couple pbms, how treat. fin rot, ick, bloat, thin fish

[chu]

REceived my first discus couple months ago. Arrived in 62F water! They are ok with help from many. But they have never all been 100%.

75g tank at 88F. Slightly alkaline. Planted tank.

Discus #1: Bloated after eating and always breaths more strenously than others.. He is boss and the biggest. Bloat used to go away 1/2 hour after eating. Now it takes many hours. He also has a little fin rot.

Discus #2: white, raised spot on side. How could this be ick in these temps?! What else could it be. I have a ram (currently moved out) with a similar spot for months and an angel (never with the discus) also with a similar spot for months. Ram and angel have been treated for ick, bact and parasites. Spot still there.

Discus #3 and 4: TWo cobalts are not growing very well. The smaller of the two, his eyes are looking out of proportion. Both are thin on top if viewed head on. They will only eat blood worms. ALL other fish eat flakes, sinking, floating, etc. but cobalts refuse. The are aggressive with blood worms. None of my fish will eat beef heart. I am most worried about these guys. They are getting darker in color, shier, and the worst one has clamped fins
chu

[jules]

D#1: you could try feeding him a little less- bosses can be little piggies

D#2: may not be ich - do you have a pic? What is your w/c schedule?

D#3: how big are your discus?

[chu]

Try this one more time. :D Having trouble with this post.

Discus # 1 How do I put boss fish on a diet and make sure my skinny cobalts get extra?

Discus #2 is my turquoise. Will get a pic on later. wc 2x/wk, 30-40%. Missed one over last two weeks.

Discus #3 cobalts 3", turquoise 5" or so, other two approaching 6".

Having trouble posting with the pic today. Going to send this then try to post a pic of my cobalt on next post.

chu

[chu]

Here is a pic of the largest of the two cobalts with my turquoise. See the clamped fins. When resting, his fins clamp even worse. His eyes are getting blacker too. (cobalts had red eyes to start, the turquoise always had the black colored eyes.)

[Carol_Roberts]

Common treatments for discus
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=16348

[chu]

Discus #2 Here is the best pic I can get of that white spot. It is best viewed from an angle (head on angle) and it sticks up. Can be seen in pic on left side of fishes body. Look in pic just above the side fin. Ick?

chu

[chu]

Carol,

Thank you for your disease info page. I have read that before--it is a great page.

I guess my bloated fish does not fit the bill as his bloating comes and goes. The white spot and thinning cobalt also do not really fit in anywhere.

Guess I should have been more specific.

Bloated fish: bloats after eating. bloat goes away after several hours. epsom salts and castor oil have used, (not aggressively) (bloat goes away faster after eating.) Problem may be getting progressively worse as bloat takes many hours to lessen now where it used to only take few hours. Also, currently, fish looks like it just finished a good feeding BEFORE the am feeding. Fish also breaths more rapidly and strenously than other fish. Is breathing pbm from constipation (or bact,) or should I be looking into something else complicating things? I fingure I go after the bloat and see if respiration improves. Just let me know if I am wrong here.

Is this constipation to be treated with lower temps, epsom salts, or is it a bact. problem getting worse? If so, how do I treat?

__________________________________________________ _

Thinning cobalts, red eyes black, small size, not growing, smallest one is shy and clamped fins. They do eat blood worms but refuse all other food (others eat varying foods.) What is it? How do I treat?

__________________________________________________

White spot. See previous post for pic. TAnk has been 90F to control similar white spots on other fish. Turned down tank to 88F about a week ago ( the white spots had disappeared.) What is is--ick--at 88F?!??! How do I treat?

__________________________________________________ __

Also, have a little fin rot in tank. See that it is treated with lower temps, salt and things like melafix, or malachite green or jungle fungus eliminator AND lots of water changes. I think I have a handle on this one.

_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
I feel i need at least an educated guess on what each problem is and how to treat it. Then I will need to know which problem is most serious--to be treated first.

Please help. 'Do I go low or high temps? salt or epsom salts? Feed (thin cobalts)or do not feed (bloat)?

Chu ::)

[chu]

Hello, ;D Maybe the problems my discus have are too involved for a forum. Last time I had problems, I self diagnosed and medicated--nearly killing them. I did kill several of my other fish. Could someone give me a company or organization to call regarding the health of these discus?

I have all kinds of books and even books on fish diseases. Problem is, books are not experience, do not have very good pics, do not give advice on what to do for multiple problems. Sometimes the symptoms are consistent with several diseases.

