WATER CHANGE CONUNDRUM

Hi All,

Looking into the water change question, I have found out some pretty interesting things. First I want to say that whatever works for you, 50% or 5%, is therefore the right way to do it. Since water conditions and situations vary so drastically, there can be no set or perfect way. That said, I talked at length to a local discus breeder that is in business sucessfully for 20 plus years. He has met and asked questions to the best breeders at the beginning of his breeding hobby/business, and learned all he could. We live on Long Island NY and have well water in most areas. His discus, which are breeding and raising spawns right in front of your eyes, have been raised for this long with the following methods. He feeds and makes his own beefheart food, uses frozen Hikari bloodworms, and tetra bits, NO live. His water change routine consists of changing as much water as removes the dirt from the bottom of the tanks (bare), about 5% per day! The water is drawn into a vat just before the cleaning, a mixture of warm and cold from the tap to keep the temp at 86 degrees, and only sodium thiosulfate is added because he has chlorine in the supply. Sponge filters are used, no carbon, and I have known him since at least 1980 and he has been doing it this way since then, and he has constantly breeding pairs that come from Wattley and asian stock. no 50% or 90% water changes, to him it shocks the discus too much. Interesting to think of, and I know not all water can be used this way. thoughts??

[M0oN]

Full grown discus aren't as heavily affected by nitrate, smaller ones won't grow to their full potential because it affects their appetite.

I say whatever keeps your nitrate's under 20 ppm is fine...

[fcdiscus]

Mark, I know you are speaking of Gil, and I do believe he does do one larger WC at least every week to 10 days. But I will agree, there is no arguing with his success. He also has a very good idea for how much to feed his fish, so as not to overfeed them. Frank

Hi Frank,

Yes I am talking about Gil, and he does have the experience to have it down to a science, so its not like a noob like me to be able to do it exactly the same way. He did tell me that he never changes more then is needed for cleaning, and the routine was the same for babies and adults, but maybe I misunderstood?

[M0oN]

Hi Frank,

Yes I am talking about Gil, and he does have the experience to have it down to a science, so its not like a noob like me to be able to do it exactly the same way. He did tell me that he never changes more then is needed for cleaning, and the routine was the same for babies and adults, but maybe I misunderstood?


Well, either way your best course of action is going to be to monitor your nitrate levels daily for a week or two both before and after water changes and figure out exactly how much you need to change daily to keep the levels under 20 ppm...

[fcdiscus]

Mark, I have not seen him in a couple of years now. Maybe he got lazy! ;) Frank

Hi Frank,

I guess he may have gotten lazy, and more expensive!!!! ;D But, the guy has forgotten more then I ever knew, and is very sucessful, hard to argue against excellence. Take care....

Mark

[Nightowl]

I believe Gil's been raising discus for 47 years, but who's counting? I have purchased some of the best discus I have ever owned from Gil Curtin. He is a bit high priced, but that's relative IMO.....some of his fish rate "priceless" in my book.
I'm going to ask him about his water change routine next time I see him...I know he keeps his tanks very clean. I believe his approach is to not have a pre-set amonut of water in mind that you have to change, but just enough each day, as stated, to siphon off debris and waste. His fish grow big and beautiful. Hi Mark, hi Frank... J.T.

Hiya Nightowl!

Was at the store a couple of times in the past week, didn't see ya. I thought Gil was in business/keeping discus for a longer time then 20 years, just wasn't sure so I played it conservative and erred on the side of using a lower number, still gets the point across I hope. I am sure he told me(it was just last week) that he only changes enough water to do the cleaning of the bottom of the tanks, and that is 5% or less daily, to quantify it. I am using his schedule now on my tanks, mainly because I just don't have the time with wife and family and living space (plus my wife would kill me for messing the house up, we just did so much work on it this past summer, hahaha) to devote my life to any more. So far for the past few weeks all seems great, the fish are healthy and happy, growing and eating like crazy, all water parameters are normal ( can't be better then normal) and bad readings (ammonia, nitrates, nitrites) are zero. I also discovered that the "nervous" discus problem has been solved by keeping some light on at all times, rather then the timer method of just on or off. When I used the timer they got very skittish and nervous when I was around, keeping a light on at all times makes them more relaxed and no jumpiness, works for me. Anyway, great to hear from you nightowl, hope your fish are well and still spawning. And for all the other members, I am just an average hobbyist, not a Jack Wattley wannabe. ;D

There are many factors to determine the amount of W/C of your tanks. Filtration plays an important role, next is the type of food and the frequency. Then the number and size of fish. Location of the tanks that allow pernetration of sunlight also plays a good part of water changes. I've known some old timers in Bay area only replace only eveporated water. Their tanks receive full sun everyday. You can hardly see the fish but their fish spawn and thrive under this condition. To conclude whatever the amount of water change. The main factor is to keep the parameters stable. What you do to keep the Nitrite, Nitrate, and ammonia in check is variable on each tank.
Jimmy.

