Very Rare Wild Cobalt

Here is a photo of one of my Wild Cobalts. It is a rare discus as noted in Wild Caught Discus by Bernd Degen.

I'm still working on photo issues. As you see I'm no photographer. I do graphics editing but not phototaking. ;D Thanks for looking.

Tank status and experiences:
75-G tank
soft water direct from faucet into bucket then tank
never do acid testing (only but one time)
never do ammonia testing
Temps range: 84-88
keep stock of tannins (Peat) for medicinal use & softening, when needed
keep two heaters running (150w and 100w)
keep stock supply of 100% natural Tea Tree Oil
keep stock of Clout tabs
Rena airpump set for tank of 150gallon
cellpore log (to break fish waste into safe bioproduct)
glass rock in corner and huge driftwood ornament for baby discus, Panda Corys (6), Clown Loaches (11)
total species residing in community tank: about 37
have proven pairs and spawned several times (no litter survived) :(

Just wanted to share my experiences. Some folks have asked me so I decide to write it out again.

I do get algae if I don't use my TTO to clean glass. When I use TTO I get no algae for weeks or perhaps a month. It helps a lot to clear up bacteria and algae and watermites.

**Angie**

P.S. Use small mists of water-diluted bleach to dissolve buildup of algae and/or lessen the bacteria count (dissinfect) on a towel.

This is the tank shot I was trying to load but it was at 115 mb capacity (the limit is 85 kilobytes, yipes!).

Sorry folks, will be updating pictures shortly.

DARN, DARN, DARN, DARN ..... >:( These stupid cameras!! As simple as they are supposed to be, is the more difficult they are to work!!!! Shiiiish....

I'm calling in the photocalvary! LOL Okay, Jeanie, I know you have good photography skills, how far are you from me? Mench, you're nearby, wanna bring your camera since you're passing my way to Queens??? What about Frank from LI? Darn, it's either I get a movie camera and make small clips or get you folks addresses and send you a pix. ;D

Only kidding. More experiences will make me a professional photagrawfa! ;D

[Fishin dude]

F. g.
I have the same book by Degen.
He has pics of many domestic bred in that particular book.
The closest I see is the wild Royal Blue with reference to your photo.
Maybe a Red Turquoise.....I had one that looked identical from a breeder in Penang.
To my knowledge, the Cobalt was developed by the likes of Jack Wattley. :book:

Hi, Fishin Dude:

The photos did not clearly show well. I will be taking better photos of this Wild Cobalt soon.

From what I gather is that yes, you're right, Jack Wattley began the Cobalt series. But from what I've also gathered is that it was found in rivers in South America prior to JW's project!! [More will come later about this as I get more facts from S.A.]

The three Cobalts I got were from a local fish shop and the owner of that shop said that they were direct from the rivers thru his distributorship in S.A.. I have to take his word on it. But in the Degen book, I see on page 23 the picture you're referring to (Turquoise Blue). I have one that looks like it. But the one I try to capture is a bit different.

[Fishin dude]

Hi, Fishin Dude:

The photos did not clearly show well. I will be taking better photos of this Wild Cobalt soon.

From what I gather is that yes, you're right, Jack Wattley began the Cobalt series. But from what I've also gathered is that it was found in rivers in South America prior to JW's project!! [More will come later about this as I get more facts from S.A.]

The three Cobalts I got were from a local fish shop and the owner of that shop said that they were direct from the rivers thru his distributorship in S.A.. I have to take his word on it. But in the Degen book, I see on page 23 the picture you're referring to (Turquoise Blue). I have one that looks like it. But the one I try to capture is a bit different.




F. g.
Page 23 is the wild brown....the one on the cover. Must have used smoke and mirrors for that pic LOL.
Pg. 31 is the Royal Blue
If there is such a fish as a "wild cobalt" that is new to me.
Could you have the LFS owner post more info on this thread?? :computer2:

Hi again,

Page 23 of A Discus Reference by Bernd Degen is a Wild Cobalt and so is the photo on page 10 of the Wild Caught Discus by Bernd Degen. Two different books here. LOL

--angie--

[wildthing]

:-\ ???

Hi, Fishin Dude:

The photos did not clearly show well. I will be taking better photos of this Wild Cobalt soon.

