Flukes – Best Treatment?

[breezygrove]

Hospital Tank Parameters: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 84 degrees

We have misdiagnosed our fish, over the past couple of weeks, which lead to one loss. After autopsying the fish, we were able to determine the cause of death as gill flukes (see picture below). We have two other fish that are also exhibiting signs of fluke infestation, i.e. clamped fins, breathing out of only one gill, dark coloring and hiding in corners, scratching against objects in tank, and floating with head angled down 45 degrees. We need help determining which treatment option would be the best.

We read that Formalin is an effective means of combating gill flukes. Unfortunately, our quarantine/treatment tank has a school of young neon tetras which we recently purchased and are observing before we add them to the main tank. Our two ill discus are in the hospital tank as well. Our only available source of formalin is in Rid-Ich+ at 4.26%. Rid-Ich+ also contains malachite green. In the past, when we treated our tank for Ich, we lost many neon tetras as they seemed to have an adverse reaction to the medication. Therefore, in treating our discus for flukes, we tried formalin bath treatments in individual tubs (per the instructions at this site: http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/flukes1.shtml) at 15 drops/gallon for 30 minutes.

Does anyone have any advice about using formalin baths? In order to remove any fluke eggs that settled on the bottom, we have been cleaning the hospital tank scrupulously while treating the discus in individual formalin baths. Should we treat the entire hospital tank with Rid-Ich+?

We also purchased a product by Applus+ called Anti-Fluke which has the active ingredients 0,0 – dimethyl, 1 – hydroxyl, 2 – trichloromethyl phosphate. We haven’t tried this product yet, and are wondering if anyone has had any experiences with it.

The picture below includes a microscope photograph (100x) of the gill tissue and fluke from the autopsy of our deceased discus.

Thanks for any help!

Sameer and Shea

[Carol_Roberts]

Great pictures!

You have to keep the medication in the tank to kill the newly hatched flukes. It's really hard to get rid of flukes in a graveled tank. Most all discus carry flukes, but they don't usually kill older discus. Your fish may have a bacterial gill problem or external protozoa and/or flukes.

Most fish stores carry small bottles of formalin by the Rid ick and Quick Cure. Formalin will work on bacteria, protozoa and flukes.

I've never tried your other product. If you do decide to use it have extra aged water on hand and watch the fish to see how they react.

[fcdiscus]

What you are describing as Anti-Fluke is dylox. It is the same thing as found in Fluke Tads. It will work, but dosing every 4 days for a month or so will be necessary to eliminate most of the flukes and hatching eggs. And then there is still no guarantee. Frank

[discus_nw]

I perfer a dylox based med like Fluke Tabs or Anti-Fluke at full dosage. You are wasting your time and product doing 1/2 strength doses as some people suggest. I have used full strength dosages on 3 week old fry w/out incident.

[breezygrove]

Hey Carol, Frank, and Mat, thank you for replying to our posting.

Frank, can you tell me what the dosage should be for the Anti-Fluke medication? On the product itself it states that we should dose at 10 drops per gallon but it doesn't say how often we are supposed to dose. Also, on their website it says that it may destroy the nitrifying bacteria in the tank. We're concerned about that.

Carol, thanks for the compliment on the picture. We knew when we got into discus keeping that a microscope would be invaluable. :) We removed the baby neon tetras from the hospital tank and placed them in their own tank/tub. Now the only fish in the hospital tank are the two sick discus. We were reading through the forum and found your posting about prefilter sponges. We're putting that in place right away!