By the way, the white spot got flat then disappeared. I would guess some kind of egg sack and the eggs hatched! Hope the warm temps will kill the nasty.

My local vets have not even heard of discus. ??? I live sw tier NY--in the sticks! Closest real civilization is in Rochester and Buffalo, hours away.

I am gonna have to do something soon. :-\ Cobalts getting worse and bloated fish getting worse. Hoping to avoid using the wrong toxic meds. :( Maybe I will guess internal parasite with coblats, raise temp, metra. and feed, feed. That will be ok for whtie spot if it was ick. I will use democracy. More fish will benefit from heat and feeding well--maybe I will only lose the bloated fish. If the bloat is bacterial, I have NEVER been successful saving a bloated fish. Guess I can put him last on the priority list :'(

chu :-\

[jules]

Chu, Carol will give you very good advice based on her many experiences.

What are your water parameters?
Do you have a hospital tank because plants won't tolerate meds or sea salt well.

[chu]

WAter paramenters:

75g tank w/ 5 discus, 1 bristlenose, 3 cory cats, 4 danios, 3 glowlights. Substrate 2" deep, few plants--java fern, swords some bulb plants (dwarf lily). Huge piece of bogwood. Little hairy green algae on glass now. Also, some of that brown algae in a darker corner of the tank. 2-48", 40 watt bulbs with reflectors. Glass top. 10-12 hours light/d. TAnk sheltered from any window or sunlight.

Fluval 404, biowheel and outside cannister, fluval inside canister. Filter with bio balls and filter floss only. Little turbulance on surface as I have dissipated water coming from filters.

Water: ph 7.2, kh 100ppm, gh 200ppm, ammon and nitrites 0, nitrates 5-10ppm. phospate 0, silicate 0, iron just under .1mg/L. O2 and co2 unknown. Think co2 is around 5 if I am reading kh correctly. 88F

Wc 30-40%/2x/wk. Had been treating water with sodium bisulfate. ph bounce too much trouble. I am not breeding discus, so going to give tap water a try. In process of switching over. Add discus trace essentials (kent) and kent liquid fert at half dose. Root tabs with iron in substrate. Occasionally add stress coat. Recently quit adding blackwater. Will add iron to water when it comes in and plan to put plants in little 4" shallow plastic containers with flourite and topped with substrate. WAiting on shipment. (Iron was 0. Got algae blooms when I added enough fert. to get iron up.)

Tap water--from well, Co2 10 (I think), kh 150ppm, gh 250ppm, ph 8.0 (seems to hold at 7.4 in all my tanks.) Nitrites, chloramines, phosphate, silicate 0, iron just under .1mg/L, nitrates 5-10 ppm. Do mix bypassed well water with a little softened water where I use POTASSIUM CHLORIDE which is supposed to be good for plants and will not hurt fish. Softened water, same parameters as bypassed well water except o gh and o iron. All These numbers are after water ages and is heated to 85F.

I do have a hospital tank but it is currently full of 4 angels, 6 silver dollar and 2 ram. All re-cooperating from a different over stocked tank and fin rot. Ram may have a virus. Probably sacrifice him. One angel may have same. Angel Looks so healthy but white spot on fin will not go away. These fish need few more weeks to re-cooperate and be ready for sale. I do not want to pass anything to someone elses tank. Tank 29G. couple plastic plants, established, fine bit of gravel in bottom, fake log to hide in. Dim lighting, airstone, one outside waterfall type cannister.

I have put pothos roots down in all tanks to help with nitrates in bypassed water. Works great! Nitrates staying around 5-15ppm--even in my koi tank (nitrates tend used to stay around 40+ with koi--even with lots and lots of water changes.) Pothos works great!!!

Hope this is helpful. Just need to know how to get these discus better without making things worse.

Any help and /or a reference would be great!! ::)

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

It's really hard to treat discus in a graveled, planted tank.
I think many of your problems are due to water quality and maintainance.

Discus #1: Bloated after eating and always breaths more strenously than others.. He is boss and the biggest. Bloat used to go away 1/2 hour after eating. Now it takes many hours. He also has a little fin rot. external bacteria or protozoa, maybe internal worms, food should be soaked

Discus #2: white, raised spot on side. How could this be ick in these temps?! What else could it be. I have a ram (currently moved out) with a similar spot for months and an angel (never with the discus) also with a similar spot for months. Ram and angel have been treated for ick, bact and parasites. Spot still there. Not ick - bacterial plaque - water quality

Discus #3 and 4: TWo cobalts are not growing very well. The smaller of the two, his eyes are looking out of proportion. Both are thin on top if viewed head on. They will only eat blood worms. ALL other fish eat flakes, sinking, floating, etc. but cobalts refuse. The are aggressive with blood worms. None of my fish will eat beef heart. I am most worried about these guys. They are getting darker in color, shier, and the worst one has clamped fins intestinal flagellates treat all discus with metro


Your discus have all the common problems we see here everyday. The link I posted gives all the common treatments.

