Please Help me ASAP!

[engiskhan]

I've encountered my first big mistake in the hobby. I was so tired from work the last two days and do my usual 50% daily water change. When I came home today, my favorite discus was looking very lethargic and had his stress bars showing. A couple hours later he was lying on the bottom on his side!

I tested my water and found the ammonia levels to be above 1 ppm! I immediately took him out and put him in a 5 gallon bucket filled with aged water and covered it with a shirt. I then did a 50% water change and dumped in some amquel. After that, I took the discus from the bucket and put him back in the tank very gently and he's still lying on the bottom and breathing very rapidly. What more can I do? I put some salt in the tank but I'm so stressed and I need to know if anything else should be done for him.

Any help is appreciated!

[M0oN]

There's not a whole lot you can do without a cycled filter, perform more water changes until the levels are under .25 ppm and continue to do this every day until the filter catches up...

Unfortunately ammonia is a lot more toxic at high levels of temperature...

[engiskhan]

dang, I knew that ammonia was more toxic at higher PH, but the bad thing is that I've had my tank at 93 because I had a discus with hex and treated the whole tank...... ugh! I'm gonna have to lower my temp somehow.

[M0oN]

Perform 50% water changes with water about 10 degree's cooler every 3 hours until the temperature's at a desired level, the discus should handle it fine.

Keep up on water changes until the ammonia levels are low...I would strongly suggest looking for some BioSpira or a cycled sponge filter somewhere to help seed your filters or your fish will likely die...

Your ammonia levels must be peaking for the cycle at those high of readings in such a short time, which means they're going to get higher before they drop at which point nitrite is going to increase etc. etc...

[engiskhan]

What's odd is that this is an established tank. I haven't done anything different at all except I skipped two days' worth of water changes. Previously, ammonia and nitrite were at 0.

I had two discus spawn in the 55 on friday night so I went out on saturday and bought a tank divider from Petco. Also, I got a DI system on friday and have used that for my water.

Another thing... the ammonia was over 1.0 ppm, but nitrite was still at 0. I would think that if something didn't destroy my bio filter that I would show a little bit of nitrite.

[ReDtUrK.cOm]

hmmmm i think the biggest mistake was taking it out of the tank that just would have stressed it out even more, was it eatting before you took it out??? umm i think just keep a eye on him, sometimes it can take discus upto 3days untill they start swimming around and eatting and getting back 2 normal!

[engiskhan]

Yeah, I was thinking that it probably didn't help, but I was feeling pretty frantic and still do. My first thought was to get him out of there ASAP and into fresh water. Do you guys think I should get some bio spira? my lfs is open for another 40 minutes or so. could ammonia shoot up in a 55 from not changing water for two days time when I had a routine of changing 50% daily?

[April]

your metro would be a bit of the problem also..it taxes the bio a bit.
hope he pulls through ..
do you have any other sponges you could use from elsewhere??

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Get some Prime. It detoxifies ammonia. I always have on hand just in case.

Dan

[engiskhan]

well, I did the peroxide thing, changed the water, lowered temp a bit. at midnight I checked up on him and he was still lying on the bottom breathing rapidly. This morning he was dead... :'( what is frustrating is he was my favorite fish and had started spawning with another leopard in the tank. I was looking forward to some babies a few months down the road.

I still have seven fish left in the tank and for the most part they seem to be okay, but stressed. I can't figure out what happened. I did a 5 day metro treatment with the temp jacked up to 93 last week, but that shouldn't knock the bio filter out should it? I checked ammonia and nitrite just a bit ago and ammonia is still over 1 ppm with nitrites at 0. what the heck could have knocked my filter out? I am thinking of going and getting some bio spyra but if something is killing bacteria in that tank, that could be a waste of money and effort. anyone have any ideas?

I'm using amquel to neutralize the ammonia but I don't think this is much of a long term solution.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

You check to see if you have chlomines in your water.

dan

[engiskhan]

My city does use chloramine. I have used an r/o unit to filter and age the water in a 33 gallon rubbermaid. I have flushed my r/o at least twice a day to keep the membrane good. I don't currently have a chlorine tester but perhaps I should check into one. I added a d/i unit to my r/o last friday and I checked for ammonia (from the chloramine) and it tested at 0 out of the rubbermaid. Perhaps this doesn't mean I don't have chlorine? I also tested water in the bucket for hardness and it turned orange with one drop so it's still working. Does any of this mean I don't have chlorine in the water? I was changing water 50% daily and the fish were doing awesome until this incident. I can't figure out what the hell happened.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Most of the times when you're having problems and can't seem to pinpoint it, it's usually the water. Get some "Prime". It removes chorine, chlormines and ammonia. It also detoxifies nitrite and nitrate and provides slime coat.
If the rest of the fish seems fine then it's something else. If all seems sick then it's something in your water. Hard to tell.

dan

[jeep]

Beware, Prime and AmQuel will give false positive readings for ammonia. If you're using an RO unit, you should not have chlorine in your water, just the left-over ammonia from the chloramine bond. If you're using DI, you should not have ammonia in your water either. Unless, of course, your pre-filter, membrane and DI resin are all shot. Doubtful since your water is testing very soft...

When you added your DI, did you flush it thoroughly? Some DI resins will add toxic componants until completely flushed away. If this were the case, I'd think the rest of your fish would be at risk as well.

I would convert back to regular tap water and treat with Prime until you can determine the cause here. It could be water quality but I would think the rest of the fish would be affected as well.