From what I gather is that yes, you're right, Jack Wattley began the Cobalt series. But from what I've also gathered is that it was found in rivers in South America prior to JW's project!! [More will come later about this as I get more facts from S.A.]

The three Cobalts I got were from a local fish shop and the owner of that shop said that they were direct from the rivers thru his distributorship in S.A.. I have to take his word on it. But in the Degen book, I see on page 23 the picture you're referring to (Turquoise Blue). I have one that looks like it. But the one I try to capture is a bit different.



F. g.
Page 23 is the wild brown....the one on the cover. Must have used smoke and mirrors for that pic LOL.
Pg. 31 is the Royal Blue
If there is such a fish as a "wild cobalt" that is new to me.
Could you have the LFS owner post more info on this thread?? :computer2:


Hi Fishingdude:

I think you are right! I tried to contact the LFS manager who told me they were Wild Cobalts but she doesn't quite remember as she gets from two or more distributors. She gathered it came from Florida. ???

This one picture I show I see that people have similar photos of it but not quite the same colors. Someone described it as blueberry on an auction. The other two I have has a black circular ring to it like an outline of the discus. This too has an attribute of the Wild Blues (Wild Royal Blue/Wild Cobalt). So many names but so many variations as well.

Thanks for correcting me. --Angie--

P.S. I will ask the LFS manager to log in as a guest to explain.

Hi, David :sun:

[wildthing]

Angie...trippin' again?
LOL

...from what I can see in that dark picture that is ABSOLUTELY NOT a wild fish....
it looks like a common or garden variety tank bred Red Turquoise to me...a bit runted with a big eye....
I am sorry to say that your local lfs is full of crap if they are trying to sell it as a wild cobalt...there is NO SUCH THING....

Sadly most LFS are staffed with ignorant dipsticks who know next to nothing about the fish they are selling but know quite a bit about how to sell it....PT Barnum would be proud.

Also...Jack Wattley originally bred the solid Turquoise Discus...while some quite colorful fish are found in the wild it takes generations to make those colors show nicely, breed true & not fade out with the change of water between the river & our tanks.. in other words....Jack worked long & hard with selective breeding to produce his original turquoise discus & I think your opinion trivializes that huge effort & result and you are basicly mistaken..

As for the books you refer to...IMO there is a lot of second hand information in them that is basicly totally wrong, especially the Degen ones....the pictures are nice & that is pretty much all those books are good for....forget about the ID given in them...those books serve better as door stops than as information resources.
In one of those Degen books on wilds ( I don;t have it here in front of me) the same fish (a brown Discus I seem to recall) is shown twice in different sections of the book using the identical photo but just cropped a little differently ( I remember a blue background to the photos also) with 2 totally different explanations for its slight heckel bar...one saying 'it couldn't possibly be"...the other saying " it must be'....in other words a complete self contradiction, & because of the cropping I have to suppose it is a deliberate deception to pad out the book.
Maybe one of Degen's books on how to make canaries pink would be more useful?
Did you know that 'dear old' Herb Axlrod himself stated that the spots on red spotted discus were a disease...this is the level of ignorance those guys were dishing out back then....

Thank God for Simply that makes it possible to see through the sham & to get good information from people that are not trying to sell you something.

jmo

David




"you can fool some of the people all of the time, & all of the people some of the time"
" there is a sucker born every minute"

[Fishin dude]

Hey Wild t.
Don't "sugar coat" it dude. LOL
I got a couple wild fish this weekend that will blow your mind....ironic the discussion on wild caught cobalts.
I will try to post a pic as soon I get some quality pixels that will do the fish justice. :fish: :fish: :wave:

Thanks, Dave! ;D As you were explaining the different photos in those two books, I think I see what you're talking about! :-[ The lighting technique in capturing a true color on a fish can make a world of difference. And so can the fish itself (charmeleon or metamorphis). I see my fish change colors all the time. Not only during water changes but in feeding as well.

Here all along I thought I was coming off with a "rare" purchase. ;D

But you know, it's mine. I gotta look at it like that. Oh, well.

I believe JW is an amazing breeder. I don't second guess his work at all. I never had any of his fish, but I believe some of our fish may have come from his breeding quarters (like third, fourth, twentieth generation). ;D A lot of folks on this forum (such as yourself Dave) are great breeders too! I applaud many of you.

