Phosphate

[kite]

I have a problem in my tank, all my Discus are in hiding. They don't seem to have any diseases and eat food only when there's no one in the room.

I've only recently become aware I have quite a phosphate problem. Despite daily water changes and cleaning, I haven't yet managed to bring it down.

Does anybody know how to reduce phosphate faster and whether this may be why my fish are hiding?

I have a 500 litre planted tank.

I really would appreciate any help.

[Carol_Roberts]

Are you sure the problem is phosphates?
How long have you had the discus?
How long has this graveled, planted tank been running?
Do you use CO2 with the resultant pH swings?

[kite]

Dear Carol,

Thanks for answering my post.

I certainly do have a problem with phosphates. I've been changing water daily (30 - 40%), for the last 10 days and I'm still getting readings above 5.0mg/L.

Of course, whether this is the reason my discus want to hide, I'm not sure.

I bought them from an extremely good breeder in Sydney three months ago. When I put them in the tank, things couldn't have been more perfect. They campaigned for food every time I walked by and would almost feed out of my hand. They'd eat anything I cared to give them. Incidently, they were on a diet of Tetra bits for breakfast, frozen blood worms for lunch and shrimp bryne for dinner.

About a month ago, after a water change and harvesting of a few plants, all nine discus became very fearful of coming out when someone was in the room.

They're eating fine, although I've reduced their diet, wondering whether this may be the source of the phosphates.

All my other readings; - Nitrate, Nitrite, PH, Amonia, GH, and KH, seem perfectly fine!

I don't currently use a C02 system, although I was thinking of employing a system I found at the following link, in hope that stronger plant growth may cure my phosphate problem:
http://www.ausdiscus.com.au/library.html

While writing this post, one of the smaller Discus jumped out the tank. I'm glad I was in the room this time - I hope it survives.

I've tried leaving the lights off for the day, taking away their main cover, replacing their main cover, not feeding and leaving gentle music on - you can tell I'm getting desperate!

I feel, until I get the Phosphate problem under control, that's the only possible explanation.

Please let me know what you think.

[Rick_May]

You wouldn't happen to be using an additive like Discus Buffer?

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . .or plant weights, or plant fertilizer . . .

In the beginning discus do fine in a new graveled tank. Over time the discus grow and waste accumulates. Eventually a point is reached where the discus start to do poorly - hiding, not eating, etc. Then it is time for a vacation from the planted tank.

Here's an experiment. Set up a 29 gallon (or larger) bare tank. Let it run for 24 hours with just a dechlor product then add the filter and 4 discus from the 55 gallon. Have the heat be 88 degrees and add 2 tablespoons salt per 10 galloons. Do daily water changes of 30% or more. Don't add anything else except dechlor and salt. Give it at least two weeks. See how they respond.

[kite]

Unfortunately I only have the one display tank (500 Litres). The only other tank I have is a small quarantine tank.

I'm not adding any buffer, I use Peat to control PH.

I haven't been using any fertilizer, but was about to introduce one. One I made myself from the recipe at this link: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html

According to some member of the Australian Discus Association, this is a very good formula and its extremely cheap.

Sydney water dosen't have any phosphate in it, although it's not very nice to drink, so I've just invested in a reverse osmosis filter to see whether this helps.

I really do not want to buy another tank as it's getting away from my objective to have a wonderful planted Discus tank. I guess I'll just have to keep up the water changes and gravel cleaning until I fix the problem.

By the way, do you know how often I can change water? Could I do 30% changes in the morning and evening?

[kite]

Sorry - I'm not using any plant weights.

[Carol_Roberts]

By the way, do you know how often I can change water? Could I do 30% changes in the morning and evening?


You can for the discus - I don't know if the plants will like it or not ;D

[ghettobanana]

I have an "extremely heavily" planted discus tank and I too had problems with P04. Mine was caused by feeding way too much frozen food. ;)

This is going to be a pain in a low-tech aquarium since plants use very little P04 in the first place, but they will take in much more with proper lighting, C02 and all the nutrients they need to out compete the algae. In the mean time I would buy some Aquamarine Phosphate Eliminator (will not harm plants or animals) and put in the required dosage for maintenance during water changes. There are lots of products that will eliminate phosphates without hurting your plants and animals, but to do a ton of water changes is a waste if you don’t figure out what is causing it.

Depending on your fish’s age you may be over feeding (I would bet the house on). I feed only twice and day, but this is me and my tank so it might not fit your particular needs.

I don’t know anything about your tank, but to keep a successfully planted tank with Discus can be a challenge since they do like to have a constant pH and really clean water.
When you are changing a ton of water I bet you are upsetting your pH thus making your fish freak out not to mention your plants are suffering big time. I control my pH with a pH controller that adds C02 when needed to maintain my desired pH reading.

What I am trying to say here is get some good lights, a C02 kit, lots and I mean lots of fast growing plants and then look into adding the nutrients you tank needs. If you start dumping in nutrients without the right balance of lights and CO2 you are going to be in algae land.

I hope this helps.

[kite]

Thanks for this. I think you may be on the money.

Do you think putting the fish on a Vegetarian diet may help while I'm trying to get things under control?

I am thinking of putting a C02 system in over the next few days using the system described on the following link: http://www.ausdiscus.com.au/library.html

I wondered if you could give me your impressions of this method?

[ghettobanana]

I personally just feed them some bloodworms after work and some dry cichlid food a couple hrs before lights go off. I have a hard time getting mine to eat dry food. I mix some blood worms in a coffee cup with tank water and Kent Zoe (Freshwater vitamin & mineral supplement.). I have some tetras and a couple Cories so whatever the Discus miss the others clean up. ;D

The thing you have to keep in mind is that Discus like a consistent pH. They can handle and live well in cooler temps to some people’s dismay as long as they have a consistent pH. DIY C02 does not provide a consistent pH since you can’t control how much it’s dumping in all the time. DIY’s work great on small tanks with hardy fish. Personally I wouldn’t do it on a large tank with Discus since you are going to need a ton of Coke bottles and lots of batch mix to get your pH down, but I am lazy about that kind of stuff. I did one in my son’s rainbow tank and it worked great.

I know it’s expensive to buy a good CO2 unit. The one I use is here http://www.floridadriftwood.com/product.asp?0=217&1=252&3=543 you still need to rent a bottle from a local wielding supply company.

If you have to I would do the DIY until you get ready to buy one like the above. I will give you a tip. I use RO water as well and what you need to do is buy some Kent RO Right. I fill 4x5 gallon jugs using my RO then I put ¼ teaspoon of the Kent RO Right in each bottle. Then I put a pinch of baking soda in each bottle. Let it sit over night and you are good to go. The backing soda bumps your KH up some. I know just how much to put in each bottle to keep my KH at 4. This way my pH is not jumping around a lot and I don’t have to adjust my pH controller. Here a link to learn about the relationship between the two. http://www.csd.net/%7Ecgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm