Genetics and Naming Standards of the BLUE DIAMOND

[JeffreyRichard]

If at first you don't succeed ...

Let's try this exercise one strain at a time ...

Please add your observations/understanding/knowledge ...

BLUE DIAMOND

What names are commonly used to catagorize/market Blue Diamonds? Are there other "strains" which are/appear to be the same as the BLUE DIAMOND? Is this a Pure Stain? What is the genetic (phenotype) outcome of a BD x BD spawn?

Please post early and often!

I will summerize after the posting seems to cool in this topic ... I'm hoping we can capture the concensus in a reference document somewhere on this site (Al or Ryan?)

Jeff

[heavyp83]

Good idea Jeff! I'll contribute my little bit of knowledge.

Blue Diamond is a pure strain, meaning it will produce more blue diamonds when spawned.

If I am correct, blue diamond x blue diamond will produce 100% blue diamond.

I also remember hearing that the ocean green strain is just a throwback from blue diamonds, I tihnk the number was 20% from a blue diamond spawn will be ocean green.

Correct me if i'm wrong, lets all learn together!

[fishfarm]

There are many strains of blue diamond like fish. Dark solid blue is what most consider the true blue diamond, Ocean green are the same fish with a little more green cast to them, Wayne Ng has Angel diamonds which are a lighter blue. I've seen some strains in Asia that are very pale blue. A true blue diamond has absolutley no striations in the face and fins. They are a result of Hong Kong breeders crossing ghost discus with the Giant almost solid blue fish produced in Hong Kong in the late 70's, early 80's. The ghost gene removes all stress bars and striation. Thru back crossing syblings, the strains were fixed. They do breed true. Ken

[Rod]

From my experience breeding BD....bd bred with bd makes all bd's. Bd X's in the F1 produce zero bd, then some bd's will be found again in the f2 generation. Bd is controlled by a ressesive gene.

Rod

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Ken,
when you say Giant almost solid blue...are you refering to large Cobalt Discus?

a BD had it's origins as a cobaltXghost?


BTW Jeff, this is an excellent way to tackle this!

[discus_nw]

That's my understanding on the origins of the BD - Ghost x Cobalt .

While the Ocean Green was developed from the BD, I don't think that a BD x BD will produce a 20% OG spawn. Most likely, an OG x OG will produce at least that % of BD's.

Good idea for a thread topic. ;)

[Mr. Limpet]

I was hoping that this thread was going to get some more interest.
I have some young Blue Diamonds that came from a pair of Blue Diamonds that produce Blue Diamonds and Striated Blues and Cobalts. I was told that if I bred these guys I would likely get the same result. So, from that it sounds like not all Blue Diamonds Breed true. I guess I will have to wait and see. Paul.

[Jason]

GOOD TOPIC!

a customer asked me the other night what I thought are the traits that seperate a high quality BD and a run of the mill BD.

I'm not a BD fan by any means but I had to say.

1 red eye
2 light base colour overlayed with dark blue giving a "bright shinning" appearance.
3 small uniform scale rows that give the fish a silky look

[crimson cross]

BDs are sold under the names of Blue cover, Angel Blue diamonds, Blue bats and ocean greens(which are a color variant of the bds).
Depending on who you buy from, some strains will not breed true while others will give you an 80% fixation rate or better.

Red eyes, good metallic sheen and a smooth blue/green color are what you should be looking for. The color also should not look washed out or faded. The gill plates should be full blue. Of course roundness and good size also counts, although some do prefer high bodies and high fins,.....hth.

[JeffreyRichard]

Hey RYAN and/or Al ...

How can we catalog the responses so we can create a reference document/page on the site?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

A true BD had amber eyes. A BD with red eyes has been crossed with a golden to achieve the red eyes. It is easy to spot a BD that has been crossed with a golden because they have red eyes and are generally lighter in color.

-Ryan

[discus_nw]

Good response, Ryan. The Asians did cross carrot eyed BD's with what they call an albino (not a true albino, but a very light golden ghost type discus) to develope the red eye.