Fishindude: Dave didn't sugarcoat. Or maybe he did? 8)

--angie--

[wildthing]

Angie..thanks for not taking offence...I am not such a good breeder & have done nothing remarkable in that field........
Follow this simple rule with discus ...just as in life...
"If it looks or sounds too good to be true than it probably is!"

:)


Be well

David

:-\ ??? trippin again..your too much David. ;D ;D

[jim_shedden]

:thumbsup: David
I have some wilds and feel that I am getting fairly knowledgeable about them. But when there is something that I don't understand and David provides an answer, I feel I can take it to the bank.

Frygirl: Can you get a better pic? I would like to take a look at your fish and the "Blue Peruvian" in the other post. It would be interesting.
Jim

[fishfarm]

Hi All, David is correct. Wattley is "the man" and it took him years to develope his famous strain of discus, You should see how the Asian breeders crowd around him when he goes to shows over there. Bing Seto developed the cobalt discus in the late 70's crossing Wattley's fish with wild fish.
Degan is as *** and knows nothing about discus. I spent 3 days with him in Penang, that was enough for me! Axelrod is a publisher and not a fish person, enough said.
I import wilds and am not any kind of expert, The Peru blues caught me off guard and I thought someone had released some domestic blues into the Nanay that had crossed with the greens in the river. All the fish in the Nanay are introduced as it is not a s natural discus habitat. Dick saw them and thought they were just real blue wilds. Who knows? Lee has them now so well see it they are a pair and breed some blue babies. Ain't the forums great! Ken

[Martin_HONGKONG]

To many of us that keep wild discus, we have a passion to keep the terminology right. They are only, blue(Royal blue), green (RSG, Royal Green), brown (alenquer,), heckels (blue face, brown, red based, yellow, painted heckels) and their hybirds such as I'ca, Maderia.
Lately we saw pictures of 2 specimens of wild caught Snake skin.

The rest are domestics, such as blue diamond, red angel etc. The name cobalt implies a domestic fish and may cause a lot of debt. The pic here shows a RSG with lots and lots of blue which is rare, but with very little amount of spots. It suggest to me, it is either the result of inbred from many generations or a tank rised individual.

When I have questions on wilds discus, rays or pleco. I would ask David over the phone or PM him! I am sure David have seem more discus that I would imagine.

Martin

Wow.

Hi All:

Now that Ken has mentioned about someone may have dumped a few domestic-made blues into the rivers, that draws back some memory I had on hearing about that. It was way back maybe in the 70's when I heard news of someone dumping fish into the rivers of S.A. ???

But in any case, here is a not-so-elaborate photo of the fish in question. I refer it now as a cobalt/blueberry mix. :D

--Angie--

Ken: All is well with two Wild Peruvian Greens! Soon you will see photos of them. Thanks for the info. ;D

The camera I've used is the DigiCam that comes along with the PC. I hope you can see better details of the photos.

This so-called "Wild Cobalt" is a female. She has a distinctive marking around her. It's a dark circle that outlines her shape. It shows slightly (as she didn't stay still) near her tail end and cauldal areas. She spawned about two months ago with Ken's Wild Peruvian Green. :D Unfortunately, my Clown Loaches and Panda Corys ate them! :(

--angie--

This photo is the picture of a Cobalt (according to the books and to many people on the forum and auction sites). Notice that this one has very little striation shown (it's either faded or none at all). The striation is a deep rich blue/violet tone that is only shown when fish is (i guess) stressed. But usually he is powdery blue with violet tones. [I hate to say it, I thought this is a Violet Reflection and it may be but ???]. Thanks for looking. --Angie--

[Fishin dude]

Bing Seto developed the cobalt discus in the late 70's crossing Wattley's fish with wild fish.
The Peru blues caught me off guard and I thought someone had released some domestic blues into the Nanay that had crossed with the greens in the river. All the fish in the Nanay are introduced as it is not a s natural discus habitat. Dick saw them and thought they were just real blue wilds. Ken


Frygirl:that draws back some memory I had on hearing about that. It was way back maybe in the 70's when I heard news of someone dumping fish into the rivers of S.A.