Sameer & Shea

[Multiclone]

I use a mixture of Praziquantel ( 5 mg / ltr- 10mg / gallon ), Trichofloron 20mg / 10 gallons, and formaldehyde 36% -2 drops per gallon.
I buy the Prazi powder in 200 gram lots but it can also be bought in tablets, Fluke and Tapeworm Tablets by aqua-master. Crush tablets and dissolve in a small amount of metholated spirits, 2 or 3 ml is usually sufficient. It doesn't actually dissolve it it makes it wettable so it doesn't float and stick to the sides at the water line of the tank. I then add about 50 ml of water, the prazi will form clumps ( the powder does anyway), add a couple of ml more of the metho. Place some boiling water in a jug and swirl the Prazi gently in the boiling water which is in a glass or jar till it warms up stirring it to break up any more clumps, then add it to the tank. It settles to the bottom but dissolves over time, most of it anyway. I then add the Trichofloron which also is sold by Aqua Master- Para-Cide in tablet form. I use a liquid form which I buy from the local garden centre here in Australia under the brand name Lawn Grub Killer 500 by Chemspray there are other brands as well. The Trichofloron in the liquid form is 500 grams per litre and comes in 100 ml bottles (50 grams) for about $9 AUS. In the tablet form it is 20mg per tab 25 tabs per bottle = 500mg for about $20 AUS. I mightn't be a genius but I know a saving when I see one. I then add the formaldehyde. I do not feed the fish until they come to the front of the glass asking for it as they tend to go off food initially. I increase aeration depending on the amount of fish being treated. I also change 50% water every 12 hours and add the above meds to the water being replaced. For an example one fish in 25 gallons after 12 hrs replace 50% water so add the above meds for 12 1/2 gal. Do this for 48 hrs and again 7 days later. I realise the amount of the water changes is probably excessive but I have nothing in the tank but an airstone. Nearly forgot, do not be surprised if there is a bacterial bloom in the tank the formaldehyde does keep it under some control but not completely. The Prazi and Tricho will not affect biofiltration but the hyde will.
I have used this on fry with no lasting ill effects.
Once again there are a lot of different methods out there this is just one of them. I find this works for me. I have treated my whole system with this (3,000 gallons) fishroom and holding pond without losing a single tadpole which live in the pond.
The cost of ingredients. Prazi powder less than $1 a gram, Trichofloron $9 for 50 grams, Formaldehyde $20 for 500 ml $AU.

Geoff

[Carol_Roberts]

I would guess day 1, day 4, day 8, etc. for your med. . . . You should see improvement within a day if flukes are the problem. Remember, flukes are usually only a serious problem in fry and diseased fish

[fcdiscus]

I sent an answer to your pm Sameer and Shea.
Very interesting Multiclone!
I also agree with Mat- I now use fluke tabs at full strength, not half.
Frank

[breezygrove]

Hi Dylox will not hurt the biofilter. Is there any other drug in that
particular medication? If not- I would use the recommended dosage
every 4 days for at least 4 times, maybe 5 or 6 depending on the density
(amount of fish) and effect of the treatments. Frank

[discus_nw]

My bio-filtration has never been affected by either Fluke-Tabs or Anti-Fluke. The only thing it killed was my albino dwarf bristlenose catfishes that were in the tanks. I did that trick several times. :o

[breezygrove]

Matt,
EEK! I hope that doesn't happen to our albino corys! We'll keep a close eye on them.

Geoff,
Thank you for the expert advice. We will have to look around to see if those ingredients are available in our area. How did you come up with that?

Frank,
Thank you for your reply. The active ingredients are 0,0; dimethyl, 1; hydroxyl, 2; trichloromethyl phosphate which closely resembles Dylox. It comes in liquid form. With a full dose, the fish seem to have no adverse reaction.

Carol,
After the Dylox treatment, Peaches perked up after a day, so it looks like it;s definitely flukes. BUT; now he had white stringy feces. After putting the white feces under the microscope, we saw what looked like capillaria eggs. There were also some worm like bodies (dead) which resembled Capillaria (see picture.) So now, we have flukes and capillaria!!! We hypothesize that the capillaria came from some live worms. Peaches eats other things, but Nemo will only eat the live worms. Since they are both being treated in the same quarantine tank, Peaches ate some too though Nemo does not have any of the white stringy feces.

Anyway, which treatment is best for Capillaria and will it work along with Dylox? In the past, we treated our other discus with Metronidazole, which seemed to work. We did a little research and found these other treatments. Do you recommend any over the others?