[Discusgeo]

This is the pair of Blue Diamonds that were imported from Asia and I got them from Ray Kosaka at Discus Hawaii. This is what I call my finest Blue Diamonds to date, no ones has been able matched them. The babies from this pair are very beautiful and are toally blue and contain no striations on any other marking on the body. The only one on the forum that has any of these babies is Oscar at Desert Diamond Discus. Maybe he can show a photo before I do. I have about 20 young one's left that I kept for my self and are about 5 inches now. I will post a photo of them this weekend on this thread. I have done nothing to this photo to enhance it what so ever, you see them as they are in the tank. It was taken with my Cannon Powershot A70
George
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/7658/JGUANKTDLILFIPBE[CDM-BD2002_1.jpg

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Nice BD George.

So how do Brilliant Blues, Blue Turqs and Cobalts relate to one another? (Are we done with Blue Diamonds and ready to move onto other Blues? Not trying to hi-jack the thread Jeff, just suggesting the next series of Blues to discuss.)

BDs are sold under the names of Blue cover

While this might be true.....a Blue cover isnt a Blue Diamond. A Blue Cover has slight striations on the dorsal and anal fins.("similar" to a high quality solid Cobalt)
I believe It was the predecessor to the Blue Diamond.

Tony

[crimson cross]

Tony,sorry, I believe you are mistaken. A blue cover is actually an improved version of Sunny's bd....Maybe you are thinking of the Imperial Blue...which is an improvement of the full blue cobalts....
On a side note, the blue cover does differ from the bds slightly in that the bc's scales are not very reflective(metallic) compared to the bds. This comparison can be made if you have the two different strains side by side.

[DISCUSDADDYSLC]

I JUST GOT TRUE OCEAN GREENS. THEY DO LOOK CLOSE TO BLUE DIAMONDS. I AM WAITING TO SEE SOME OCEAN GREENS HERE AND WHO ORIGNATED THEM AND WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH GREEN DIAMONDS.

Tony,sorry, I believe you are mistaken. A blue cover is actually an improved version of Sunny's bd...

hmmm...maybe I am...But Blue covers were available here in Calgary ten years ago (as described) before blue diamonds were widely available here(yes Im sure)....maybe thats where I got the idea from?

Tony

[crimson cross]

Tony, check out pics of Imperial Blues and blue covers. You will see the difference. Sonny Lo started selling bds in the late 80's, and you mentioned that bcs were sold in Canada in the last 10 years,1994 perhaps?.

[DISCUSDADDYSLC]

:DGEO,
THOSE PICS ARE THE REAL DEAL AWESOME SHOW ME MORE. :D

[gillyweed]

I just have more question after reading the posts.

If "true" BD breed true to 100% BD off springs, then does the Angel BD breed true as well? And, what about the Super Angel BD that I saw on Danny Ng website, does this version of BD repeat that same "breed true" quality as the earlier version of BD?

Maybe Danny Ng or Wayne know the answer? What do you guys think?

Very interesting subject!!!

gw

[Discusgeo]

These young Blue Diamonds are from the picture I posted in the first part of the thread. All are from the same parents.
:D
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/SNSOI-3.jpg
;)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/EOLTP-12-Good.jpg
:o
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/CWYUW-13-Good.jpg
::)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/YEMDF-9-Good.jpg
;D
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/TRFBA-10-Good.jpg
:)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/YGGDK-2.jpg

[jaydoc]

They don't seem as brilliant as the parents. Is that a photgaphy think or there age maybe?

[Discusgeo]

This is just the way I took the photo and different cameras. They are not in the same enviroment as the parents and these guy are young also, only 1 year old.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Is there anything about the name Diamond that suggest anything? I've seen Red Diamonds and Blue Diamonds...however no real distiguishing features that they have in common. When the name Blue Diamond was assigned, were they trying to describe Shape, Sheen or otherwise with the term Diamond?