If the cobalt was being developed in the 70's, would someone ship to the Nanay River to just let it go and breed?? :bomb:...I think not.
All the boxes of fish that were freed were wild.....the plane was overweight, so bye bye to 40 to 70 boxes. :wave:

[wildthing]

It used to be cheaper to ship fish out of Brazil via Peru, hence why the original Green discus fish were in Peru to 'escape' in the first place..I don;t know about any planes, I heard a boat capsized but I guess it is already another mythical event.
. The a-hole that originally had the " accident' was a low-life called Bustamente, who ripped off just about everyone at one time or another & is now persona non grata in the fish world, except for a very few people that don;t know their history..... These days he would probably be prosecuted by Brazilian authorities for biopiracy.

Quite a while ago Jack Wattley wrote an article for Diskus Brief. In it he described releasing some of his domestic Discus into a pond in Northern S.America, ( I have a feeling it was Guyana but I cannot recall) In the arrticle JW joked about how if you ever found a blue discus in the Amazon it was probably from him...much later on he denied that he had done that but there it is in black & white in his own hand. It must also be said that back then, in the 70's, there were not the concerns that there are these days about introducing non-native species into new places. 30 years is plenty of time to pollute the gene pool.

All the genes & by extension all the color variants that are found in domestic fish originated with wilds ( obviously)...so the wild population has the genetic potential for anything that we have created ( & maybe more) , and given the population of discus in the wild it should be no surprise at all to ( rarely) find a naturally occuring wild fish that demonstrates recessive gene combinations such as snakeskin or blue or fire-engine red or whatever we have bred in our tanks.
tens of thousands of square miles of Amazonia are still unexplored, so that gives quite a lot of space for Nature to work with the law of averages. We should expect maybe to see more "domestics" appearing in the wild

[jules]

New tank looks excellent Angie; along with the new inhabitants. :fish:

The Curiperas from Oliver are beautiful.

I can see the green in your Striated Blue- nice colouring. It would be interesting to see what appearance her fry would take.

all lookin good 8)

Julie

[Martin_HONGKONG]

David,

It was Diskus Brief, volume 1, 1994 Issue IV page 6-7.

In brief, 24 pcs of 4 cm Coerulea Turquoise were taken to an enclosed stream at Paramaribo in Suriname with a surface area approximately 100m x 60m. Mr Wattley, did not say rather if these group of discus were established in that area.

Mr Wattley also mentioned that a Dutchman had introduced the Cardinal tetra into swamp areas of Suriname with positive results.

Martin

[fishfarm]

Both of my Peruvian supplies now list blue discus on their price list. This is a recent addition within the past few months, all come from the Rio Nanay. Since all the discus there are not a natural population we can only speculate where blue fish suddenly came from. Peru aquarium told me they had 10 boxes in stock so there's quite a few being collected. The fish are obviously wild collected as they have bite marks and defects common to wild fish. They are beautiful and I'd be interested to see if they throw any blue fry or just greens when they spawn. Some have a few red spots, but nothing like a TEFE.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I remember that story about the 'ponds' in Suriname that Jack Wattley was populating with juvenile Coerulia (really nice Blue Turqs) Discus.

I'll have to dig up additional info, but later it was found that 3 such ponds existed and that Marc Weiss raided them? Could just be urban legend. OK, I'm kidding about the MW part. Caused quite a stir in the Discus community back then.

Hi Ken:

I've got to let you know that you sold me one of the "Wild Peruvian Blues" (of the two WPG). I don't know if you can see the picture from the photos attached. But one of them (when I first got it last December) has completely turned to a Blue/Green as of the last two months. This is the one (that is a male) and went after my Wild Royal Blue (or Cobalt).

Also, when I got my Wilds inspected at JFK, the U.S. Wildlife has a list that refers the Discus Symphsodon as "Blue Discus". The list does not recognize any other colors of Discus. LOL If I didn't read David's posting re: the dumping of Blue fish in the rivers of S.A., I wouldn't have ever thought that the Wild Royal Blues/Wild Cobalts/Violet Reflections all possibly came from that batch of discus!