Fenbendazol (Panacur TM)
Praziquantel (Droncit) in a 1-2 hour bath, instead of in aquarium as it affects filter
Garlic; Fed every feeding for five weeks

Thanks,
Sameer and Shea

[Multiclone]

Prazi doesn't affect filters.
Check out this link :http://www.pondrx.com/shop/details.php?productId=57&catId=32

Geoff

[breezygrove]

Geoff

Thanks! I read the information on that link, and it states that the Prazi treats both capillaria and gill flukes. Would you recommend that we stop with the anit-fluke and start with Prazi?

Sameer and Shea

[Multiclone]

There are many different methods and treatments for, flukes. Mine is just one. I also have used salt with my previous post to ease the stress on the gills if it is a severe case. All I can say is what works for me. Prazi wipes out flukes, tapeworms etc, the Tricho does the external parasites.
I wouldn't stop the treatment you are currently doing see it to the end then make your judgement on what you want to do next if you need something else. You have had excellent advice from Carol and others. I have not used Dylox so I cannot give an opinion there.
Like all products there are those that like it and those that don't. It comes down to personal choice.
I have come to believe like others that flukes are here forever and we will never get rid of them totally. I use the Prazi and the Trichofloron as a preventative every 4-6 months whether they need it or not. I also treat fry when they are 6 weeks old whether they need it or not. Due to the reaction of the chemical flukes etc will not become resistant.

Geoff

[Carol_Roberts]

I agree with multiclone do one treatment at a time, give them a rest and then proceed to another if needed.

[breezygrove]

Carol/Geoff

Thanks again for the advice. What can we do in the meanwhile to curb the effects of the capillaria on peaches?

Sameer and Shea

[Multiclone]

I have just done a search on Dylox and surprise, surprise it is just another brand name for Trichlorfon. Both Prazi and Trichlorfon are mild.
I would add the Prazi now with the Dylox. When I first used them as the critters began dying the fish became agitated and began rubbing after a couple of hours after the initial onslaught of dying flukes they settled down fine.

Geoff

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hello,

Am sorry to be rude! But Flukes do not kill discus water quality ONLY!

[alex_m]

Hi,

IMO the best treatment for flukes is with Fluke Tabs.

alex

[breezygrove]

Alex,

Thanks. It looks like the fluke tabs have basically the same ingredients as the dylox. It seems to be working so far!

CARY_GLdiscus

We had been changing the water in the tank daily, until the point where we correctly diagnosed the fish. The medication has led to our changing the water several times daily. There didn’t seem to by anything wrong with our water quality at the point where we lost Candycane – see the parameters on the first post. This has led us to believe that it must have been the flukes. Candycane’s autopsy only affirmed that.

Geoff,

Thanks for the research and advice. The link that you provided seemed to have the best deal for the Prazi. The combination looks like it would be best for our Discus' condition - flukes & capillaria. We're just going to have to wait for the shipment of Prazi to arrive in the mail. In the meanwhile, the discus are responding okay to just the Dylox.

Reading the description on PondRX, it seems like quite the miracle drug. Is there something wrong with it that they don't state on their site?

Shea & Sameer

[breezygrove]

Can anybody see our pictures? If you can't, you can right-click the box and copy the URL of the picture to see it. Does anybody have advice on how to make them appear in the post?

[Carol_Roberts]

I'm guessing they are linked to another site?

You can post them directly from your hard drive. When you answer a post you will see the place to attach pictures if you scroll down.

[alex_m]

IMO FLuke Tabs is very effective-i am not sure why people say that it does not work.

IME- i treat per instructions on bottle and repeat one dose after seven days.

Watch your temp. cause you are going to harm your fish at 88 and above.

Do not treat parents carrying fry cause you loose the slime and the babies.

Once you are done put charcoal in your filter.

Just IMO.

alex

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Alex,
Some meds work better at lower Ph and some better at High This is the same for water hardness and softness and coould be your case.

breezygrove,
Everyone on this board has gill and body flukes on their discus. Still IME something else went wrong. You see its like a chain reaction 1 thing goes wrong and others follow. Also body weight and mass will also be a factor. Meaning smaller fish will die faster then bigger fish if toxins are involved.

For Example, So if the water quality went bad and the fish are small then slowly their bodies are being poisoned now if they have flukes to boot and now gill infection starts because of the flukes then you may have 3 problems now against You! Again Am not trying to be Mean just stateing the facts and hope am giveing you some ideal of what am saying.

Also When the fish is being poisioned slowly from water Quality You will not see the problem to later on down the road. Your water could look clean but does not mean it is this is why when shipping most of the good guys use new water for bagging not TANK. once the levels peck out in the body of the fish all hell breaks lose this is why most fail at raiseing fry and blame Flukes. Flukes and discus are like corn flakes and milk IME.

hth

Everyone,
All meds will hurt Your Bio even salt! it might not kill them for good but they still take a hurting. THINK ABOUT IT?

hth
Cary Gld!

[discus_nw]

Depends on the med as to whether it kills the bio-filter. Some meds that kill bacteria have no effect on protozoa and some that kill other organisms don't harm bacteria. That's why alot of antibiotics kill nothing but bacteria and nothing else. It's too complicated to get into here. :)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I agree ;)

[fcdiscus]

Good Post Cary- just like you taught me down to the shipping water! And it is all true. Frank :)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

THANKS Frank,
You are a very good Man! Not many would admit or give credit
To someone who helped them like You do!

Hell I gave prize discus away! sent free discus to many!
Tought most how to breed ship and set up. I even Changed My plans for alot of people just so they could come over and pick out fish. And to think I can't even get a post from 1 of them saying or emailing me saying I wish You well On your new Building Plans.

Lets just say I know who My real friends are Ok i'll stop crying LOL!

Cary Gld!

[breezygrove]

Alex - Thanks for sharing your experience with Fluke-Tabs with us. We haven't tried those yet but we'll be sure to follow your directions if/when we do buy some! :)

Cary - Thanks for your input. We've already removed the potential cause of unclean tank water by increasing our water changes and monitoring the quality of the water more closely than ever. Your comments are appreciated nonetheless. :)

Carol, Geoff, and Frank - Thanks for all the great advice that got us and our discus through the "fluke disaster". You guys gave us some really great advice and all our discus thank you! (Doña Calafia, Ember, Moari, Nixie, Nemo, Okra Winfrey, Peaches, Periwinkle, Pixie, Pluto, The Two Alenquers, and The Two Convicts)

Sameer & Shea

[CARY_GLdiscus]

GOOD Deal!

Hope they get well soon!

[Multiclone]

