Reef Tank compare to Discus

[iceskater]

Hi
This is probably in the wrong section or does not belong on the boards at all.

I have 2 discus tanks one is 60g and other is 55g. I have 16 discus that I have done real real well with. No illness. I am excellent at keeping up with testing WC's and maintance.

I have always wanted a saltwater reef tank. Yesterday at the LFS, I saw a small tank with all the equpment at a bargain price. Please tell me what would I be getting into. Give the pros and cons. Typical expense, daily routine etc. I think it is about a 10g. I would want some reef and perhaps 1-2 saltwater fish.

Anyone have both. A comparison to the daily routine with discus would be great.

Thanks,
Karen

[RandalB]

Ahh. Another topic I can get in on!

I have recently (6 months) set up 2x marine tanks, 1x FOLR (Fish only Live Rock) 12 Gallon Nano-Cube "Nemo" Tank for my daughter and a 54 Gallon Reef tank.

Saltwater is much easier than people say if you follow the rules. Just like discus, Most saltwater fish are temperature sensitive. Couple that with the fact that saltwater does not hold oxygen as well as fresh water and you find that the tanks don't hold as many fish as freshwater tanks do.

How 'bout some general pointers though and we can make a thread about it:

1) Keep the temp between 77-80F
2) Use a Good quality marine salt and keep the salinity between 1.020 and 1.025
3) Stock SLOWLY Ammonia and nitrite are much more lethal to marine organisims than fresh water
4) Consider using Live Rock/Sand to help with 3
5) Invest in a protien Skimmer, either in sump or hang on. Get a Decent one, not the $39.99 special. A lot of Marine Animals are also nitrate sensitive above 20 PPM, the skimmer will help with this. It also aerates the water.
6) Don't get more than 1 of a particular fish. With a few exceptions, Marine fish are very territorial when confronted with a fish of the same species OR Appearance.
7) Don't buy tons of expensive filters and equipment thinking this will make things go easier. It's not true. A decent Skimmer, some mechanical filtration and stable conditions are all you need. (sound like discus?)
8) Use RO water to make your salt mix. If you have phosphates, iron, or nitrate in your water you will have an algea factory if you don't. It just makes things much easier.

That's just a few tips, I'll be watching this thread, hopefully I can help out more. It's nice to have a tank that doesn't need daily W/C's LOL


RandalB

[iceskater]

Hi Randal
It is the nano cube that I saw. I wanted a few pieces of reef and 2 nemo's. Now what is involved??? What are you doing on your daughters? I am not sure what other questions I want to ask. I know I want to keep it real real simple and inexpensive.
The guy at the LFS said the nano cube comes with everything I would need? I am sure that is not completey true.

Karen

[iceskater]

Hi Randal,
just re read your post. I do not have 2 have 2 nemo's. I could do with 4 pieces of reef a nemo and something else real real colorful and small.

I am getting excited.....

Karen

[M0oN]

My ol' ladies father has been keeping reef tanks for a long long time now...longer then I am old.

I would highly recommend getting a refugium and live sand, a refugium allows you to cultivate endless supplies of food to the fish in the tank, you will never have to feed them again...they're pretty much all the rage these days.

I think the most expensive part of it is going to be the lighting...

[ReeferKimberly]

some good small fish and shrimps that you could accompany a nemo would be:

gumdrop goby

http://www.qualitymarineusa.com/fish/photo/gobies/2811.html

yellow watchman goby

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=228

banded coral shrimp

http://www.wadespage.com/WPB0211.shtml

royal dottyback

http://species.fishindex.com/photo_1390pseudochromis_paccagnellae_royal_dottyba ck.html

and numerous other speacies of inverts and fish to pick from. nanos are fun and not as hard as you may think. HTH
kimberly :-*

P.S. in time, some of these species may become too large for a 10 gallon but most stay pretty small and will do well in a smaller tank with just one other companion.

[iceskater]

Hi Kim
I like the last one. I really want vivid color in this tank. I am actually more excited about the reef then the fish. Discus will be my first love.

ALL:

I am assuming I will need to cycle the tank first??? What supplies will I need. Food? additives? etc....

Karen

[Fish_Fin-atic]

First, let me start by saying "been there, done that, wouldn't do it again!"

People often ask me about the reef tanks I used to keep, and would I recomend it to them...plain and simple - NO.

There are a number of reasons for this. Sure, the fish and inverts look pretty in a tank, but so do many freshwater fish, including Discus. The main difference is that Discus along with other FW fish can be bred in captivity, while 95% of all SW creatures cannot. This means that nearly all of the fish in your LFS come from the wild. Anyone who is familiar with wild fish capture will tell you that for every fish which makes it into your aquarium alive , 9 others will die. Often, the method of capture, and transportation of these fish is absolutely grotesque (there's tons of literature out there about it - read up). Coral reefs around the world are in very real trouble, and are on the decline at an alarming rate. For most of the fish in your tanks, the only thing they have to look forward to is death.

Now, the part about actually keeping these fish. It involves constant water changes as with Discus, but this time, you need to add salt to your RO water. Salt runs about $100 per bucket, and you'll go through a bucket in a month or two with proper water changes. RO units (as most Discus folks already know) are not cheap and will run about $200 - unless you want to use tap water which could be a huge problem due to unwanted substances in the water. Good protein skimmers run $200 or so, and then you'll need a water pump (for centuri models) @ about $100. You'll need large filters which will need regular maintanance, and reliable heaters (no Ebos) along with an oxygen supply (as mentioned earlier, SW holds less oxygen, so you'd be better off supplying it).

Now, a small SW tank is very difficult to maintain properly, as the parameters will fluxuate wildly as your fish excrete, and with fresh water changes. You will be much better off going with the largest tank you can get, this means more money on larger filters/heaters/salt/lights, etc. You will also need to invest in hydrometers, and SW test kits, etc. Your water will need to be free of certain elements such as Copper which will kill most inverts. You will need to top off evaporated water with fresh water as it evaporates in order to maintain a constant salinity level (fluxuations in salinity will stress fish and inverts and disease will follow) Oh, yeah, then there's the medications - $$$ !

If you want to keep anything, I'd recomend corrals. Properly cared for, corrals can be "propagated" by cutting small bits off of them, and hoping that these bits grow larger (there are websites describing this in detail). If you choose to go the corral route, you will need live rocks (which run about $8/pound depending where it's from and how well cured it is) For my 65 gallon, I used 100 pounds of rock, and it was about 1/2 full of rock. You will also need supplements such as Calcium, iodine, etc - depending on what your water is like, and what kind of corrals you have (soft/hard/species). You will also need specialized lights such as Metal Halides (my MH ballast/light cost me $300 and I built it myself) or you will need a few special spectrum flurescents which will run about $50 a pop and will need to be replaced about every 6 months if you want to do it right.

You may one day find that your tank is infested with Bristleworms - a disgusting prickly worm with a nasty bite which is almost unavoidable when buying wild live rock. They may start eating your corrals, or hastling the fish. You may have a disease outbreak, or a fish might die somewhere in the rocks, and you will know it when the tank crashes (due to sudden poor water quality), or you may one day find your tank overrun by hair algae to the point where it has to be stripped down, cleaned out, and started over. Trust me - there's nothing quite like disassembling a large reef setup! Watch out for the salt water touching ANYTHING! Eventually the salt will rot out your wiring/canopy/wood or metal stand/floors around the tank or carpet as the case may be. Then one day, you'll find that the pretty fish colours aren't worth the effort, and you'll stop doing WC's and they'll die, or you'll give them away to another well-meaning individual, and they'll eventually do the deed for you. Either way, eventually, everything in your SW tank will die without having a chance to breed, without being able to eat the food that they would normally eat in the wild (a lot of the prettiest fish feed on corrals), and their entire lives will have been spent inside of a relatively tiny tank instead of the ocean, and many of them will die with the memory of their ocean home being destroyed by cyanide or bleach, or dynamite!!!! Through no fault of their own, simply because of their pretty colours, they will have spent most of their lives in captivity for the petty amusement of their keeper, and for no other reason.

I am very guilty of keeping these fish/corrals myself, and although I was very successful at keeping them, they all did eventually die, and I still have their blood on my hands. I can't do anything about my stupid decision to keep them, except to tell others about it, and hope that at least one or two people listen, and actually hear what I'm saying. I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings (those who currently own SW tanks) but more likely than not, you too will one day come to the same realization that I have. All I'm saying is read up, get the facts, do some thinking, and if you still want the tank, then go for it, but know what it is that you're getting into, both financially and ethically.

Thanks for listening to my rant,
Paul.

[slicksta]

Paul
so.....should I take that as a nay?

only kidding....I agree....i'ts not worth what there doing to the world....

[Fish_Fin-atic]

Amen Slicksta, amen. ;D

[iceskater]

Paul,
I am sitting here speechless. Not really what I wanted to hear but have to admit it is something to think about.

Thanks for your input.

Karen

[ReeferKimberly]

SALT - not $100 a bucket, more like $40-$50

you do not have to use expensive metal halides, power compacts work just as well and are less expensive

bristleworms - can be controlled by six-line wrasses and arrow crabs, and even coral banded shrimp, or traps. there is also a hypersaline solution you can dip the rock in (something like 3X the amount of salt and the worms will come out).

saltwater tanks do not need constant water changes like discus. you are not suppost to have many fish in the first place and unless you start off wrong, you only need to clean it about once every 3 weeks to a month.

many clownfish are bred in captivity and thats what she was interested in in the first place.

colt corals can be propagated very easily and are rarely collected from the wild for the simple reason as it is not nessecary.

for oxygen you can get a good pump and long airstone running you about $50 but it's worth it b/c the water agitation on the surface aireates it.

I think it is wrong to completely trash everything about saltwater for someone new. it can be trouble or if done right, it can be amazing. instead of trashing it completely, how about giving her advice as to how to do it right from the beggining so she wont have some of the problems you mentioned. how about letting her find out just how fun it can be instead of just taking away the idea completely.

i love my reef tanks and they are even giving discus a run for their money.

sorry if i sounded mean but that post pulled my strings.
kimberly

[ReeferKimberly]

one more thing. I love the fact thats it's not ok to take fish from the ocean but it's completely ok to remove discus from the amazon.

[Nightowl]

Now THIS is a lively thread!!! I work at a large LFS, I am very proud to say,and half the store is saltwater.Many times I am helping customers and I tell them"I am not a proponent of keeping sw tanks/reefs because of the damage done to their habitat when collected". They look at me in a puzzled way and reply"I'll stick to my freshwater tanks".
I also want to add that I believe most of the saltwater creatures we sell perish in the first 6 months that people have them, if not sooner.

But then there will be a day when 2 or 3 customers bring in pictures of their thriving reef tanks, or saltwater tanks and I realize that there are many that give them the care they deserve.
So, what do I do? I ask myself if its any worse that people kill small Arrowanas or large triggerfish, I ask myself if I should feel guilty selling nice looking goldfish as"feeders" when so few fish really need live food. I wonder if what I heard about global warming and the death of the great barrier reef within 40 or 50 years means we SHOULD be learning about and keeping reef tanks. And I often wonder what I would be doing if this whole realm of fishkeeping didn't exist.

Haven't really come up with any answers...... J.T.

[RandalB]

Wow, Someone sure had a bad reef experience! Fortunately, Karen seems to be looking more to FOLR- Fish Only, Live rock. Much simpler and not as difficult. I do have a couple of comments on fish's post though:



There are a number of reasons for this. Sure, the fish and inverts look pretty in a tank, but so do many freshwater fish, including Discus. The main difference is that Discus along with other FW fish can be bred in captivity, while 95% of all SW creatures cannot. This means that nearly all of the fish in your LFS come from the wild. Anyone who is familiar with wild fish capture will tell you that for every fish which makes it into your aquarium alive , 9 others will die. Often, the method of capture, and transportation of these fish is absolutely grotesque (there's tons of literature out there about it - read up). Coral reefs around the world are in very real trouble, and are on the decline at an alarming rate. For most of the fish in your tanks, the only thing they have to look forward to is death.
>> So, like me, you buy aquacultured fish. The False Perc's (AKA "Nemo") can be found tank raised just about everywhere. Have you ever seen the conditions that discus are shipped in when imported? As bad if not worse than the salt water stuff. Same with Cardinals, lots or Cories, Pleco's and other fish. Great Advances are being made in aquaculturing marine animals, so stick to them. Most are pretty spectacular and there is no impact on the wild.


Now, the part about actually keeping these fish. It involves constant water changes as with Discus, but this time, you need to add salt to your RO water. Salt runs about $100 per bucket, and you'll go through a bucket in a month or two with proper water changes. RO units (as most Discus folks already know) are not cheap and will run about $200 - unless you want to use tap water which could be a huge problem due to unwanted substances in the water.
>> Now I really take issue with this one. First off, You don't need to do 50-75% daily W/C's in a marine tank. As a matter of fact you shouldn't. Everything I've read so far indicates 20-30% once per week is more than enough. In her 12 Gallon Nano, Karen will be changing about 3 gallons at the MOST per week. I do 5 Gallons in mine, just because it's easier for me to mix the water in a 5 gallon pail. My daughter's tank Raised Psudochromis, Nemo and Marlin are doing great with 5 gallons every two weeks. So Karen can buy 3-5 gallons of RO water at the local store for $1.50-$2.50 and do her water changes without an RO unit at home. She can also use her bucket of salt ($35.00 at the local Petco today BTW) that's good for 150 Gallons of water to do W/C's for almost a year. Finally, who says an RO unit is $200? Maybe I should raise my prices.....

Good protein skimmers run $200 or so, and then you'll need a water pump (for centuri models) @ about $100.
Sea Clone 100- $59.99 on Ebay,works like a charm and has the pump in the box. I have to dump the cup on mine Daily it's working so well. It will also fit the nano with a little modification..

You'll need large filters which will need regular maintanance, and reliable heaters (no Ebos) along with an oxygen supply (as mentioned earlier, SW holds less oxygen, so you'd be better off supplying it).

Actually, most reefers are getting away from the larger more complex filters like wet/dry types. Like I mentioned above, good mechanical filtration, live Rock and a skimmer take care of the filtration needs. The Nano already has the mechanical filter built in. The Oxygen is added to the water by the skimmer. There are plenty of good heaters on the market..

Now, a small SW tank is very difficult to maintain properly, as the parameters will fluxuate wildly as your fish excrete, and with fresh water changes.
Valid point, but as she's considering a small tank with a small fish load. With good husbandry, she won't have any more problems than I did.


You will be much better off going with the largest tank you can get, this means more money on larger filters/heaters/salt/lights, etc.
Much better off doesn't necessarily mean absolutely HAVE to. It's a little more work but It can be easily done.

You will also need to invest in hydrometers, and SW test kits, etc. Your water will need to be free of certain elements such as Copper which will kill most inverts. You will need to top off evaporated water with fresh water as it evaporates in order to maintain a constant salinity level (fluxuations in salinity will stress fish and inverts and disease will follow)
Do enough w/c's and you don't need to worry about topping off...

Oh, yeah, then there's the medications - $$$ !
Get all your fish from the same place and don't worry so much. Your Local Fish Store will keep their fish at low salinity. This will kill off most of the nasties. It's just like keeping discus, you need to QT if not getting all your livestock from the same place.

If you want to keep anything, I'd recomend corrals. Properly cared for, corrals can be "propagated" by cutting small bits off of them, and hoping that these bits grow larger (there are websites describing this in detail). If you choose to go the corral route, you will need live rocks (which run about $8/pound depending where it's from and how well cured it is) For my 65 gallon, I used 100 pounds of rock, and it was about 1/2 full of rock. You will also need supplements such as Calcium, iodine, etc - depending on what your water is like, and what kind of corrals you have (soft/hard/species). You will also need specialized lights such as Metal Halides (my MH ballast/light cost me $300 and I built it myself) or you will need a few special spectrum flurescents which will run about $50 a pop and will need to be replaced about every 6 months if you want to do it right.
>>The Nano comes with a 23 Watt PC hood which is enough for some soft corals. You should see the awesome colt coral I have in my daughter's tank. It's doing great! You can also get Live Rock cheaper than $8-10 per lb. Contact your local Salt Water aquarium society and ask if anyone has 10#'s to sell. I got mine locally, Cured, for $4.00 per lb and it's great.

You may one day find that your tank is infested with Bristleworms - a disgusting prickly worm with a nasty bite which is almost unavoidable when buying wild live rock. They may start eating your corrals, or hastling the fish.
Psudochromis love Bristleworms.... and there are plenty of traps on the market that will take care of them too..

You may have a disease outbreak, or a fish might die somewhere in the rocks, and you will know it when the tank crashes (due to sudden poor water quality), or you may one day find your tank overrun by hair algae to the point where it has to be stripped down, cleaned out, and started over.
Or you may go outside and get struck by lightning.... Jeez man! all these things CAN happen but who says they will? You sound like all the people who told me to stay away from discus...[b]

Trust me - there's nothing quite like disassembling a large reef setup! Watch out for the salt water touching ANYTHING! Eventually the salt will rot out your wiring/canopy/wood or metal stand/floors around the tank or carpet as the case may be.
[b] So wipe up spills promptly and clean the wires to avoid salt creep...


Then one day, you'll find that the pretty fish colours aren't worth the effort, and you'll stop doing WC's and they'll die, or you'll give them away to another well-meaning individual, and they'll eventually do the deed for you. Either way, eventually, everything in your SW tank will die without having a chance to breed, without being able to eat the food that they would normally eat in the wild (a lot of the prettiest fish feed on corrals), and their entire lives will have been spent inside of a relatively tiny tank instead of the ocean, and many of them will die with the memory of their ocean home being destroyed by cyanide or bleach, or dynamite!!!! Through no fault of their own, simply because of their pretty colours, they will have spent most of their lives in captivity for the petty amusement of their keeper, and for no other reason.
Like I said above, get TANK RAISED FISH. Add FRAGGED CORALS to the list, and AQUACULTURED LIVE ROCK fills it out. I do agree that what's going on with the reefs in the world is pretty tragic, the aquacultured livestock is available and costs about the same.

