. It may be a small spike but nevertheless an increase in ammonia levels. Normally what you do in this case is another wc if your fish are showing symptons.

Again, I would like to point out that in this particular case, we have a 55G with 5 2.5-3" juv discus which is intended for grow out. Growout tanks get fed lots of food (4-6x/day) plus frozen foods like beefheart. Grow out tanks also require massive wc's typically 50% to 90% to keep nitrates low and feces/leftover food cleaned up. In an adult tank where wc's are only being done once a day around 25-40% and being fed 2x/day, you may be fine adding water directly from your tap. However, in this case, I would not recommend it! Why risk it!

[outlawpc]

. . . hard to break old habits (beliefs).

[Martinphillip03]

There are certain techniques some people can do, some can't. You mentioned small water changes. Is that 10%, 20% 50%. I think its agreed you can't do a 95% water change directly into the tank. But I am sure somewhere someone does. But the amount of chlorine and chloramanes varies depending on the water supply. So we may do exactly the same thing but with different results. Myself I wouldn't do it. And I could not reccomend someone else to do it because I can't control what the other person does. But all that matters is it works for you.

Marty


. . . hard to break old habits (beliefs).

[RandalB]

Chlorine makes no difference. Large pH shifts, Chloramine are a different story. In my water (2-6 PPM of chlorine which shifts seasonally) The fish aren't bothered by the chlorine at all when I do a water change of 75% or more direct from the tap. I've been doing it for over 2 years now with no problems. Match the temp (Love that Tankless water heater!), Squirt in some Sodium Thiosulfate (cheapest I can find) solution and fill back up. My water sits at pH 7.8 and doesn't shift so that's no problem either. I don't think the fish would be effected by a .2 shift over the time it takes to off gas.

So to answer Delmore, If I was in your situation, I'd go right from the tap with the python. The Python also helps get rid of some chlorine with the turbulance of the water in the gravel tube (ever notice the smell?).

JMHOBOE..

RandalB

[outlawpc]

. . . when refilling have the hose about 5 to 6 inches (more if you can) above the surface of the water. It is my understanding that this will mix air/oxygen in with the new water, which will help dissipate the Chlorine/Chlorimines.

I have also found on the "Python" fitting at the faucet to leave the bottom part very slightly loose. This will then mix air with the water as it enters the hose.

Note: Using the Python faucet fitting is preferable to directly hooking-up a hose to the faucet for a number of reasons (i.e., you can balance out the temperature of the water, as well as allowing oxygen into the hose).

My Python faucet fitting is connected to an RV drinking-water-safe hose with an on/off end fitting. This allows me the flexibility to control water entering the hose, as well as exiting it.

[ronrca]

As far as I know, chlorine takes around a day to dissapate and chloramines around a week. Given that, a couple of minutes filling a tank will not significantly if hardly at all dissapate the chlorine. Its the same as C02. My water takes around 6-8hours before the C02 is dissapated and it really doesnt matter what I do, it just takes that long.

I have my local water report and Im looking for chlorine/chloramines but can not find it. I find chloride though. Anyone know under what form they may list it. I may have to get a chlorine/chloramine test kit somehow. ;)

As far as I know, chlorine takes around a day to dissapate and chloramines around a week. Given that, a couple of minutes filling a tank will not significantly if hardly at all dissapate the chlorine. Its the same as C02. My water takes around 6-8hours before the C02 is dissapated and it really doesnt matter what I do, it just takes that long.

I have my local water report and Im looking for chlorine/chloramines but can not find it. I find chloride though. Anyone know under what form they may list it. I may have to get a chlorine/chloramine test kit somehow. ;)


Hi, Ronca:

I had my periodical (element) chart with all the listings and it was in an old text book of mines from the late 70's. I recalled in science that CL (Chloride which comes from salt) breaks down into Chlorine. I can't remember where I placed that book but it always stuck to my mind. Perhaps someone on board can further clarify.

No harm in a little chloride or chlorine for that matter, in my experiences. Still my adults and (wilds, fryguys, juvies) all are doing well under the circumstances. *Angie*

[M0oN]

Just invest in a 32 gallon rubbermaid trash can with a good lid, air stones and an air pump...

Aerate the water overnight and it'll be chlorine free, takes my water between 8-10 hours to eliminate all chlorine with an air pump rated for 100 gallon tanks and two limewood airstones...

I pump the water into the tank with a pond fountain pump I got from Home Depot...

The extra money invested into the setup saves me a lot of time and A LOT of effort.

[Carol_Roberts]

I just use the pump itself to aerate the water. See how the end o f the hose is draped over the top? See how the water looks like it is almost boiling? My water is ready in three hours.