Why were you treating with Metro? If Hex, are you sure is was hex and not something else? The death of your discus may be the result of an internal issue rather than water... While you want ammonia as close to zero as possible, 1ppm should not kill your fish...

[engiskhan]

New DI resins need to be flushed? that's the first time I've heard that. I just received the DI unit from Randal on friday and immediately added it to my r/o unit. Prior to that, I would have just a little ammonia in my holding barrel left over from chloramine. Now, I have 0 ammonia - I even tested it last night along with hardness (came out to 0).

As far as the hex goes, I'm pretty sure that's what it was. I had one fish that hadn't eaten in many days and had white feces. I raised the temp prior to the treatment and that itself made a difference. Now the fish is eating and back to his old self.

I noticed a few days ago that some of the fish were being more bashful than usual, but I figured that was just because I added that tank divider after the leopards had spawned. Now, I have two other fish that appear to be fairly stressed, but they currently don't look to be near death.

Is it possible that not flushing that DI unit added toxins to the water, stressing the fish and killing off bacteria?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hey Dude, do what jeep says and try to go back to tap water. Just age it overnight and add something to remove the chloramines. It won't hurt to try. You have to try to remember what you did differently before all of this happened. Stress can bring on hidden problems that you normally don't see. One problem can lead to another. Hex won't kill your fish quickly. It's usually a slow death with hex. I have a fish in a hospital tank now with hex for over a month and has not died. It hasn't eaten either. Just don't have the heart to cull it. Stay with you tap water for a while and do large water changes untill it passes. Add some salt to relieve stress. Make sure you redose the salt after a waterchange.

dan

[engiskhan]

Hey there Dan. thing is, I've used this r/o unit since late january. Ever since I got the fish, they've had daily water changes with reconstituted r/o water. The hex thing was just something another fish had that I treated for last week. I was just speculating that perhaps that killed my bio filters off. I use a V sponge and a hob filter. I've had 0 nitrite and 0 ammonia pretty much since I got the discus in there. Now, I have 0 nitrite and alot of ammonia - over 1 ppm. something killed my bio filter and I'm pretty sure I don't have chlorine running through the r/o. Heck, sometimes I'll put a squirt of amquel in just to be safe. Something killed off my bio and I don't have the cash to dump in bio spyra without knowing that it's going to fix the problem.

I've had the r/o for over two months and I just added the di unit a week ago. it's just one canister after the r/o that finishes off the last bit of ammonia that comes through.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Could it be the DI unit? I don't know. Change large volume of water till your sponges catches up. Sorry buddy. I wish there's something I can tell you.

Dan

[discus_nw]

I agree that perhaps there was another problem with the discus causing the death with the added stress especially since no other discus were affected.

What I don't understand is the post stating that moving the discus from the toxic water into fresh water was addding to the stress and it should have been left where it was. ???

Not a chance. You did the right thing at the time. :)

[RandalB]

Wow, Sorry to hear about the fish man!

I doubt it's the DI resin causing the problem, that's drinking water grade resin. It's ready for Human potable water right out of the bag. That's the same Type and batch that I use for my 54 Gallon Reef Tank and I've never flushed it prior to use.

It sounds like the Biofilter was killed off completely by something.

What's the tank like? BB or Substrate?
Did the fish show signs of Ammonia poisoning other than laying on the bottom? Burned Fins, Cloudy eyes, etc?
What about the other fish in the tank? Any problems there?

If it was a toxin, all the other fish would be goners too. Somthing Hit that Biofilter IMO. What dosage of metro did you use and where did you get it from?

RandalB

[engiskhan]

Hey there Randal. I didn't notice any burned fins on anyone else, but I noticed a change in behavior a few days ago. Some of them became somewhat timid when usually they all attacked food and would come to the top when I was in the room.

I used 500 grams of metro per 10 gallons and I got the metro from Jean.

I think that you were right when you said (on DAAH) that my PH may have crashed. I added the same amount of RO right after adding the DI unit and I may have needed more. Does adding a DI make the water alot softer?

Thanks for your help guys. You guys are da best!

[RandalB]

DI water has nothing in it at all as far as mineral content goes. It may have not been much of a change from your straight RO but coupled with a couple of days without w/c and enough bioload, you may have crashed it. That would explain the loss of the biofilter and the sudden damage to the fish, as the pH went back up with the waterchange.

Just a theory..

RandalB

[April]

fish getting skittish is a sure sign of your ph crashing. believe me..with my soft water ive seen it before. i have to add oyster shell and have lots of extra filters running and add something like kent ro right to keep mine from crashing. and if it does..it will keep on crashing till you add way more filtration as its not keeping up. our water is virtually ro water out of the tap.

[jeep]

When you added your DI, did you flush it thoroughly? Some DI resins will add toxic componants until completely flushed away.
Oops, sorry. I guess I didn't proof my comment. I meant to say CAN some DI resins add toxic compounds... More of a question than a statement. I know when I installed a DI, the water came out a very dark brown for about the first 10 gallons.

Your bio could be damaged, but since only one fish was affected, I still feel it was an isolated incident.

Did you say this was a Leopard?

[RandalB]

Jeep,
That's correct in some cases. The ones for drinking water don't need to be flushed. The industrial types do. Most ones for the aquarium are industrial.

RandalB

[engiskhan]

Yeah Jeep the one fish that died was a leopard. Some of the other fish seem to be more timid. I'm going to do some water changes over the weekend to get the PH back to normal since it's now below 6. I think Randal figured out what happened. My PH must have crashed when I skipped the two days' worth of water changes, killing my bio filter in the process.