I suggest a bare bottom hospital tank with a cycled filter if you have an extra one. Otherwise you can do extra water changes to keep ammonia and nitrItes close to zero. You can probably do water changes straight from the tap since tap is higher pH than tank. Temperature should be 86 for first day.

First day I would dose 1 or 2 teaspoons epsom salt per 10 gallons and formalin as per the link I posted. 8 hours later do the 50% water change. Water change again the next day and start raising temp to 92+ degrees. When tank reaches 92 start metro as per the link. Continue daily water changes of 50% feed favorite foods - like bloodworms. Leave temp up for a week after treatment. Print the link and follow the directions.

When is the last time you cleaned the filter media(not the biowheels)? Smell inside your canister filters - does it smell almost good enough to drink?

You have lots of stuff coating the rocks and plants in your tank. When you look at pictures posted by the breeders of their facilities do you see that in their tanks? There is a reason I stress clean, clean clean. The cleaner you keep your tanks the healthier your discus will be.

[chu]

Carol,

My computer is arguring with me. I will do several short posts to you and see if that works.

THank you for your help

clare

[chu]

bloated fish, coat food with what? castor oil or metro? For how long?

[chu]

Turquiose with white spot:

Never heard of bact. plague before. Sounds ucky!! As you know whtie spot disappeared and fish looked fine for a day. Now he has numerous white spots (size of salt granules) mosty on dorsal and tail fin.

I have dropped temp in tank to 86 to work on the bloated fish. Been feeding cator oil soaked in brine shrimp and flake food. All fish eating this. Epsom salts in tank as per your link. This for two days now. ------THen the little white spots appeared on the turquiose.

chu

[chu]

I clean each of the three filters 1x/3wk. They all get changed on different weeks. They smell fine but I would not want to drink it.

Should I change more often than this? Just a note, when i took pics, I had just started using the kent fert again. Tank had been looking clean and shiny but plants were dieing of iron defecienty. I cleaned up plants and put in kent fert, but it is mixed in with nutrients and then algae bloom. When pic was taken, there was greenhairy algae on glass (part of reason pic looked 'blurry') and I had just started a brown algea problem toward front of tank only. My plastic plants always look ucky as I do not remove them and scrape off old brown algea from months ago. Considering removing all plastic stuff anyway. It gets so ugly over time.

I think when I get the iron supplement (not mixed with other nutrients) in, the tank will look cleaner as the algae problems will go away. You know, the fish did get worse when I got the algae blooms. If fish are healthy, Should I change water more often if I am getting an algae bloom? I hear that makes the bloom worse! I know I have to change water for the fish now, just wanted to know for future reference.

I did recently put in pothos. Really helped with nitrates. My tap water can have 20ppm nitrates at times )during snow melt especially.
chu

[Carol_Roberts]

bloated fish, coat food with what? castor oil or metro? For how long?

Soak dry food in water to soften food before feeding - use epsom salt to treat bloat

A bacterial plaque not plague. A lesion, an infected scrape.

Castor oil? who told you to use castor oil? I bet the oil has coated the filter media.

Healthy plants and healthy discus have different requirements. You need to decide which you want to focus on.

[chu]

Carol,

Sorry 'bout the plaque, plague thing--I recently broke my glasses and not seeing so clearly!

I understand the soak the food thing now. I used the castor oil from a past experience. Several years ago I had bloated angels. Epsom salt in water and castor oil in food was the recommendation.

Bloated fish looks much better tonight. STill breathing little fast and fins looking more ragged, but I will continue with your recommendations and see if those don't impove too.

THe plants in the tank are few and cheap plants. Care of discus is first. I figured it would take me a bit to get things figured out, so I bought tough, cheap, fast growing plants.

Am hoping to get other sickies out of hospital tank. It is intended for the discus.

Do you still recommend more filter cleanings, or is my problem the algae and extra nutrients in the water? Maybe a better question to ask would be can i clean filters too much and wipe out beneficial bacteria?