I am very guilty of keeping these fish/corrals myself, and although I was very successful at keeping them, they all did eventually die, and I still have their blood on my hands. I can't do anything about my stupid decision to keep them, except to tell others about it, and hope that at least one or two people listen, and actually hear what I'm saying. I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings (those who currently own SW tanks) but more likely than not, you too will one day come to the same realization that I have. All I'm saying is read up, get the facts, do some thinking, and if you still want the tank, then go for it, but know what it is that you're getting into, both financially and ethically.

No offense taken on my part Paul, but you are definately barking up the wrong tree. The Lady is asking for advice. You could have easily given the advice about aquacultured livestock and the DIY/Cheaper methods of keeping marine animals rather than doing all that typing. You sound like the old time aquarists in my local club after I mentioned my interest in starting up with discus: "They'll all die" "They'll all get sick" "you can't get them to breed or keep them without expensive equipment" "you need to keep them at pH 6.8 or they'll die" Ad Naseum. Bottom line, you CAN keep Discus and marine fish without spending tons of $$ or impacting the environment. The ethics involved are the same as purchasing discus from a breeder or LFS. There are plenty of neat marine fish being bred in captivity.

I hope I don't sound too harsh here, that was not my intent.
RandalB

[M0oN]

Ahem, on smaller tanks, 30 gallons and under, all you need is a refugium and some good lighting with live sand and critters living in the refugium, marine sea weed etc...

Elaborate filter systems are becomming a non issue in the marine world, refugium's are entirely self reliant and will not only act as biological media in your tank but will also supply a source of food to fish.

[RandalB]

Karen,

Here's what I have Financially in my Daughter's "Nemo" Cube:

JBJ 12Gallon Nano Cube: $100

20Lbs Live Sand: $20.00

5 Lbs Live Rock: $20.00

5 Lbs Base Rock: $8.00 (From Local Garden Shop..)

Salt Mix: 150 Gallon Mix in Bucket: $35.00

Tronic 50W Heater: $15.00

Nemo and Marlin (Tank Raised Ocellaris Clowns..): $25.00

Diadiem Psudochromis (AKA "Eager") $10.00

Assorted Nessarius and Astrea Snails: $15.00

Assorted Hermits: $6.00 ($0.50 each)

Emerald Crab: $Free from local aquarist ($7.50 or so retail)

Total: $261.50

My 4 Year old daughter learning about marine life and being the only kid in her playschool class who knows what a copepod (Much Less how to pronounce it) is while her pals are drooling over TV-Hyped name branded plastic crap: PRICELESS

Madeline has already had Various Freshwater tanks in her room but she has had the most interest in the Nanocube. Marine stuff is much more interesting.


Karen, in closing, Give it a shot. Do some reading keep asking questions and go for it. No need to be elaborate. Learn about what needs to be done, gain experience and be brave. Marine fish are easier than Discus.

Feel Free to Give me an IM, I'd be happy to talk to you on the phone about the whole project. I also have some misc parts you might want for the cost of shipping them to you..

RandalB

[paulmat]

As A keeper of both,I will say that taking care of my 150 discus as opposed to my 160 gal. Reef Tank is easier. The SW tank after a while becomes less work,but it demands a lot of attention.
I now always say theres not enough time in one mans life for a reef tank and discus ;D

Paul

[slicksta]

...a SW tank has become the topic of interest here at work over the past few weeks and many who keep fish now are researching the issue and deciding what to do.
I sent them this thread.
For me, I try to buy tank breed fish because they have a much greater chance of survival and less ecological impact..it makes me sick when I go to a LFS and see a 24" shark swimming in yes, a very large tank....but which is no where near the room a fish like that needs....but that's just me.
I too have considered SW...but am just not convinced yet.

RandalB......very nice post.... :thumbsup:

John

[iceskater]

Well I went to bed very very discouraged and woke this morning excited again. Thanks for the support Kim aand Randal

Randal thanks so much for your input and experience with the Nano Cube I am interested in. Could you post a picture of your daughter's so I could how it is set up. I appreciate your offer of assistance in IM and phone and will take you up on your offer. I plan on going back to the LFS this weekend and look over what they have along with the prices of the things you mentioned.

You did not mention a protein skimmer on your daughter's cube, does she have one? You also mentioned modifications, is that something I could do, I am now al that handy... ::)

Also while at the LFS, I will get the names of the coral/reef I like and perhaps you can assist me in how they would manage to get along with my set up.

And finally, NEWBIE QUESTION, what type of food do you put in reef tanks....

Thanks again,
Karen

[Larry Grenier]

I'm with Paul on this one, "there isn't enough time in a day to maintain discus tanks and reef tanks". There is alot of stuff which must be monitored and maintained within narrow limits to have a healthy and thriving reef tank.

I had a reef tank for about 2 years and was able to propogate and sell/trade several corals. The thing that bothered me about the hobby in general is the focus on hardware and what hardware to upgrade (read invest) next. If you really get the reef bug, plan on spending lots of money. Once you get your lights set-up, you discover that just $200 more and you'd have a much better setup.

Just my $.02

[Larry Grenier]

1) Discus = a beautiful and regal creature; focus on the fish.

2) Reef tank(a successful one) = a beautiful environment or piece of Mother Nature; focus on the tank.

I know, some folks have beautiful discus tanks... another subject.

Two very different focus'.

Another option is a really nice planted tank if you want 2) with less hassle. The fickle person that I am, I have 1) & 2) and don't miss a reef. ;D

ps. do a search on "amano aquarium"

[RandalB]

Karen:

"Randal thanks so much for your input and experience with the Nano Cube I am interested in. Could you post a picture of your daughter's so I could how it is set up. I appreciate your offer of assistance in IM and phone and will take you up on your offer. I plan on going back to the LFS this weekend and look over what they have along with the prices of the things you mentioned."
>> Where are you located? I may be able to get you some deals. I can definately get you the base rock if you want it.

You did not mention a protein skimmer on your daughter's cube, does she have one? You also mentioned modifications, is that something I could do, I am now al that handy...
>> I've seen mods that only require a little cutting on the canopy to fit the skimmer in. The one I'm doing requires a cut over the filter area and the insertion of the pump in the filter. Go to http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/ and do a search on: Nano Cube Mods. There's a ton of ideas. Now, The tank has done great up 'till now with no skimmer, you just have to do the w/c's.

Also while at the LFS, I will get the names of the coral/reef I like and perhaps you can assist me in how they would manage to get along with my set up.
>> Get the tank setup first w/ live sand and rock and take it from there. It will take you weeks to get the tank stocked up where you want it to be. It has to be done SLOWLY to avoid Ammonia spiking

And finally, NEWBIE QUESTION, what type of food do you put in reef tanks....
>> I use New Life Spectrum marine food, Ocean nutrition Flake (discus like this too!) and frozen Mysis. For the corals, they get DT's Phytoplankton every other day.


I'll try to get some pics posted in the next day or so.

RandalB

[RandalB]

I, "there isn't enough time in a day to maintain discus tanks and reef tanks".

I disagree. I have a Reef, A nano Reef, 35+ Discus, 2 dogs, a 4 Year old, a 2 year old , an old house that is being remodeled, a home business with people knocking my door down and a full time job and I have time for it all. Ok so I get about 4 hours of sleep a night. I'll get all the sleep I need when I'm dead.

Karen's not talking about a 350 Gallon Reef with SPS's and all the bells and whistles. She's talking about a FOLR with some softies maybe. It's not that much work. She can do it with less effort than a 55 gallon Discus tank.

We'll walk her through it and she should be fine.


This is a great Thread! Let's keep it going!
RandalB

[Larry Grenier]

Ok so I get about 4 hours of sleep a night. I'll get all the sleep I need when I'm dead.

LMAS RandalB

I just threw my $.02 for other readers of this thread to hear of my experience. I probably hung-out with hard-core reefers too much and got tired of talking about what they were going to spend theit next paycheck on.

Now I talk to hard-core Discus freaks too much. ;)

[ReeferKimberly]

the time consuming part of any reef tank is getting it established and algae under control. once that part is over it kinda takes care of itself in a sense. true you will need to add supplements for reef tanks and clean once in a while, but with the right balance of fish, corals, and clean up crew (i.e crabs, shrimp, snails) you can get a pretty good little eco system not requiring too much fussing.

[Discusgeo]

iceskater to get more answer's to all your question please go to Reef Central.
http://reefcentral.com
Click on the forums and Scroll to the bottom. Find the section for your local Reef Forums area and see what works for the folks in your area if there is a club there.
This one is for SoCal folks.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=50
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=80
Then go back to the main page an read.
Also I do own a 55 gallon Reef tank and all it has is 100lbs of live rock from Tonga, a Tunze Skimmer, 6in deep sand bed, alot of critters in the sand, PC lighting and a pair of Tomato Clowns.