Hi Everyone,
I read somewhere that the 10 most important things in keeping Discus are:
1. Water quality
2. Water Quality
3. Water Quality
4. Water Quality, etc. etc. etc,
More time is spent on keeping good water quality than any other thing e.g.: W/C, cleaning tanks, cleaning filters, checking Ph and hardness levels etc etc.
IMO one of the biggest dangers to discus especially fry is bacteria from overfeeding and poor maintenance.
What we are trying to do here basically is to keep our discus in as a STRESS free condition as possible I think it is stress which triggers a lot of our problems.
How do we give our fish stress free conditions? That is the million dollar question.
This is what I do:
(a) Clean tanks twice a day. I made a siphon with a scourer attached to the bottom so every time I sucked up the waste the bottom gets a good clean as well. Fry tanks are cleaned before every feed especially up to a month old.
(b) As much as possible or able. 50% daily would be great.
(c) I wipe out tanks weekly.
(d) Check water parameters 3 times a week or more if needed until satisfied you know the stability of your water. Avoid ph swings like the plague (no pun intended).
(e) Avoid live foods. We can obtain good quality foods these days.
(f) DO NOT OVERFEED this was one of the hardest ones for me to do initially. Sometimes I still do but I clean out uneaten food before the next feed.
(g) A balanced diet. I make my own food which is mainly beef heart based with liquid chlorophyll, spirulina and a high dose of vitamins with trace elements added. Plus a couple of commercial foods. Frozen yes live no.
Plus there are the potential stress producers.
Keep a spare: air pump, heater, and in our case a water pump or anything else which may induce stress if it should break. Here in the Gold Coast Hinterland we have quite a few power outages due to storms, so we bought a generator before we bought fish and it has paid for itself already as we have had 7 power failures this summer one lasting for 48 hours. Another stress situation has just arisen over the last 2 days we have had temperatures of over 40C with 30's before that. Last night at 1.30am it was 32deg still and as I type this at 10.30 pm it is 28. Over the last 4 days the water temp has risen to above 32 this is causing some stress (not too mention me). I usually do not like swings anymore than 1 deg especially down.
My use of UV and Ozone is not to "sterilize" the water I do not agree with that. Ozone is used maybe 3 times a week for 2hrs at a time. UV is on 24/7 but only a portion of the water goes through it. However if I have an outbreak of something I want all the weapons in my arsenal I can have.
IMO we should have a program for instance we have along term goal to achieve with discus I estimate it will take 2 yrs to finish our setup. It is over 3 stages Stage 1 is to do with breeding; Stage 2 is to do with growing the fry. Stage 3 is still in the future. Stage one is about 75% finished. I set myself a middle road which I will call my perfect setup (which there is no such thing of course). For instance my ph for my breeders is 5.8 which is my middle road. I allow a swing of .3 either way before I get too concerned then I act if needed. The same goes for water hardness, temp etc. The same will go for Stage 2 ph will be a middle road of 7 and the hardness will be greater than Stage 1. Another example, I have lost 2 batches of eggs due to our heat way over the last 2 days. My middle road for breeding temp is 28C with a tolerable swing of 1 deg each way. So the swing of 4.5 deg up is way out of my "perfect" range and obviously the fish as well. It will not happen again.
(h) Medication. We give monthly, 3 monthly meds for our cats, dogs, horses etc etc so why not our fish! I consider Flukes to be the fleas of our fish and a program MUST be put in place to control them and worms as well. A number of people put garlic and other ingredients to control worms in their food. IMHO a meds program must be put in place whether needed or not. I avoid adding anything to the water with Sodium (salt) in it. I consider it to be one of the best initial meds there is and that is all I use it for. I do not want anything building a tolerance to it.

So in the end it is STRESS, STRESS, STRESS which mainly kills our fish. The entire above are just means to keep our fish as stress free as possible walking our own individual "middle road". Life being what it is we are sure to have a problem sooner or later and when that problem arrives it will only be a minor one because we have kept our fish as stress free as possible.
We all have an investment in our fish from the person with one fish to the breeders with thousands. We all put time into our fish, add all the time up I think we would be surprised just how much time we do put in. For instance just say we had 2 fish we spend 2 hours a week looking after these fish we keep these fish for 1 year which = 104 hrs or 4.3 days. We become slack neglect tank cleaning forget doing water changes here and there. Sooner or later bang no fish. We have wasted 4.3 days of our lives. Nothing more needs to be said.

Just one other thing, this is a fantastic forum with a lot of good meaning people giving advice on all sorts of topics and discussions. Everyone and I mean everyone has a story to tell and this forum is a means to tell that story from a beginner to an experienced breeder. IMO no one should use this forum to criticize another. We are all constantly learning. There are ways and means of getting our point across with gentle comments. To me we are all moving along together we all help each other to move forward it is called evolution and it never stops. Remember what goes around comes around.
IMHO of course. ;)

Geoff

[alex_m]

IMO and IME Fluke tabs work in various conditions.

At pH 7.7 and 1000 ms

at pH 6.5-6.9 and 150ms

alex

[breezygrove]

Amen Geoff!!!

Alex,
Georgious fish!