[Dane]

The key to his success is cleaning the bottom daily, even though it may only be 5% of the tank water. Changing 50% of the tank water per day and not cleaning the bottom of the tank is pretty much useless imo. Take a small sample of bottom slime and have a look under a good microscope and it will make make perfect sense.

Dane and JimmyL,

You have both summed it up perfectly!! The rule of thumb is, there is NO rule of thumb. You have to clean the tank bottom each day no matter how minimal the water removed and replaced. And as JimmyL stated, factors such as feeding and bio-load play a major factor. I do feel that blindly changing water as a shotgun approach doesn't sound logical and is done only to atone for the sins of rank beginners who would do worse and so less worse is better. Make sense?? I know I am fixating on this but any and all discussion that creates dialogue among us has to be beneficial. Smack me down if I am wrong, I am, after all, a noob.

[Carol_Roberts]

For juvenile discus (not babies or adults)
I clean the bottom of the tank everyday.
I change about 50% of the water everyday.
I rinse the prefilter sponge everyday.
I wipe down the inside of the tank weekly.
I rinse the internal sponges and inside the filter box monthly.
My discus are very healthy everyday and never get sick.

[M0oN]

MSDiscus, if you're interested in how other breeders from around the world raise, breed and care for their fish you should consider purchasing "Exotic Discus Of The World" from http://www.discusfarm.us

It's got several different interviews with big time breeders who have invented some fairly recent strains where they describe everything from water changes to feeding regimen...

I would note, though, that most of them mention performing water changes 2 hours after each feeding with juvenille's.

I hope no one thinks I am criticizing
anyone for their discus care practices. I am interested in everyones habits and want to learn all the different ways to care for these special creatures.

[fcdiscus]

No Mark, not at all. It is what works for you that counts! Frank

Well Frank, I expect you to be reasonable!!!! ;D You are normal after all.

[Jeff]

Bill D. in Ohio does the same. What ever works for them.

[browneu]

I was going to say the same thing about Bill Deem. I purchased juveniles along with beef heart mix from him a month ago. At that time I asked if I needed to do daily water changes. He told me that he changes his water twice a week and doesn't change anymore than 25%. I have followed his advice and my discuss are growing very well. His feeding schedule is also contradictory of what people tend to post here. I guess, as with everything, there is no right or wrong method just what works for you. I have to say that they work for me since, the methods he told me are more of what I am used to in fish keeping.

[tom.s]

Bill feeds straight beef heart no mix, and he has one of the cleanest fish rooms I have been in. And I have been in alot over 20 years. Bills air is very slow to but it does a good job for him.
Tom

[ronrca]

;)
Thanks for the posts and the info! As mentioned, there is no right or wrong, just what works for the individual. Id like to also add that I bet these breeders have been doing this for a while and know what they are doing. That is the key! They know what they are doing! Given that, Id like to point out that when starting with discus, the learning part is the most important. Learning thru other peoples mistakes and experiences are good but nothing beats learning thru your own experience. Basicly, it comes down to Hey, I tried that and it didnt work or it did work because......... From my point of view, personal experience 'talks' louder than 'so and so' said so and they have been doing it for years but I dont really know why!

So, whats my point! Well,
- educate yourself about discus
- understand the princples
- experiment
- find out what works in your case

I would suggest following in order from top to bottom, not the other way around. Its been done from bottom to top already and many here can tell you the stories! ;)

To find out what's best for your fish is to set up a Canary Tank with culls. Before you do anything to your commuity tank. Try what's new on the Canary tank and observe. Wait for a couple of weeks and if your new technique behave what you have expected and the culls still live through the process. Then you can apply to your community tank. I have one set up for that purposes for over 20 years and still find something new to test out. Presently I'm trying out prunes mixed in food for constipated BD. Very often discus in the Canary tank are more vibrant and healthier than my regular tanks. I have many deformed culls grow into adulthood from that tank and became a foster parents for my breeding stock.
Jimmy

Thanks all!!,

I have learned more on this one post then readin g several discus books!! The main thing is new ideads came out and other ways of doing things are being aired. ronrca, I do agree with you that the beginner factor mitigates all the methods and practices discussed here. Better to err of the conservative side when new and learning. Thank you all again for adding to my rudimentory knowledge of this sometimes confusing subject. :)

Sincerely, Mark

[peter_griffin]

:D