[iceskater]

I am so overwhelmed right now. But it is excitement not nerves.

Randal, I live in Canoga Park, Ca. It is in southern california. For now I just have one question, you mentioned stocking the tank slowly, how would I introduce new things into the tank if I started to add later since I will have nothing to use as a QT tank?

I am going to check out everything this weekend at the LFS, but I will hold off on purchasing until the following weekend. I am not going to rush into things, so expect to hear alot from me..

This is what I have taken from what I have read so far, I will use RO water and salt, I will change 3 gallons a week, I get the salt from petco and ro water from LFS. I need live sand and live rock. I will decide on the reef/coral and fish over the weekend and see if they are compatible. I can feed ONF, great my discus eat that now as well. I will use other foods I am sure and will know which ones they are once I know what I stock the tank with. I need little critters to eat the leftovers.

Guess I have one last question for now. Do I need to cycle the tank, first? Is that what you mean when you said to add live sand and live rock first????

THANKS EVERYONE. I spent all day today, telling myself, If I listened to people about discus I would never have the 16 joys of my life. I am ready to tackle this challenge...Of course I will need some help. Glad to have this forum for assistance.

Karen

[Fish_Fin-atic]

Karen,
sorry if I came off a little strong with my opinions of sw tanks. As I started typing, my feelings on the subject started to get the best of me, and the reply deteriorated towards the end.

It took me three years of keeping a coral only tank, and a reef tank with fish and inverts, and plain fish tanks to come to the opinion which I now have of this hobby. I blindly got into the sw hobby after visiting LFS after LFS, and reading book upon book on the hobby, as well as web sites. I thought I had something beautiful and unique, but soon, questions and doubts started creeping in. After reading a very informative newspaper article on the subject of reef destruction one day, I started doing my own research, and before long, I gave up the hobby, and sold all my livestock off to a local jewellery store which had a large display tank and some of it went back to the LFS.

My experience of sw fishkeeping, (at that time when I was blissfully ignorant of the facts), was nothing short of spectacular. I kept Clown fish, which paired and layed eggs under a huge carpet Anemone, and I propagated dozens of corals and SW "plants". I grew my own artificial live rocks. I had fun making tank hoods, and wiring up my own ballasts, timers, wavemakers, etcetera. I managed to keep the tanks beautiful, and the fish healthy... but still to this day, I feel very strongly against the keeping of sw reef tanks.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep a sw tank, and try it out for yourself. Maybe you'll like it, and if you go about it the right way, you may have a very rewarding experience.

BTW, the prices I mentioned were in Canadian dollars, and were what I personaly paid. Knowing what I know now, I would be able to set up a functional tank with very minimal investment required, and I know I would be successful, but still I flat out refuse to do so.

Also, as was mentioned, wild Discus are also imported, and arrive in terrible conditions at times. SW fish however, are commonly heavily medicated so that they appear healthy sometimes for weeks on end, until they suddenly expire. It is worth the effort for importers to do this because of the profit from the sale of these fish. Furthermore, Discus, even wild ones, can be bred in captivity. This means that even though many will die on the way to their final destination, a single spawning pair will most likely be able to replace all the lost lives over the course of their breeding "careers". This also means that although an amateur Discus keeper may kill many fish in their initial learning curve, the lives of those fish killed are replaceable with new tank-raised stock. This cannot be said for most SW fish. Every fish killed by a newbie, is one less fish swimming in the oceans, and when the newbie buys another to replace it - there are now two less fish in the wild, and so on, and so on.

If you're planning on keeping tank-raised SW fish (of which only a few varieties exist) - more power to you, just do me a favour, and make sure that the fish are actually TANK RAISED. I won't go into detail, but I know of at least one LFS which advertised tank raised Clowns, which were actually wilds. He commanded a higher price for them because of this "tank-raised" label. I know this for a fact because I dated a girl who used to be an employee at this store, and because of such practises, she quit the store. I wouldn't be surprised if this were going on elsewhere too.

I'm going to stop now because I'm getting worked up again ::). Good luck in your SW tank venture, I wish you the best of luck, and have fun, but I won't be seeing you in the SW section of the LFS anytime soon, and that's a fact.

[iceskater]

Fish,
You feel very strong in your belief. I respect that. I did not expect to hear only positive input on this subject. I did ask for pro's and con's didn't I?

Thanks for posting.

Karen

[CanadianGuy]

Ok I have to jump in on this! I also have to say WAY TO GO RandalB!! you said everything that I would have in defense of marine tanks.

First of all I have 2 saltwater tanks. 1 40g Seahorse tank and a 20g nano.

My biggest issue with this thread is this statement:
If you're planning on keeping tank-raised SW fish (of which only a few varieties exist)
You need to do some reserach before you make such statements. Compared to freshwater fish there are relatively few sw fish that are aquacultured on a commercial scale...about 5 percent of over 800 traded marine aquarium fishes and shrimps...BUT there is more than enough variety for anyone to keep ANY size marine tank without having to resort to buying wc fish.
This is just a partial list of what's available.

Clownfish

False Percula Clownfish - Amphiprion ocellaris
Clark's Clownfish - Amphiprion clarkii
Tomato Clownfish - Amphiprion frenatus
Gold-Stripe Maroon Clownfish - Premnas biaculeatus
Cinnamon Clownfish - Amphiprion melanopus
Fire Clownfish - Amphiprion ephippium
Australian Clownfish - Amphiprion rubrocinctus
Orange Skunk Clownfish - Amphiprion sandaracinos
Pink Skunk Clownfish - Amphiprion periderion
Saddleback Clownfish - Amphiprion polymnus
True Percula Clownfish- Amphiprion percula
Sebae Anemonefish- Amphiprion sebae
Twoband Anemonefish- Amphiprion bicinctus
White-tipped Anemonefish- hybrid: Amphiprion sebae x Amphiprion polymnus


Dottybacks

Orchid Dottyback - Pseudochromis fridmani
Striped Dottyback - Pseudochromis sankeyi
Sunrise Dottyback - Pseudochromis flavivertex
Splendid Dottyback - Pseudochromis splendens
Neon Dottyback - Pseudochromis aldabraensis
Diadem Dottyback- Pseudochromis diadema
Lyretail Dottyback- Pseudochromis steenei
Golden Dottyback- Pseudochromis fuscus
Blue-Striped Dottyback- Pseudochromis springeri
Redhead Dottyback- Pseudochromis dilectus


Gobies

Neon Goby - Gobiosoma oceanops
Hybrid Cleaner Goby - Gobiosoma oceanops x Gobiosoma randalli
Yellowline Goby - Gobiosoma randalli
Goldline Goby - Gobiosoma louisae
Pink-Speckled Shrimpgoby- Cryptocentrus leptocephalus
Yellow Watchman Goby- Cryptocentrus cinctus
Luther’s Watchman Goby- Cryptocentrus lutheri
Red-Headed Goby- Elacatinus puncticulatus
Sharknose Goby- Gobiosoma evelynae


Blennies

Striped Poison-Fang Blenny- Meiacanthus grammistes
Green Canary Blenny- Meiacanthus tongaensis
Disco Blenny- Meiacanthus smithi
Canary Blenny- Meiacanthus oualanensis
Mozambique Fangblenny- Meiacanthus mossambicus
Bundoon Blenny- Meiacanthus bundoon
Forktail Blenny- Meiacanthus atrodorsalis
Blackline fangblenny- Meiacanthus nigrolineatus


Grammas

Royal Gramma- Gramma loreto
Blackcap Basslet- Gramma melacara


Cardinalfish

Banggai Cardinalfish- Pterapogon kauderni
Pajama Cardinalfish- Sphaeramia nematoptera


Angelfish

Half Moon Angelfish- Pomacanthus maculosus


Comets and Assessors

Yellow Assessor- Assessor flavissimus
Blue Assessor- Assessor macnelli
Marine Betta- Calloplesiops altivelis


Seahorses

Hippocampus sp. - several different species


Jacks

Pilotfish- Gnathanodon speciosus


Snappers

Emporer snapper- Lutjanus sebae


Mobile Invertebrates

Bubble-Tipped Anemone- Entacmaea quadricolor
Minature Carpet Anemone- Stichodactyla tapetum
Red Waratah Anemone- Actinia tenebrosa
Queen Conch- Strombus gigas
Fighting Conch- Strombus alatus
Peppermint shrimp- Lysmata wurdemanni
Assorted Snails
Upsidedown Jellyfish- Cassiopea frondosa

Like I stated earlier this is just a partial list of aquacultured fish that are available today. I also want to say that I completely disagree with the removal of marine fish from the wild. I personally would not purchase a wild caught fish unless it were to further a cb breeding program.

I think it's horrible to try and scare away someone who's interested in this wonderful hobby. I think it would have been far more benificial to make her aware of the issues surrounding the capture of wc fish and what it is doing to our oceans and let her come to her own conclusion. If you are made aware of everything involved you can make the proper educated decisions.


just do me a favour, and make sure that the fish are actually TANK RAISED. I won't go into detail, but I know of at least one LFS which advertised tank raised Clowns, which were actually wilds
You shouldn't be buying fish from a store that claims to have cb fish if they can't prove it. Any decent LFS will be glad to prove to you where thier fish came from.

Karen,
As far as setting up your tank goes...yes you need to cycle the tank just like a freshwater tank. The time it take depends on what you put in it. For a FOWLR setup like you want, you will need to get some Live Rock. You can get LR that is cured or uncured. Uncured means that it has been out of the water for a period of time and some of the Life on it has died off...so when you add it to your tank it needs time to cure itself...to process the dead organisms and come back to life. This GENERALLY takes from 4-6 weeks. I say generally because it's different for everyone. That's just a basic timeline before you will be able to add any other life to your tank. If you use Cured LR, which has be sitting in a tank at your LFS while it cures for a month or so, your cycling period can be much shorter. There isn't really a good or bad way to do it. In general most people prefer to use cured LR if they can get it since the cycling time is less and it's easier to see its quality. Either way you need to be patient...patience is the most important thing when starting a sw tank.
As for the Live Sand...if you can get some then go for it. If not then just use normal sand and the the critters from the LR will spread into the sand in short order, so either way works.

Moon was right on about the refugium! Alot of nano tank keepers only use a refugium and LR for filtration. Refugiums are great for keeping macro algae to control your nitrates and supplying a never ending supply of copepods to feed your fish. I would also recommend that you get a skimmer as well. While they aren't absolutely neccessary on a nano tank because of the frequent w/c, they act as a backup...especially for a beginner while you are learning the exact care you tank requires. Kind of a belt and suspenders thing!
You don't need to use the most expensive equipment out there...don't get caught up in everyone telling you that you need the greatest and latest! Just buy quality equipment that will last and does the job....but most of all enjoy it! It's all about fun right?

Sorry for the long thread....kinda got caught up a bit...I LOVE my marine tanks!!!!!!!!!

James

[JeffreyRichard]

IMO, keeping a reef tank is much less work than keeping discus. I had a very successful 75 gallon reef tank 10 years ago (until my VHO ballest went south ... contingeny should be planned). I'd change water once a month, add fresh water several times a week to maintain salinity, and add chemicals (trace elements) at this time. I'd clean my protien skimmer every 2 weeks. Fed the tank every other day (or so ...)

Bottom line ... low maintenance ... ONCE I got the tank stablized (about 6 months ...)

The big investment is equipment ... particularly lighting and protien skimmer. The current thinking is mixed on PS, although I'd continue using one for peace of mind. However, don't skimp on lighting. You'll need VHO at a minimum, for a small tank Power Compact makes sense. Also, a chiller MAY be required in the summer (my tank got really stessed on those 100 degree days)

As far as the "ethics" question/opinion ... the ocean is a renewable resource when properly managed. The educational and intellectual value of keeping a reef environment, IMO, is intrensically good. As long as the reef is not overcollected, and only those animals that can thrive in captivity are taken, I don't have a problem collecting SW. There are plenty of initiatives to raise captive-bred animals, and they are becoming more available on the market.


As DiscusGeo wrote, Definately check out Reef Central http://reefcentral.com

[CanadianGuy]

I agree with Jeffrey. I meant to say this before too...my reef tank is WAY easier to take care of than the discus are!...and it's not even fully established yet!


oh and check this website out.
www.nano-reef.com (http://www.nano-reef.com) There is a lot of good information there on nano tanks...just ignore all the flaming...I don't go there much because of it anymore, but I learned a TON!

[Lou]

In reference to the ethics of keeping SW fish, I'd like to toss this into the ring. In a perfect world, we would leave the reefs alone and allow them to thrive and flourish. However, our world is far from perfect. It is becoming more apparant that the only way to protect the reef and the fish from abuse is to make it in the best interests of all concerned, ESPECIALLY the people who live around the reefs. I hate that we need to look at everything as a commodity that needs to be assessed based on its monetary value, but there you go. If you want to protect the reefs and its fish, you need to show the people who collect them the ways to make it more profitable for them long term. Ironically, this also happens to be the most environmentally sensitive way. Programs that make reef fish collection profitable and sustainable are the key. They also need to be done on a huge scale. I direct you to the website for the Marine Aquarium Council:

http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/

I really believe these guys are getting it right in a big way. I have successfully kept saltwater fish in the past. I have no plans of doing it ever again but I do not believe we can just tell people to stop. The business itself, is so vast, it may ultimately become the thing that saves these fish. People will do whatever it takes to protect their livelihood. Especially if you tell them that it may be disappearing fast. This applies both to the reefs and the amazon. Make it profitable, and people will protect it.

My final thought. It is true that a few SW fish are being bred in captivity. It is also true that this is good for the hobby and the fish. However, it should be noted that the extensive list posted earlier is not a practical list. Many species are rarely available and only in small quantities, others have not been released for commercial sale. Basically it is all still in its infancy. I have been to some of the finest aquarium stores on the east coast and tank bred saltwater fish are very, very rare beyond the good ole clownfish. Not a criticism, just reality.

Best,
-Lou

[CanadianGuy]

While you won't find every fish on the list in your LFS, that situation is rapidly changing. These fish are being bred regularly and it is more and more common to see them in the LFS tanks every day. I don't think it's hard to find cb fish in any way whatsoever. I can go out today and get far more than just cb clownfish. Prehaps it a different story in other places.

Captive bred fish aren't rare if you look for them. You may have to go further than your LFS, but the option is there if you want it.

[RandalB]

Great Input guys! Keep It coming..

Canadian Guy, I also Have a Seahorse in my Reef. Guy was giving it away, couldn't pass it up. Captive bred Male Grey Spotted. Kids love him...

With that list, I'd be surprised if Karen couldn't find some fish she'd like.

RandalB

[iceskater]

Well this tread is getting lively. I just came back from 4 LFS. I have a pounding headache. This is what information I took from them. I should not have hard coral with clown fish. I can do with anemone but would need more water movement. The prices of everything were extremely high (especially the live rock) and no one single fish store had everything I would need. So I am discouraged at the moment. I was kind of excited that I could get a gallon of mixed water for .69. 8)

Keep posting, I am sure now I will not jump into this discision over night. But in my heart I know I will end up with the tank I have wanted salt water for a long time.

Karen

KAren

[iceskater]

Moon or Anyone

What is this refugium

[Discusgeo]

Essentially, a refugium is nothing more than a refuge from predation.

Read this article iceskater
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/a/aa041400.htm


Also when it come to Anemone

BTAs, condys and LTAs will all usually do fine under PCs and VHOs. However, most other anemones do best under halides. I have seen a number of carpets (bright colored haddoni carpets) that struggeled (simply survived) under PCs or VHOs only to thrive when moved under halides (and color up significantly).

[RandalB]

Karen,
The First Mistake is going to the LFS to buy the equipment. Online all the way.

Second,
If you don't mind paying some Parcel Post, I can help you out with some of that. My Cost on the live sand is $17.00 a Bag. It comes in Cases of 2x20 lb bags. I need 20lbs so I have to buy a case. I'd be happy to ship the 2nd bag to you. I also have some large Tufa Rock (Base Rock) I could send to you for Shipping cost.

As far as the Live Rock Goes, I can get you some from HarborAquatics.com it's precured, and about the best I've seen anywhere. It's $4.50 a lb (Maybe less ;) ), you need 7-10 Lbs and I'll be happy to priority mail it for you. It should be fine. A 10 Lb Package from here to CA should be $15-20.

You just need to keep it simple, No Hard Corals, Clams, etc. Find out who is Fragging Soft Corals in your area and get in touch. You can get small pieces of most Softies for less than $20.00.

You need:
The Tank (JBJ Nano-cube)
A 50W Heater
Salt Mix
Live Sand (10-20Lbs)
Live Rock (5-10 Lbs) Maybe only one piece
Some RO Water from the local Store (Buy the gallon Bottled water that says "Purified by Reverse Osmosis and Ozone") Unless the LFS is selling it for less than $0.50 per gallon
Some Cleaner Inverts
"Nemo" and "Marlin"
A Hydrometer (I have an extra you can have if needed)

That's it for now. You don't need anything else initially. You don't even need the skimmer if you are going to be doing regular W/C's.