I would like to change the subject a bit. Quarantine process. I read the post by brewmaster15. Saw some suggestions in a Dagen book. Do you have a recommendation--post somewhere?

Another question about qt. People using prazi for tape worm. Then I see people using panacur in with food for worms. THen I see the use of fluke tabs for flukes of course. I am seeing all three of these meds being used in a single qt (not at same time.) WHat I don't understand, fluke tabs kill tapeworms, other worms, so why all the different types of meds.

Saw one qt, maybe a bit simpler I thought about trying when the time comes.
Day 1: Prazi medicated bath (1-2hrs at 60-75mg/gallon)
Day 1-3: Over next three days, raise temp to 96F
Day 3-13: Water at 96F. (lower if other things in tank will not
tolerate)
On days 3,5,7, treat with metra 250mg/20g
Change water 50% days 4,6,8
Day 8, carbon to remove meds
As soon as fish eating well, give fenbendazole in food 1% by food volume. Feed this in one large or two small feedings. Repeat feeding in three weeks.

Now, here is the same question again. Fenbendazole is impossible to get, at least so far, for me. I noticed prazi in food, fluke tabs, paracide-x (di-n-butyl oxo stannate and magnesium oxide) in food all for internal nematodes and tapeworms. Would any of these meds substitute for the panacur? Is the simpler qt above a good one. Is it missing anything?

The qt question is my second priority for now. Just trying to learn about qt and meds BEFORE panick time.

Your help is always appreciated. Have a great day. My discus are already happier!

chu

[jules]

Chu:

Here's an informative post on algae:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=4888
Post on Quarantine
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6269

You can wipe out beneficial bacteria in your bio filter by using chlorinated tap water and hot or really cold water.

Gravel is tough to keep clean in a planted tank. Are you vacuuming on a regular basis? It may be causing some of your problems.

Julie

[chu]

Jules,

I vacuum the gravel with each water change(2x/wk) with a python.
Vacuum area where most food falls with each wc. Kinda'rotate vacuuming under bogwood and ornaments, vacuum in and around plants but I do not disturb the roots. do have cory's, bristlenose to assist with clean-up.

I have very thick substrate 3-4" . Working on getting plants in little containers and removing about half the substrate. Wnat to do this over a longer period of time so as not to shock the whole system.

My tap water has no chlorine, heavy metals, ammonia, nitrites in it. It does have little less than .1mg/L iron and some nitrates in it. Nitrates can run anywhere from 0-20ppm, but usually around 5ppm. When I put tap water in, I adjust temp at source first, then I shower water in to help it degas.

Thanks for the algae post, I will give it a look

Science is all trial and error

Chu

[chu]

Jules,

Went on ahead and read the links. Had already looked over qt post. Found algae post interesting. It listed some paramenters for planted tanks.

My light is around 2 w/g or lower--I do use reflectors, supposed to increase wattage??!!? I am working on bringing iron up when I get a 'pure' iron suppl. I do not have a test kit for potassium but I use potassium in water softener and I do mix the softened water in with my bypassed water, so there has to be some k in the tank. My test kit shows 1ppm phospate, nitrates 10ppm. One big problem, and may be bigger than I know, no co2. I am working on a DIY Co2 injector.

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

Care
50% daily water change with aged (dechlorinated, warmed, aerated) tap water.
Wipe down inside of tank with paper towels at least every week.
Rinse prefilter daily, sponges and internal filter once a month in dechlorinnated water.


It's really hard to maintain discus health with twice a week water changes and 3 - 4 inches of gravel.

[chu]

I can up the water changes. Working on getting some of the gravel out. What is a prefilter?

Thank you

clare

[chu]

Can I substitute paracide-x for the panacur for deworming?

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

I can up the water changes. Working on getting some of the gravel out. What is a prefilter?

Thank you

clare


You should read through the stickied topics in the beginners section. Here is the thread on prefilter sponges from that section http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=7853

[jules]

Clare, I would wait until your hospital tank is free for temporary housing while you remove the gravel because all the nasties that will come out of 3-4" substrate will really make the Discus sick.
Or check out some other posts on how people remove gravel.

[chu]

Jules,

That is a good suggestion. I will do that.

chu

[chu]

Carol,

Prefilter sponge, that makes a lot of sense. It will help alot.

I have a fluval 101 (I think). It is an inside the tank sponge filter. Looks like a tall cylinder you attach to the side. THe intake is basically little slats running across the lower portion. Not sure how to put a prefilter on this. Also have trouble removing for clean-up, the gunk goes everywhere. Maybe this is not a good filter to use in a discus tank--or maybe I need a different way to keep it clean. What do you think?