[peter_griffin]

In my area we must have really good water I personally know two people who raise and breed in straight unaged tapwater. I add straight from the tap and my fish show no signs of stress at all they swim around and even during the change unphased and will eat food within seconds after the change( I do it all the time). My ph 8.0 softwater (I forget the readings its been so long ago since I checked) Neither Ph or hardness change after aging and if there is any chloring or chloramine the fish don't seem to mind.

In my area we must have really good water I personally know two people who raise and breed in straight unaged tapwater. I add straight from the tap and my fish show no signs of stress at all they swim around and even during the change unphased and will eat food within seconds after the change( I do it all the time). My ph 8.0 softwater (I forget the readings its been so long ago since I checked) Neither Ph or hardness change after aging and if there is any chloring or chloramine the fish don't seem to mind.


Hi, Tom:

I'm certainly one of them! Lucky for me. :D

Hi, Carol_Roberts:

Nice photoshoot of your aged-waters! ;D I also recognized some photos in the new website of Simply and immediately pointed out your tanks. Very nice. Nothing like sparkling soft and acidic discus water for our discus.

Have a good discus day all!

**Angie**

[ronrca]

>:( >:( >:( >:( :(
Man am I jealous! ;) My water can not be used straight unless I want to kill my discus. First, ph due to C02 is at 7.0 and rises to 8.2. This takes around 6-8hours (Ive tried sooner but ph does not hit 8.2 until 6 hours or so). Second, I have chloramines. :(


No harm in a little chloride or chlorine for that matter, in my experiences.
I agree but my concern is how much is 'a little' and how much will stress/harm discus?

[delmore]

does anyone have tips for regulating the water temp when filling the tank with a python?

Colder is better than warmer than the tank temp, I assume. I have filled a bucket to get the right temp, them filled the tank directly with the python.

[RyanH]

Carol:

Where in the world do you bathe?! ??? ;D

[Carol_Roberts]

There is a shower in that bathroom too (and another whole bathroom besides) ;)

[peter_griffin]

Just a side note I moved all my fish to my new house last night (same water system). I brought them to the new house and filled the tank while they were in the bucket. Then I put in their old filters and heaters and dropped them. In about 10 minutes they made themselves at home and were ready to eat. ;D

Carol:

Where in the world do you bathe?! ??? ;D


;D ;D ;D

In a woman's world, we can do whatever we like with our spare bathrooms. ;D

**Angie**

does anyone have tips for regulating the water temp when filling the tank with a python?

Colder is better than warmer than the tank temp, I assume. I have filled a bucket to get the right temp, them filled the tank directly with the python.



Noooooo..... don't dare use cold water to fill the tank!
This is where Carol's tank project in the photo above comes in actually practical. I gather Carol keeps the bathroom warm and may even can run a heater or two in those vases. It's a great idea.

Discus bathes in temps of 85 and better (not over 92). I have my tank at 88 and they love it (of course with extra aeration pump running). BTW, I have to do W/C in a little while. Fresh from the faucet in a bucket to the tank. Ciao! : ) **Angie**

[delmore]

does anyone have tips for regulating the water temp when filling the tank with a python?
Colder is better than warmer than the tank temp, I assume. I have filled a bucket to get the right temp, them filled the tank directly with the python.

Noooooo..... don't dare use cold water to fill the tank!
Discus bathes in temps of 85 and better (not over 92). I have my tank at 88 and they love it (of course with extra aeration pump running). BTW, I have to do W/C in a little while. Fresh from the faucet in a bucket to the tank. Ciao! : ) **Angie**

Relax Frygirl. I said "colder" as below the temp of the tank. For example, if I am doing a 30% WC and the tank was 84 degrees, it is better to add 80 degree water than to 88 degree water.
I wasn't suggesting the addition of ice cold water to a discus tank.

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, I have heaters in all my water storage barrels

does anyone have tips for regulating the water temp when filling the tank with a python?

Colder is better than warmer than the tank temp, I assume. I have filled a bucket to get the right temp, them filled the tank directly with the python.




Noooooo..... don't dare use cold water to fill the tank!
This is where Carol's tank project in the photo above comes in actually practical. I gather Carol keeps the bathroom warm and may even can run a heater or two in those vases. It's a great idea.

Discus bathes in temps of 85 and better (not over 92). I have my tank at 88 and they love it (of course with extra aeration pump running). BTW, I have to do W/C in a little while. Fresh from the faucet in a bucket to the tank. Ciao! : ) **Angie**

Delmore, overlooked your run-on sentence. Nonetheless, making the newly installed water should be the same or better when doing water changes for the discus. Maintaining the same temps or better.