So, here's the steps for setting up your tank

(This is what I did..):

1) Find Location and setup tank. (I put a Piece of Thin Acryllic from Home Depot under it to avoid salt damage to the night stand it's on..)
2)Place Heater in Filter Area (I put it in the part with the Pump)
3)Mix 2x 5 Gallon Buckets of Salt mix
4)Put Live Sand and Rock in tank
5)Put a Piece of Black Plastic contractor Garbage Bag on the sand and Fill the Tank (Plastic keeps the sand down) DO NOT Use kitchen Garbage bags as they contain nasty Chemicals that will kill your fish.
6) Plug in heater and Nano Cube and let temp Stabilize at 78F
7)Let Sit for 3 Days, Checking Salinity, ammonia, Nitrite levels (BTW the Aquarium Pharmicutical test kits are for both Fresh and Saltwater..)
8 ) If Salinity is 1.020-1.025, Ammonia and nitrite are 0, you can Add 1 small fish.
9) Wait 1 Week Checking Levels as in #7
10) If levels are still 0, Do A 30% W/C and add 1 small fish
11) Wait 1 Week Checking Levels as in #7
12) If levels are still 0, add cleaner Inverts- I have 3 Scarlet Hermits, 3 Blue Leg Hermits, 4 Astrea snails, 4 Nassarius Snails and 1 Emerald Crab
13) Wait 1 Week watching Levels CLOSELY Being prepared to change water. Ammonia is way lethal to the inverts.
14) Change Water, Wait another 2 weeks, changing water weekly.
15) If levels are 0, add 3x small soft coral Frags on rockwork

Now, the main problem you are going to have is the Clowns will NOT get along. Ideally, they should be introduced together after being purchased from the same place and tank. You still might not have any luck with them! It took me about 6 different fish to get what I think is a pair that get along. Fortunately, I deal RO with a LFS and the owner has no problem taking them back. You might just want to get "Nemo" and another small fish like a Psudochromis of some type. They'll get along better. Stay away from Damsel fish though, they are nasty and territorial

Just some info on what I did.
RandalB

[tcfish]

Okay here we go good points bad points,I grew up on saltwater tanks learned alot from them as a kid, had reef tanks in the 60s before they were called reef tanks ,living in florida used to collect stuff, get saltwater in buckets from gulf to do water changes ,well in the last 35 years i have seen quite a bit of the damage from the saltwater hobby.I myself have taken my love of saltwater fishes to higher levels became a wholesaler ,at one time was the second to third largest wholesaler of live rock out of the state or florida ,then it was cool picking up peices of rock of the bottom of the gulf [in my opinion still the best rock found anywhere in the world ] then hobby exploded every body and there brother who shrimped ,fished ,sponged,crabed got into the picture, when they found out you could get.50 to2.00 dollars a pound for rock laying on bottom of ocean in only about 15 to 45 feet of water easy way to make a 1000.00 a day having fun! then it got out of hand whole entire ledges being air jack hammered out gone for good,no more breeding grounds, Im glad they banned it if they didnt they would of turned the gulf into a waste land dont let anyone fool you i was there ,big stink about livley hood and all, GREED ,plain and simple.Aquculture is the only way to go to preserve what is left and still be able to have a nice saltwater set up,but if you think that is happening on a large scale basis you are living in neverland ,yea clowns,gobies might be being breed large scale same with soft corals,but most of the rest should stay in the ocean I still gringe of all the seahorses i sent out to die to all the hobbiests that had to have a neat looking seahorse to keep in there tank with a spotted grouper and a lionfish.When i hear some one say i work in a pet store and the the distributor says they are tank raised makes me laugh sorry to say this industrie is not about the love of fish or the enviorment itS about MONEY.YES THEY STILL CYANIDE FISH TO CATCH THEM.Ever have flame angeles die for no apparent reason i could go on .Im not saying to not go saltwater i have loved my tanks and the time i spent in the industrie my kids learned a lot of respect for mother ocean becuase of collecting and the tanks we kept them in, but time is a cruel master and so many people are doing it now, it really is making an impact on the enviorment and those that are making MONEY off of it will tell you different.TO do saltwater tell your lfs how you feel they might try to put the meassage across to the wholesalers but i dought it will change,thats the way it is in the wholesale saltwater trade ,MONEY,GREED,GIMMICKS.I cant say for fear of getting sued but somone here mentioned a protien skimmer we invented[kinda like a joke] sold the paten to big brother now they are mass producing them. ::) Now freshwater industrie like apples and stones, these people still see dollars and cents but they basicly give a shi*, they on the most part raise em want a name for them selfs plan on sticking around for a while, with same fish,or fishes, even importers of freshwater fish have to be carefull becase the farmers that buy from them want there *** covered not to mention the internal network if somone sucks it travels real fast.So back to subject i think discus more demanding and fun not impacting the enviorment,saltwater more maintnence due to salt more costly in long run not sure were or how fish are treated or were they are coming from.LONG LIVE THE KING "DISCUS"

[CanadianGuy]

I would recommend that you pass on the anemone. They aren't suitable for beginners and aren't even really suitable for anyone to keep in an aquarium. Clownfish don't need an anemone to survive in any way. In the wild they use them to protect themselves from predetors...which if you stock your tank properly there won't be any. Clownfish sometimes take certain soft corals as hosts as well....but you will find that yours will be perfectly happy without one.
Also don't worry about not being able to keep hard corals...that opens a whole other can of worms on lighting and equipment.

I have to appluad Randal on having CB seahorse! WC Seahorses vary rarely live more than a few weeks(if that) in an aquarium for anyone less than an expert. Even then the mortality rates are astounding. It's wonderful that CB seahorses...which do as well as any other CB fish in an aquarium...are finally becoming available on a commercial scale. I'm working on building my own breeding colony of Seahorses in hopes of offering them to Canadian hobbyists since on May 1st Seahorses are coming under the ruling of CITES which will severely limit the availability of imports.
A heads up...If anyone wants to keep SHs, just be careful about what corals you have in your tank. There are many corals that will make a meal out of a SH who hitches onto the wrong spot.

[Discusgeo]

Iceskater if your looking for a nice seahorse stay away from the Local Pet shops unless they can prove they are Captive Bread (CB) Here is the best place to go if you want a healthy Seahorse, Ocean Rider has the best and they are not cheap but for the serious horse lover and breeder.
http://www.oceanrider.com/

Here the cities ruling also.
The CITES convention held in Santiago Chile this week of Nov 10-15 has officially listed Sea Horses as an endangered species.

If you want a Clownfish please go to Reef Central and read the FAQ on Anemones & Clownfish. Here's the link to that.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=36

To save you a ton of Money I really recommend to go back to Reef Central and look for one of the clubs in SoCal. Like mine here in Arizona I am lucky to have 3 so every other week I can go to one of the get togethere's where everyone trades or gives away Frags to help each other out. I never paid more than $8.00 for anything and that was for the female Tomato Clown. If you find a club in your area most people would give you a hand full or two of there live sand to get your up and running. That sand in a bag they say is dormant sand I would stay away from, just anoither rip off. Check your local Home Depot and see if they have a bag of Southdown sand. You would find it where the playground sand is. This would be my first choice for sand before buying it out of a pet shop. Southdown sand is a fine grain araganite, and is very cheap. It is the same as the carib sea araganite. The company went out of business but you can still find it at some hardware stores. The other sand you can use is Old Castle or Yardright for the same price, they are all the same just name changes. I put a picture of Southdown below for your reference. You can also use Silica sand which is fine but does not have the same buffering capacity of aragonite.

If you can't find any of that then get the amount of argonite sand for your tank and get with some reefers for some live sand from their tanks to start off right. The so called live sand in the bag does not have the same critters as real live sand from an active aquarium. Dead sand will acquire bacteria and perhaps some animals from live rock, if you add any, but that's not the same as having a more diverse set of organisms. I would put 3-4 inches down for my deep sand bed.

Again please read the Clownfish section before getting a Clown or two as RandalB said all clown do not get along with each other and it takes a lot of patience to get a bonded pair. A bonded pair is not the same as a breeding pair. If you want a Captive Bred Clownfish I would go with John Hardman at http://www.clownfishdirect.com/

Southdown sand
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/southdownsand.jpg

[CanadianGuy]

While Ocean Rider is generally considered to have some of the nicest CB Seahorses in the US, you may want to do a search and read what people have written about the company/customer service itself. It was a great help in making my decision.

You also might want to rethink getting a pair or 2 types of Clownfish. As some have said before most types of clowns don't mix well...especially in such a small tank. I wouldn't try to put more than 1 Percula or Ocellaris in anything smaller than a 20g. Other types of clowns require even larger tanks.

Discusgeo,
Your idea of using a deep sand bed is a good one, but remember that she wants to set up a small 10-12g nano tank. They aren't really practical in such a shallow tank. On my 20L I put a DSB in my refugium since there wasn't enough room in the main tank.

[iceskater]

Oh My, you guys are not doing much to relieve the headache. ;D ;D

1. I do not need 2 clownfish. I am leaning towards the maroon one. I am very very open to other types of small fish, that are vibrant in color. Recommendations. I will be looking at the marlin as well.

2. Can someone list some soft corals, other than anemone that I could research?

3. This statement has me real real concerned. (a chiller MAY be required in the summer (my tank got really stessed on those 100 degree days). I live in southern california, it gets real real hot here. I do not have central air. My discus did fine last year, but they require higher temps. I used a cheap fan on top of the tanks to keep them cool last summer. With that in mine, am I doomed before I start with salt water. I checked the prices of chillers they are way over my intended budget.

4. One of the things that a lFS kind of has me considering, is using one of my 20g tanks, getting a protein skimmer and a powerhead. Powerheads seem cheap. Seems to me I would need more of everything increasing cost above my budget, but would I be more successful? Could a real good florescent bulb create proper lighting, I have the fixture.