That was so illegal then to do such a thing (as it is now). But it turned out to be a success (as it seems today). Amazing. But it's not the same (meaning good results) as when one dumped their Snakehead fish into our Maryland Chesapeake Rivers a while back. That ain't cool at all. Stupid killer fish nearly ate all the crustaceans and was breeding like hell over there.
--Angie--

Hey, Jules: Thanks! Hard work for sure. I just cleaned out the tank yesterday (with a 3.5 pail bucket; cause my python is tooooo long for the force of water I have. :(). Took me four hours to break down tank and filters and sterilize it all! Stupid algae growth all of sudden on glass near filter. How's your Royal Blue/Cobalt doing? ;D **Angie**

Thanks folks for the info. Yes, Ken, this forum is awesome. Learn alot; bumpheads alot; and laugh till I drop off the chair.

[Fishin dude]

Yes, great info!
I may have some Jack Wattley "wilds" from what I have been reading here. Like Ken said, they are beautiful...the black trim is replaced by blue irridesence.
I have a nice collection of wild discus...these are a great addition. Ken, Thanks for letting me cherry pick! :fish: :fish:

Here's a better shot of the Wild Peruvian Green.

A Wild Collection. This has got to be my favorite photo of all. These guys wanted me to take picture. LOL They literally knew what it was that I wanted. ;D

There's a large Wild Brown that I got from Mike Heppner. He's on top. He's the size of a Compact Disc. There is also a Curipera that Mike gave me but this Curipera is mixed with a family of Wild Peruvian Green (aka Wild Peruvian Blue). They apparently change colors depending upon their moods and stress level. I don't necessary believe it's because of water conditions. But hey life always transforms and transfix our minds alike. Enjoy. --Angie--

Hey David, go easy when asking you about these two Degen books I've got. ;D I don't understand why the writers would write something that is found to be false by aquarists all around. I'm thinking as a new aquarist that I have a rare caught and I'm sure that I'm not alone. Heckels were found before JW's discovery of Solid Turquoise. But nonetheless there were Blue Discus in the rivers.

Then that means all who has Blue discus of any combination are a Jack Wattley (Solid Turquoise) or Bing Seto (Cobalt) discus, correct? (like the Wild Cobalts, Blue Diamonds, Violet Reflections, Blueberrrys, Wild Peruvian Blues and whatever else one calls their "blue" colored discus). Or the "Heckel Twist", as I see it? Heckels too have a strong similar feature to some of the WPGs (or WPBs) I have now.

**Angie**

P.S. This is much like the argument of the Curipera, Wild Brown and Wild Red subject. ;)

[wildthing]

I got the books also...a great big pile of them....I keep tripping over the damned things
:)
;D ;D
The JW release was in Suriname...not directly connected with the Amazon ....so I very much doubt that it had any lasting effect....many used to argue that the bright domestic colors , in the wild, would be lke the fish wearing an " eat me" neon sign & they wouldn't survive very long in water with any predators, and the bright turquoise/blue/coerulean colors acheived by selective tank breeding were from genes that should easily be re-absorbed into the wild population as recessives , even the PB color gene which seems to be a mutation. (Maybe Martin can input about that?)
Also...the very pretty " blue" peruvians and the other snakeskin types demonstrate nicely how anythng created in a hatchery can equally be created in the river...it is only a matter of probability factors...
:)

[ping]

Nice collection Angie :) Love the crowd ;D :) very nice discus too
How many in your tank and what size of the tank ?

Regards,
Ronny

Hi Ronny: :wave: Thanks! :sun:

All the details are on the first page of this subject. But since you asked ;D : 75-g - countless discus at this time. ;D They having fun most times. I watch the Wilds go flat on the floor swimming back and forth for a while and the Clown Loaches and Panda Corys goes along with them. ;D It's a sight to see.

Hope all is well with you. --Angie--

I got the books also...a great big pile of them....I keep tripping over the damned things
:)
;D ;D
The JW release was in Suriname...not directly connected with the Amazon ....so I very much doubt that it had any lasting effect....many used to argue that the bright domestic colors , in the wild, would be lke the fish wearing an " eat me" neon sign & they wouldn't survive very long in water with any predators, and the bright turquoise/blue/coerulean colors acheived by selective tank breeding were from genes that should easily be re-absorbed into the wild population as recessives , even the PB color gene which seems to be a mutation. (Maybe Martin can input about that?)
Also...the very pretty " blue" peruvians and the other snakeskin types demonstrate nicely how anythng created in a hatchery can equally be created in the river...it is only a matter of probability factors...
:)