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

I like the Aqua Clear filters for discus. Aqua Clear 200 for a 29 gallon tank, Aqua Clear 500 for a 55 gallon tank

[chu]

CArol,

I am in process of putting on prefilters (today) and getting substrate out (soon)--plants in little glass vases.

Going to take internal sponge filter out and replace with an outside filter with a bio-wheel. Also, I have a bio wheel currently on the tank, but with that filter, water must first run through an air tight container. It gets full in a week or less and bio wheel will not spin. There are a lot of tubes the water must travel through too and I am constantly bumping them and bio wheel quits spinning. Also, the filter is a bear to clean and get primed again--I just hate maintaining it. So it is going too. To replace the sponge and bio wheel filter, I went with an emperor 400. (It was like the aqua clear but a little less expensive as it was on sale.) It is a hang on the outside filter that is easy to change filter medium--or add and remove charcoal if needed--and it has two bio wheels. For a 30-80g. The new filter has one intake (easy to apply and change the prefilter) and the waterfall type flo. That outflo is much gentler than the other two filters I have. They just blow the water out and I am constatly messing with that to keep surface agitation down. I will continue running the fluval 404 with the prefilter.

An update with the fish. THe epsom salt helped the bloated fish as it did the first time I tried it several weeks ago. But, as before, within a few days, the bloat is back with eating. I will just keep an eye on him, soak food and give him brine shrimp couple times a week. THe spots are gone on the turqoise. While I was waiting for metro to come in, I went on ahead and treated for fin rot. Daily 50% water changes, temp 86F, salts 1T/10g and Jungle fungus clear--nitrofurasine, acriflavin. Fin rot is impoved but not gone. Will run charcoal a few days then start in with higher temps and metro. Wish my fish a little luck!

Thanks :D

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

Good luck Chu :)

[chu]

CArol,

I treated my fish with some panacur I finally located. Just mixed with the bloodworms. The bloat on the one fish seems to be gone. Yippee! :D :D :-*

Prefilters are on. STill waiting on the new filters to come in to replace the ones that are difficult to maintain.

Hoped to wait until hospital tank clear of fish to remove substrate from discus tank, but looks like it is going to be a while. Just cannot get rid of the bacterial fin rot. Going to have to get that substrate out in order to get tank cleaned up. Going to start getting it out tonight. I hope the discus fare well for this clean-up. Going to put plants in little vases with flourite and substrate. Then I will start the metro. Temps already up to 90F today.

Wish us luck!

Thanks,

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

Good luck Chu ;D

[GulfCoastDiscus]

The best advice you have gotten is to go barebottom. If you have an extra tank, place all you fish into that tank along with the filter and heater then clean out the other tank. Spray paint the bottom and the back with light colored paint. Once dry put everything back. You'll have less problems and your discus will be a lot healthier.

Dan

[chu]

Already did all that. Tank now barebottom. Plants in little glass vases. EAsy maintenance filters on. Two heaters submerged so they do not have to be unplugged for water changes. Prefilters on. Currently temp 92F and treating with metro as/Carol's advice.

Thanks all

chu

[jules]

Glad to hear things are going better.
Would you post a picture of your "renovated tank"? :D

[chu]

I will get some pics on tonight. BAd news. That skinny cobalt really turned black and quit eating. Just hides in corner at bottom of tank. The bloated, split fins is flicking fins (like he is itchy)--bloat is gone--turning dark brown, darts a little when swimming, seems to irritated to eat. Hiding in corner with black cobalt. Seriously suspect of flukes. Another forum advised possible internal bact. on cobalt.

Wc of late 2-3x/d, 30-50% ph 7.4. airstones. temp 92F, VEry clean water but battling brown and now brush algae. prefilters and glass cleaned daily. Bottom vacuumed daily. nitrates, phosphates, iron, silicates all very low. ammonia, nitrites 0.

Other fish look good. Good color, appetite and width. Yeah

chu

[chu]

Skinny black cobalt came out to eat yesterday, but now two of the fish, including the weakened cobalt, are flicking their fins and acting itchy. Bact or flukes? Temps still at 92 and continueing metra. Today last day for the metra.

chu

[Carol_Roberts]

maybe bacteria. Bacteria like higher temps and sugar base in metro. Finish metro Tx. Continue daily 50% water changes. Keep heat up for a week after last dose metro. After heat back to normal consider next treatment.

[chu]

thank you carol

chu