[crimson cross]

Peter,
The name Blue Diamond was coined by Sunny Lo and his partner Rocky Ng and has/had been a registered trade mark of WWFF. Supposedly this is the strain with a full blue metallic body without any lines on the operculum. In its inception, it was hailed as the best blue discus ever bred. hth.

George,
Those are very nice bds. You should be very proud to own such beauties. Thanks for sharing.

[moonfire]

Wow, with blue diamonds like these, who needs imports..lol. Great going George and all the other aspiring North American breeders!!!!!!

[limige]

i agree, the word diamond referred to a specific shape that most people have lost. my bd and cobalt both have the defined diamond shape ...i'll see if i can post a pic.

mike

[limige]

here's the cobalt with the diamond shape

[JeffreyRichard]

There is a common theme developing ... many "marketing" names for this fish exist and are used, of which there is apparently confusion over.

If you check out a copy of Asian Discus II you see the names "Blue Cover", "Imperial Blue", "Angel Blue Diamond" and "Blue Bat" used by different breeders for what appear to be basically the same fish (genetically).

This poses several questions in my mind ...
Is there any difference in the Blue Diamond vs the Angel Blue Diamond? I would think there has to be a genetic benefit (better % of offspring which appear as the adults is one that comes to mind ...) Is there any difference in the Ocean Green and the Blue Diamond? Or is it just that some fish out of any BD spawn have a greener tint to them?

???

[JeffreyRichard]

Can anyone add any genetic legacy information???

My understanding is that the Blue Diamond originated from a crossing of the solid Cobalt Blue with a Ghost ... is this true?

[drphil]

this is my take on this subject......


if you breed a blue diamond to a blue diamond you will end up with 3 different color forms

angle blue diamond
blue diamond
green diamond also known as the ocean green


some blue's will get darker than others and some will be powder blue and some will be a faded blue green I have bred blue diamonds from many other breeders stock from SE Asia and this is what i have seen in most of the batches I have raised just my opinion though.....

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/8543/Picture017_edited.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/8543/Picture023_edited.jpg

MPH

[crazy4discus]

nice diamonds everyone

[elpaninaro]

Great thread everyone. I am learning a lot!

One quick question about what a "cobalt" is please,

I have seen photos of cobalts (on the net) that ranged from a rich turquoise color to what I would consider a true cobalt color- a very deep rich blue color with an almost deep indigo tone to it.

Does this color range exist within what is classified as "cobalt", or could this be an issue of photography, angle and one's computer monitor?

If cobalt does not achieve that rich deep blue color, then what does? Violet reflections perhaps?

Thanks much!

[crimson cross]

Hi Drphil.
I like your take on the color of the bd. Iye, can you elaborate on the body shape, eye color and also the sheen of the different types of bds you have bred? Do you see any difference between a bd from Penang and a blue cover from HK?tia. Trying to learn from your expertise...
Very nice bd stock you got there..most probably Penang Diamond Blues?

[crimson cross]

What, no response from Drphil??Surly you must know something after breeding bds from various breeders from South East Asia?? lol..

[Denny]

I have a pair that is a male abd and a female old school blue diamond. I have babies about a month old and they have different characteristics with the abd babies being totally clean with no bars. the rest of the babies have irregular dark barlike markings on their bodies and also in the tank is a batch of alancer babies that are a day older that have well defined vertical bars.

Here are the parents

[Denny]

here is an abd baby from the spawn

[Denny]

here is one of the old school bds

[Denny]

here is one of the alanquers as well

sorry the pix suck, I am remodeling the room

[JeffreyRichard]

I have a pair that is a male abd and a female old school blue diamond. I have babies about a month old and they have different characteristics with the abd babies being totally clean with no bars. the rest of the babies have irregular dark barlike markings on their bodies and also in the tank is a batch of alancer babies that are a day older that have well defined vertical bars.

Here are the parents


The fish on the left is not what I'd characterize as a Blue Diamond ... it has striations on the face. I'd consider it a solid turk ...