Hi David: :wave:

I'm sorry, I don't take offense when someone corrects me and/or states their opinion. I just read that post of yours. LOL --Angie--

[wildthing]

fyi...I finally dug out the book...Degen...Discus catalogue/atlas
p105 , described as a wild cross & p29 described as a wild brown are obviously the idential photo cropped & with different descriptions....very very sloppy work IMO & to re-crop the same photo like that is IMO deliberatley deceitful & shows why these books cannot be trusted. They were not published for the sake of impartial academe...they were intended to make $$s

Angie....ultimately it is only opinions ....& you know what they say about those, especially in New York
;D
I get feisty sometimes on the forums so thankyou for your good grace...without the clues from body language misunderstandings are too easy on the internet.

DW
:)

David,

It was Diskus Brief, volume 1, 1994 Issue IV page 6-7.

In brief, 24 pcs of 4 cm Coerulea Turquoise were taken to an enclosed stream at Paramaribo in Suriname with a surface area approximately 100m x 60m. Mr Wattley, did not say rather if these group of discus were established in that area.

Mr Wattley also mentioned that a Dutchman had introduced the Cardinal tetra into swamp areas of Suriname with positive results.

Martin


Hi Martin and David:

Do either of you fellows have an extra / spare copy of that Diskus Brief magazine (with the article re: JW's cobalt creation) that you can send me? Or, can you send me a copy of that article (maybe you can fax it to me)?

David, I am beginning to "trip" over those two Degen books (as well). :book:

Thanks. **Angie**

[Tomsky]

Hi Angie,

as it seams you get into the digital art. But the books are for coffeetable in my opinion. The author is contradict himself at every second page. This cannot be helpfull to the reader. This forum is much better as thoose books.

Tomsky

Thanks Tomsky, but the reason why I'd like to get a copy is to cross reference and further analyze it. What I see is that there are such a thing called Wild Cobalts and some people are saying that they do reside in waters of Brazil and stretch out as far as Perú and Ecuador. [There is a great chance many discus mating and having frys with amazing colors (or strains)].

When I did a search for DiskusBrief, they posted on their website as "no longer available." It is impossible to order back issues.

**Angie**

[Wahter]

When I did a search for DiskusBrief, they posted on their website as "no longer available." It is impossible to order back issues.


What type of search did you do?

Check here: (it looks like back issues are available)

http://www.diskusdesign.net/

Curt's contact info is on the website, you can check with him on availability.

I'm curious where you are finding references to "Wild Colbalt" discus.

Funny, now I can't find the post! It was there a few days ago. I saw it on a posting. There was a posting which was current as of 2003 (December) that said "back issues no longer available."

I've noticed one thing, also. That you cannot direct link into the subscriptions (from their website); only "posters" had a direct link for ordering.

As much as folks state that these Degen books are "coffeetable magazines," I feel a bit different about it all. Degen made a book which included a few contributing scripts from JW himself. Although the pictures do (very much do) look similar and were given various titles, it's hard to discern the truth here.

Degen also included other names like Axelrod, Heckel (who indiscriminately chose to label the blue-faced Heckel) and a few more ICH scientists (however, as I've yet to find his name in any of Degen's books, I noticed so far JW is not mentioned and BS, too). These guys were involved way before JW and BS began their studies.

Only inquiring.

**Angie**

[fishfarm]

I spent time with Degan in Asia, He's an ***, knows nothing about discus and publishes those books just to make money. He even introduces his self as a "Famous" publisher. ;D

[Fishin dude]

I spent time with Degan in Asia, He's an ***, knows nothing about discus and publishes those books just to make money. He even introduces his self as a "Famous" publisher. ;D


LMAO :spank:

Oh, No! You guys are rough here.

:sun: Hi All, :wave:

Once again, I don't want to sound like a broken record here.

Let's look at the traits (personality) of Wilds. I thought I read a post somewhere in this subject where Wilds do things that domestic/tank-raised discus don't.

For example, Wilds will sweep the tank floor on its sides. This is their way of feeling happy and playing. Domestics (or tank-raised) discus do not exhibit this action.

Has anyone ever seen this before in their tank (or tanks)?

**Angie** 8)

[Fishin dude]

Oh, No! You guys are rough here.