5. Randal, I got your IM, I work today, how is tomorrow for you?

Well that is the early morning report.

Karen

[ReeferKimberly]

may be mistaken, but anren't maroon clowns the most aggressive of them all? try an occelaris instead?
kimberly :-*

[daveycrockett]

I think it is just like other things in nature, you need to have a healthy respect for the things God has given us for our enjoyment. I enjoy fishing and hunting but I know if I dont obey the laws and be responsible I am not going to have fish and game to hunt. Another point is we need to focus on learning to properly care for the fish before we bring them into our homes that way we are not carelessly killing fish and impacting the enviroment more than is needed. We have been able to enjoy other wildlife and kept them thriving I think the same can be done with marine life.


p.s. Why cant some be bred in captivity? I know it took awhile for discus to

[CanadianGuy]

Karen,

hamhelper is correct. Maroon clowns are known to be the most aggressive of the clownfish. They also require tanks of 30g or more since they can grow to 6" in some cases. The only clownfish that would be suitable for a nano tank is the Percula and Ocellaris(False Percula) of the 2 the False Perc is perhaps the better choice. Not to mention they are also usually cheaper. They look almost identical and only people who know what to look for can tell the difference.

Remember that adding corals to your tank turns it from a rather simple FOWLR(fish only with live rock) setup into a reef tank. By doing that you are committing yourself to a more expensive setup. With corals you will need a skimmer and more powerful lights..lights being of utmost importance. If you go with a FOWLR setup you can do without the skimmer so long as you keep on top of the water changes...you also can use a regular florescent light fixture. (once you decide which way to go we can help you with equipment specifics)

Since you don't want to spend a ton of money and are a beginner I would agree with RandalB and suggest going with a FOWLR. You'll save a ton of money on equipment. Go back and read what he lists on his cost writeup...not bad at all if you ask me...it's a 1/4 of what I spent on my 20g reef tank!
I would suggest you use the 20g that you already have...put the money you would have spent on a nano cube and fill it with as much LR as you can, put some good florescent tubes over it add a powerhead or two and there's your FOWLR tank!
btw you will need to use powerheads no matter what size tank you have! Powerheads provide currents which are extremely important for the LR and even your fish The organisms on LR needs the currents to carry food to them to survive.

As far as a chiller goes...how hot did your discus tank get in the summer? Saltwater fish are much less tolerant of temp changes so this may be a limiting factor as to wether you can keep a marine tank or not. It would be cheaper for you to purchase a window air conditioner to keep your home at the proper temp than it would be to buy a chiller. Plus you get to enjoy the cooler air too! Try rubbing up against a chiller on a hot day! ;D

[iceskater]

CandianGuy,
I have been reading on the nano forum. Also some good stuff.

I can not remember how hot the discus tanks were getting but it was pretty warm. Here is california it is almost as warm at night as it is during the day. Unfortunately I can not have a window air condition due to the size and design of the windows in my mobile home. We are looking into getting the swamp cooler replaced. If no other idea's come up for the heat situation I may start this sw tank project in september or when the cooler is installed which ever comes first. May not be such a bad idea at least I can read as much as I can by then.

As for the coral, that is something I really really want. I want the coral more than the fish.. I would have little interest in just rock and fish. The cube does come with better light than I would get from the florescent from what I have read and been told.

Back to reading the nano forum. Thanks again Guy and everyone.

Karen

[CanadianGuy]

daveyc,

Alot of marine fish are extremely difficult to spawn and some have very primitive larvae that are/are almost impossible to provide the proper care for in a captive enviroment at this time. One of the biggest problems is providing the right type/size of food for the larvae to feed on. Some fish require conditions that are not possible to duplicate in a tank in any way. Freshwater fish in general come from an enviroment that much easier to duplicate in captivity. It's rather easy to provide the conditions of a stream of even a lake in an aquarium, while trying to duplicate the conditions of the ocean is a much more daunting task. There are also economic constraints that limit what fish can be bred. The expense of breeding marine fish is much higher than that of freshwater fish because of water, food, and other requirements. Just remember that the aquaculture of a marine fish is a relatively new venture compared to FW fish. We are just now beginning to understand the requirements of marine fish and more and more species are being bred all the time. Discus started out the same way....

[CanadianGuy]

Personally I feel that the nano cube is overpriced. You would be better off picking up individual components yourself. IF you keep reading the nano forum you'll see that a lot of people are upgrading the lighting that came with it. If you aren't handy with DIY it might be better to avoid the problem entirely. Besides if I remember correctly the nano cube only comes with a 23w power compact? There are also problems with putting a skimmer on the nano cube. More DIY required to make it fit. If you really want the corals you should go with a 20g and spend the extra money to get the proper lighting.
Besides...while you could keep a 12g tank without much trouble a larger tank is generally considered easier to take care of. Changes happen rapidly in a small tank. The extra water volume of a larger tank gives you more time to correct any problems or mistakes. It also gives you more room for fish and corals for not that much more money!!

I think you've given yourself the best advice you will get.

If no other idea's come up for the heat situation I may start this sw tank project in september or when the cooler is installed which ever comes first. May not be such a bad idea at least I can read as much as I can by then.


Read, read and read some more! That's the best thing you can do.

[iceskater]

Morning
Well I went to bed and think I may have made the discision. I am leaning towards using the 20g. I will pick up the equipment slowly each week or so, while I wait for the MR to get around to replacing the roof and putting up the swamp cooler we so badly need. Jump in here Randal, what do you think?

So, just exactly what will I need. These are the things I figure I can buy slowly now:

I usually buy online from Pet Solutions
Powerhead - Recommendations?
Hydrometer - saw one for $7.99
LIght Fixture- Really want input on this one, do not want to spend a million, what would be adequate at a reasonable orice.
Protein Skimmer-Recommendations?

These are the things I figure I can buy ahead of time. Once I can set up the tank, I will need some input as to how much sand and rock I will need.

Once again thanks to everyone for all the assistance. I am excited, but think waiting is best. I will continue to read and purchase above items as I plan for the new tank.

Karen

[CanadianGuy]

Good idea taking things slowly. That way you learn as much as you can and when you finally have everything and can set up your tank you won't be lost and wondering what to do.

As for your equipment questions:

Powerheads - You'll need 2. It's best to have one aimed at an angle towards the front glass and another aimed behind your rockwork. Maxi-Jets are highly recommended. Stay away from Rios...nothing but trouble and you'll end up replacing them when they stop working. As far as size goes...you can't have too much flow as long as it's directed properly. 2 Maxi-Jet 1200s in a 20g would be just about perfect. http://petsolutions.com/product.asp?pn=51307280

Hydrometer - Almost any will work. The IO Hydrometer you saw should be fine.http://petsolutions.com/product.asp?pn=51302503 You should bring your water into your LFS and have him test it to make sure your hydrometer is calibrated properly. Most of them are but you will want to be sure.

Light Fixture - Considering your budget and your desire to keep some soft corals I would go with Power Compacts. Try Coralife Aqualights for the best value IMO. Get one with as many watts as you can afford. http://www.hellolights.com/242xcoraqpch1.html They have less powerful models that are cheaper, but you will be limiting what corals you can keep by quite a bit if you go with less power. If you go with the Aqualight get the legs as well for another $10. You don't want to use a cover on a saltwater tank...they create heat and off-gassing issues.

Protein Skimmer - Try a Red Sea Prizm. There are a lot of people that complain about these skimmers. The skimming capacity of these skimmers is HIGHLY over-rated...they are rated for up to 100g. Thats where the complaints come in..People buy them for their big tanks and they don't work at all. On tanks 30g or less they work fine...and you can't beat the price! http://petsolutions.com/product.asp?pn=12515870

Don't forget you will need a good thermometer, salt, and a heater as well. It's often recommended to use 2 small heaters...2 50w on a 20g...instead of 1 larger heater. If one malfunctions and stays on you won't cook your tank. Remember marine fish are very sensitive to temperature.
There are a few other odds and ends you may need but those are the basics.

Hope that helps!

James

[iceskater]

Thanks James,
You did a great job on my shopping list. I will keep you posted. I really really like the price you found on the lights and I can not beat that cheap price on the power head.

Karen

[CanadianGuy]

No problem! Hellolights usually has pretty good prices. Plus they will match any other price you find online. I've heard a lot of good things about them. I just wish they shipped to Canada. :(

I'm glad I was able to help. You'll love keeping a reef tank!

James

[iceskater]

James,
I just beat pet solutions price on the skimmer. A brand new one (deluxe) including shipping $72.99 :) On ebay. I did not bid on it yet, he has 17 and they are buy it now with 4 days to go. I am going to wait a day or so and make sure I do not change my mind. I kind of think I should buy the light first. Which leads me to my question.

Lets say this project does not work out as well as I am hoping, is that light to powerful for say a planted freshwater tank?? I also kind of want to see if there are florescent bulbs that will work for a few months to be sure I am not in over my head with sw.

Karen

[iceskater]

James,
One more thing...

You don't want to use a cover on a saltwater tank...they create heat and off-gassing issues.

I smoke like a chimmney this tank will be right next to an area where I smoke the most, I will need the cover....

Karen

[RandalB]

Karen:

Powerhead - Recommendations?
>> Maxijet is the most recommended.
Hydrometer - saw one for $7.99
>> I have one you can have..
LIght Fixture- Really want input on this one, do not want to spend a million, what would be adequate at a reasonable orice.
>> Here ya go, Jebo Brand 24" 2x55 Watt PC fixture w/Bulbs for $49.99 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2391493190&category=46 314 I changed the Actinic bulb because I like the darker blue ones but for the price you can't beat it.

Protein Skimmer-Recommendations?
>> Seaclone 100 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2391740801&category=46 313 $59.99 new in the box. You'll hear a lot of crap about them but since they've been redesigned, they are great. I love the one I have, you should see all the crap it pulls out of the water. I bought a second one for the "Nemo" Tank just recently


As far as the cover goes, I use one. You don't have to worry about the off gassing problems with a skimmer. It acts like a big aerator.

I'm not sure what you mean about a swamp cooler???

RandalB

[CanadianGuy]

It depends on what type of cover you are using. A canopy that's open on the back yes. A glass top no. Especially if she has heat issues in her home a glass cover with the lights on will result in a rather large rise in heat. PCs get very hot. Not to mention that the salt creep on a glass will need to be cleaned daily or you'll be losing valuable light.

I wouldn't worry about smoking near the tank if it has no top. The skimmer will be pulling in the air)and smoke) if you have a cover or not.

Now I'm going by my cartoon knowledge here, but isn't a swamp cooler basically a tub of ice and a fan?? ???

[iceskater]

Randal & James
The swamp cooler sort of works on the ice premise, but this one is on the roof and is central through the house. Bout all I can I say about it. I know when it use to work IW before the earthquake it was real cold in this house.

Randal, I am going for the light, right this second, it is cheaper than just getting bulbs. Thanks so much.

You both have been so great getting me going on this. Thanks so much.

Karen

[JeffreyRichard]

LIght Fixture- Really want input on this one, do not want to spend a million, what would be adequate at a reasonable orice.
Karen


AH Supply ... DIY Compact Flourensent Lighting http://www.ahsupply.com/36-55w.htm

$40/$70 per fixture

[RandalB]

Jeff, I agree about AHsupply if she was retrofitting, they are the best. You can't beat that Jebo 24" Deal though. It's even got an aluminum housing for the $49.99
RandalB

[iceskater]

Well it is official. I purchased the lights and drug the tank out of hiding, cleared off the night stand. I have no use for these things with out a salt water tank so the committment has started... ;D ;D

One question for now. Is the sand and live rock heat sensitive as well, I may just start a tad earlier than I planned say a few weeks or so..

Karen

[CanadianGuy]

Pretty much yes. You have to remember the rock/sand isn't really live, but it's covered/filled with tiny little organisms and animals that are.

Congrats on getting started! Good deal on the lights too...the replacement bulbs are going to cost almost as much as the light fixture!! ;D

[iceskater]

That is kind of what sold me on the lights, I figured it was a good price for the set up since I would probably pay that alone for the lights. That and the fact that if I keep the cost down as much as I can I will not feel so bad if this does not work out. But I am being optimistic. This is going to work....

The roofer is coming this week to give an estimate and the mr is pricing swamp coolers tomorrow. I will be ready to start before we know it.... ;D

Thanks again to all of you....

Karen

[RandalB]

Karen,
I've read threads where people's tanks got up to 88F with no problems. It's that Oxygen saturation you have to worry about.

IM me your address and I'll send you the hydrometer..

RandalB

[Discusgeo]

Iceskater here is a picture of a 12gallon NANO. It does not belong to me but you can read about it from the owner at the following link on Reef Central
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-1/7658/nano.jpg.jpeg

Link to the owner
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=351357

[captainandy]

Very interesting discussion. I'd like to add my two cents. Been keeping SW for well over 20 years. I'd like to reinforce some of the excellent advice offered:

Nano Tanks are an extension of advanced reefkeeping. Sure, you'll have people tell you about the great success they had first time, but most people don't. When SW tanks decline, they crash and burn in hours and you're left with lots of dead organisms. And the SW fish are 10 times easier to maintain than the inverts and corals.

Don't skimp on anything. You need light, light and more light. Without it most corals slowy decline, shrink and die.

At most, a nano tank should have no more than a couple of small fish. With the higher pH, ammonia is much more potent...which leads to my final point: Once you add the live rock, wait at least 2 months before you put anything in. Add fish first. Inverts die at the site of ammonia.

That said, my 110 gal reef has not had a filter running for over three years. I do a 30% water change about once a month (for vacuuming). Once set-up and mature, it much, much easier to maintain than discus. Costly, however. A thousand for lights, eight hundred for chiller, five for the calcium reactor, etc. etc.

That said, my neighbors find the SW much more attractive and interesting to watch than my planted discus tank. But I like the discus better!!!!

[CanadianGuy]

I have to disagree with this

Nano Tanks are an extension of advanced reefkeeping. Sure, you'll have people tell you about the great success they had first time, but most people don't.

While a nano tank requires closer monitoring and a little more work than a large reef tank, there is absolutely no reason that a beginner can't be successful with one their first time. As long as they take the time to learn as much as possible before they start throwing things in the tank, I see no difference between a beginner starting a 20g nano or a 200g reef tank so long as they've done their research.
I believe that nano tanks are opening the doors to people who want to get into the hobby but can't afford the
thousand for lights, eight hundred for chiller, five for the calcium reactor, etc. etc.

A nano is very expensive compared to an equally sized freshwater tank, but still within reach of someone who would otherwise be unable to afford a large marine tank set-up.
Nanos don't require large expensive light set-ups...they are small enough that using a calcium supplement(Kalkawasser, B-Ionic) is an affordable option so that an expesive calcium reactor isn't required...they don't require large amounts of salt...(with 30% w/c monthly on a 110g tank, a 200g bucket of salt would last 6 months...that same bucket on a 20g nano with weekly 10% w/c will last almost 2 years!!)

Of course that said there are people who spend thousands of dollars to have the best lighting, the best filtration, etc, etc. It's just like anything else in the world...there are quality affordable options available if you look around.

You do need to keep a close eye on a nano to make sure everything stays within the proper parameters...you also need to stay on top of the maintenance...you can't skip a water change like you may be able to do with a larger tank. If these requirements are met, there is no reason that a beginner shouldn't be able to maintain a beautiful nano tank of their own.

I don't think there is a single person here that started out in discus and hasn't suffered a set-back of some sort. It's all part of the learning curve. If you haven't had one yet...you will. Even the experts do. I don't think it's a reason to avoid the hobby.

[iceskater]

Update,
I have read so much lately. Thanks for the nano-reef forum who ever recommended it. Sorry I do not remember now. Some of it has me scared but truth is, I read up on discus as well and was totally petrified that I would not be able to keep them. If I had let those feelings take control I would never have tried them. 15 months later. I am totally successful with discus. I have 16 healthy discus. I am moving forward I am anxious to start my salt water tank. The lighting should arrive today or tomorrow.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Karen

[JeffreyRichard]

Update,
I have read so much lately. ... Some of it has me scared but truth is, I read up on discus as well and was totally petrified that I would not be able to keep them. If I had let those feelings take control I would never have tried them. 15 months later. I am totally successful with discus. ...
Karen


It is such a shame that people are constaintly being told that this hobby is too hard for them ... and scaring them off.

there is, to the best of my knowledge, NOTHING that is too difficult to learn or master.

It took me years to finally get a planted FW tank right ... now I have a jungle in my show 55 gallon.

It took me a couple of times to get reef right ... but it happened ...

Anyone willing to invest time/energy/ some capital CAN make any aspect of aquarium hobby work.

Sometimes I think there are a number of so-called exp the different areas of this hobby that purposely promote the idea that "only experts can do this or that" ... I'm sure it's an ego thing. Thank goodness for the folks on this forum and others like it ... willing to share without ego et al ...

[CanadianGuy]

Karen,
I'm glad you like the nano-reef forum. Just don't be afraid to post and ask a question...it's horrible how they flame some newbies for asking a question that has been asked before. It's impossible for someone to read every single post there is so that they don't ask the same question twice. Despite the few that need to get a life, there are people there that truly want to help and you'll get some great info.



Right on Jeffrey!! :thumbsup:

[iceskater]

The lighting is here. It is great. I put it on the discus tank just to see how it looked. Wow, the color intensity was amazing. They looked great. Then I packed it back up and put it away for its trye purpose, the salt water tank. Thanks Randal so much for finding such a deal for me. It was well worth the money.

The project is moving along, the roof will be started the week after next and the swamp cooler will go on at the same time. Of course there are drawbacks it is costing so much, I have to save again to get some money for the rest of my salt water equipment etc.. Patience.

Thanks everyone for all the support. I can not wait.

Karen