:sun: Hi All, :wave:

Once again, I don't want to sound like a broken record here.

Let's look at the traits (personality) of Wilds. I thought I read a post somewhere in this subject where Wilds do things that domestic/tank-raised discus don't.

For example, Wilds will sweep the tank floor on its sides. This is their way of feeling happy and playing. Domestics (or tank-raised) discus do not exhibit this action.

Has anyone ever seen this before in their tank (or tanks)?

**Angie** 8)


Yes, When they are trying to escape my net.....Fish do not have the ability to "feel" happy or "play". The brain is pea sized and emotion is replaced by instinct...they can associate the human with food and the net usually causes flight.
If we were discussing whales or dolphins...another story.

[Wahter]

Fish do not have the ability to "feel" happy or "play". The brain is pea sized and emotion is replaced by instinct...they can associate the human with food and the net usually causes flight.

:bounce:

And if you leave a net in the tank long enough, they will overcome their fear of it.

Angie, don't you think there's a good possibility what you have is not a rare wild caught discus as you were told they were when you bought them? ;D ;D ;D

:fried:

[wildthing]

anthropomorphisation

???

???

[Fishin dude]

Angie,
Gotta give you credit for your research!
I think the term " turquoise " is part of the confusion.
Depending on light and angle it can look blue or green.
No mention of J.W. since it is a Euro book I suspect!
The pic could be interpreted as blue or green...looks more like my Green peruvian with ref. to head striation.
My Blue Peruvians have a "dusted Blue powder" effect and truly look light sky blue...you would have to see it in person to see what I mean....incredibly beautiful and probably one in one-thousand! :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:

[O]

Angie,

I got a similar looking fish from David Webber a few month ago. You can see it here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.phpboard=22;action=display;threadid=14550

IMO, it's a wild green.

O.

[Wahter]

Let me make sure I'm following you on this... Angie, you're saying this striated fish of yours (in the center):

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/Cobalt-Tomato_Red-Golden_Tangerine-Curipera.jpg

And this striated fish of yours (upper left):

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/Cobalt_the_2nd-Golden_Tangerine.jpg

Is the same as this wild fish from Degen's book?:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/Picture_from_Bernd_Degen_Wild_Caught_Discus_Book.j pg

The text says:

"Homebred specimens are also now available under the name Colbalt Blue"

Wouldn't that make a "wild colbalt" a misnomer then?

Of course the wild book wouldn't mention Jack Wattley - his turquoise fish is the work of selective crossing from wilds and thus creating a domestic (non-wild) strain. ;)

To quote "Whatever!"

No, Walter, it's not the same fish. The fish I have (both as you see and stated in your posting) are slightly different. One has a dark circle outlining the body. The other has a brilliant sheen appearance and is similar to a Red Turquoise discus but does not have the orange (pigeon) feature. It's literally a real blue and red.

The photo in which I shown from BD's book states that that photo is a "Wild Blue". He did say that some homebreeders have crossed this "Wild Blue" to create the numerous blues (Turqoise, etc.). He did NOT mention JW (Wattley) at all! I find this really odd, nor did he mention BS (Seto)!

I would think that if an author writes a book on facts that he should include references from the "network of sources". I get from his books that the rivers do interconnect where man cannot see, nor get into the thicket of forests that interconnects with the rivers, and that it is quite possible that these discus did mate and left deposits thru out S.A. (hence, the blue coloration of many of our fine discus).

I know this topic is a sticky fuss but it is relevant to me since I do own the so-called "cobalts" or "wild cobalts", or for many they see it as "royal blue", or "whatever" (as you stated).

I question the characteristics of Wilds. There are no species of animals that cannot coordinate for a small percentage of their time while surviving in the wilds or in captivity. And, just because the brains are literally less than .25 of a pea that does not necessarily mean they cannot hold information, or process physical coordination. ;)

Wilds do sweeping motions. My tank is barebottom and I see them often do this while the tank-raised domestics do not. ;)

I'm only inquiring so I appreciate you effort of researching what I've relayed. :)

Thanks, FishingDude! I enjoy the studies and would like to know more.

**Angie**

[Wahter]

Angie, When you get a chance, go to a discus breeder's hatchery and you'll see that plenty of domestic discus do the "up and down sweeping motions", particulary the hungry young fish. I bet they will follow you around too and gather at the top if you hold your hand at the top of the tank - believe it or not, my wilds and domestics both do that as well. After you go to a hatchery, check out the behavior of those discus, then come back we'll discuss the characteristics/ bahavior of wilds further.

I still don't see why you insist that a book focusing on wild discus would talk about a breeder who has specialized in selective domestic cross breeding. You might find this hard to believe, but I actually have some books on domestic discus which do not mention Jack Wattley's name either!! OMG!!!!! ;D ;D And I have books on domestic discus which do not cover the wild heckels, blues, greens, browns (not even a single photo!!!), nor do these books talk about the nitrogen cycle, pH, GH, Kh, TDS, etc... EGADS!!!

Okay, if it will make you happy, those are the nicest looking genuine wild colbalt discus I have ever seen - like you said, there must have been some earthquake in Brazil or Peru which allowed the original parent fish to swim around the Amazon tributaries (which were previously separate from one another), spawn and create those fish which your local fish store could import, having nature duplicate what man has done via controlled selective cross breeding, thus being extremely rare, and so rare in fact that their genetic structure can only be found in a book which does NOT mention Jack Wattley's name!!! That's the summary of this thread and no one can argue with that.

BUT your water looks too cloudy for my tastes. ;D ;D ;D

[Mr. Limpet]

Without trying to hurt anyones feelings, and turning the subject in a little diiferent direction, it is my understanding that the definition of a "Cobalt" discus, is a fish with a solid blue body, no striations on the body, but there are striations on the head and fins. From that, the fish was not correctly identified from the beggining. In my humble opinion, the fish pictured is a standard Turquoise and is not a wild. Paul.

Walter, I gather then your domestics do lay on their sides and sweep the floors? Well, my domestics don't do that!

I'm not disputing (at the moment) for the sake that my photos show "Wild Cobalts" or "Red Turquoises", or "Wild Blues." Just explaining how the misconstrued information was found. If you re-read my topic you will see that David (Wildthing) has carefully explained what and why.

I'm only replying to your inquiry and statement (as well as others). It may not have come out clear but one will need to read from page 1 again.

Yes, I know of many books published that has many errors. But these two that I have seem to be "sealing facts," when I now realize that it may not be true, or is true in some parts of the books. That's all.

And, in regards to dirty tank or "cloudy tank," you will need to look at the photos again to see how the reflection of the discus are apparent in all photos. They were being fed at the time of the photoshoot. (I keep my tank clean at my option). Also, I don't have a hyped camera. It's a slow-speed digi-cam from the PC (640x320 dpi).

Let it be be and let it walk walk. That's how I'm looking at it. I don't mean to mislead anyone in regards to this subject. So if anyone is, please re-read the topic to see how it was misconstrued from the getgo.

**angie**

Addendum (4.2.04): It is clear that the cobalt has no striations or has very very few striations. And it is solid blue.

Again, re-read topic from start to end. Progression here paid off, at least for me it has. :sun:

Pea sized brain would be overstating it, pinhead size might be more like it. The sweeping the bottom is what lots of discus do with a bare bottom tank when the light reflects a certain way, they think its more water. And as for the loaches playing, some may call that, eating slime coat.. ;D
Wahter, you are funny dude!!
Fishin dude, you were talking about the fish, right??? ;)

[Martin_HONGKONG]

here's the article

[Martin_HONGKONG]

2

[Martin_HONGKONG]

3

[Martin_HONGKONG]

discus brief

[Martin_HONGKONG]

discus brief

[Martin_HONGKONG]

discus brief

Thanks for the article, Martin! :thumbsup: I appreciate this very much.

**Angie**

[kalawai]

Gesh!!!
I thought Nano-reef people had to much time on their hands ;D

[kalawai]

No--its not a rare wild

[Fishin dude]

kalawai,

How old is that fish...just looking at eye to body ratio. :lickin:

[kalawai]

Still young---maybe 10 months? Not really sure about the age--I didn't ask.
I know she is a small runt---but she is cute and has a nice personality. This little fish--is the first to come up and feed from my hand. She is always in front of the tank looking for food or just to stare at me.
My other Discus in the tank are much larger then her.

[daveycrockett]

Frygirl, looks alot like my red turq.