Beefheart, fertilization, and Algae

[António Vitor]

Less algae is allways better!

so, I am changing again my routine...
I will only add at my water changes PO4 and traces, no NO3..
;)

I guess even at NO3 at low levels I have enough amonia, yes my amonia is allways near zero (not detected by traditonal tests), but that is because of plant and algae eating process (or because I have some competing nitrifyng bacteria), If we add KNO3, we will get more NO3, and probably more NH4 avaiable (for more time... still in undetectable levels).

If NH4 is the big algae "maker" then not giving KNO3 might be good.

I must have a "lot" of NH4 around (of course at very low levels, but low levels with a steady creation of amonia from many sources, of course in undetectable levels)...I feed my fish 3-4 times a day (juicy beefheart!!
;)

Let see if this works!
1-2 weeks I give the answer!
;)

[António Vitor]

I once had a lot less problems with algaes, my fish food was mostly composed of tradicional fish flake food, and some discus pellet.

Now I am only using beefheart with shrimp, and I start getting some problems with algaes...

why I have those problems?
I have some ideias...testing with my PO4 input!

could be because my beefheart don't have a lot of po4?
Or because they excel on nitrogen ?
let see if this "kills" most of the algae
;)

day 1 of my experience...more algae, I guess plants must adapt to a higher PO4 input, still not giving up on my theory...

I have now 0 mg/l at NO3, I still think that might be misleading...

Regards!
António Vitor

[ChloroPhil]

Antonio,

I started getting serious thread and hair algae problems when I started feeding beefheart more often. I think it's an excess of PO4 more than anything. Proteins are very rich in Amine Groups (NH2) and Posphorous. Our plants are able to use the Ammonia produced by the fishes feces, but I don't think they're able to compensate so much for the increased amounts of Phosphorus. Keep up your testing and let us know what you find out, I'm very interested in the results.

Best,
Phil

[Howie_W]

Guys,

Thanks for the replies regarding the glosso, I'm going to hunt around for some, an give it a try.


As far as the effects of beefheart in a planted tank, I think it depends upon the percentage of vegtable matter in the ingredients. If you make your own beefheart, you can experiment with the recipe and make adjustments. It's been a while since I fed beefheart in a planted tank, and found I was happier reserving it for a bare bottom.

Howie

[EDGE]

I doubt po4 is the cause of algae problem when feeding beefheart. I have near 0 po4 when I dont dose po4 in the tank.

It has to do with Fe content. I get huge algae outbreak when I dose micro nutrients with beefheart feeding.

Don't dose micro nutrients containing Fe for a few weeks. Your plants will show sympton of micro deficiency, but most likely less algae as well. After the few weeks, start adding back micro nutrients as you normally would. You should notice an explosive growth in algae if it is Fe causing the problem.

[ChloroPhil]

We'll see, I just added a ton of Micros to my tank last night. :) BTW, I'm splitting the topic. We're getting a little off track. This thread's meant to be in praise and awe of Antonio's tank.

Best,
Phil

[António Vitor]

thanks for splitting the topic Phil !
;)

Edge said:


I doubt po4 is the cause of algae problem when feeding beefheart. I have near 0 po4 when I dont dose po4 in the tank.

It has to do with Fe content. I get huge algae outbreak when I dose micro nutrients with beefheart feeding.

Don't dose micro nutrients containing Fe for a few weeks. Your plants will show sympton of micro deficiency, but most likely less algae as well. After the few weeks, start adding back micro nutrients as you normally would. You should notice an explosive growth in algae if it is Fe causing the problem.

we might be both right, Iron is used to precipitate PO4
http://www.clearwatertechnologies.net/how_it_works/how.htm

If beefheart have lot of iron, then PO4 might turn unavaiable even with lots of PO4...

I guess blood in the beefheart, have lots and lots of Iron,. that might be my problem of low PO4...
I guess we can turn around this problem, with lots of PO4, let see if I am right!
Chelated Iron might not precipitate PO4, nevertheless I am reducing the traces input...

Regards!
António Vitor

[António Vitor]

So N (Nitrogen compunds), might not be my worst problem, like I said previously...
;)

PO4 precipitation might be the guilty one!
;)


tests will continue...
8)

[António Vitor]

well unchelated Iron precipitates PO4 and SO4, I do not know if low levels of SO4 are really bad...
or if that will happen...

[EDGE]

I have always wonder if I am low in SO4. I haven't dose k2so4 in a few months now.

When I get my bottle of botanica micro, I can continue testing Fe affect in the tank. It has been a month since I special order the bottle; it is still not in store.

Does micro nutrients inhibit the growth of the plants? I notice it just make plant look pale, yellow, and narrower, but not sure if it will speed up the growth.

If micro does inhibit the growth, than increasing none Fe micro should speed up plant growth and Fe consumption.

[António Vitor]

well after increasing my PO4 dosage my tank today looks BETTER!
a little less algae and BETTER PLANTS!
:)

have to wait a little more, but because I have allmoust 5 watt per gallon, everything in this tank is fast to take notice...
;D

Regards!
António Vitor

[António Vitor]

this was only temporary!

ho boy!
I have to dose KNO3 with PO4, or I would get lots of trouble!
not more algae, but unhealthy plants!

I am still using the same increased PO4 dose but now with more kno3 and traces...

we will see if this make any good.
I would not give up on beefheart just yet!

[António Vitor]

Nothing good from this regime...
Even with good levels of nutrients!

My guess is now with lack of calcium, I once had a younger substrate, with some Ca (calcium) levels, but after 2 years, most got diluted into the water...I guess.

My water is now with 4 GH, I thought it should have some calcium, but my plants nevertheless show calcium deficiency syntoms, so I must have a extraordinary bad relation Magnesium vs calcium, too much magnesium maybe, and thus preventing others nutrients (calcium) to get into the plants.

I really don't know, nevertheless I inserted 1 Kg of beach sand, (with lots of calcium cabonate on them) (don't try this at home...Discus might not like it!), my GH is not increasing or my pH...I guess I didn't put too much!

My plants are getting better, So I will decrease my po4 and kno3 regime to half...
:)
let see if this start to improve!

This sand has small particles, with time it will end up in the bottom of the substrate.

Regards!
António Vitor

[ChloroPhil]

Antonio,

Why don't you try adding crushed shells to your filter? I know quite a few people locally that do it and it's worked for them.

Best,
Phil

[António Vitor]

I guess that might be better, but I had this sand at hand...
:)

Still improving..
let see...

regards!
Antóno Vitor

[EDGE]

I ran into a problem after switching to Botanica micro.

I did a 60%+ water change and added 20 ml of Botanica micro to the tank.
3 days later, most of the plants begin to melt. ???


gH 4-6
kH 4-6
NO3 7-10
PO4 - 2

[EDGE]

After a week of using Botanica micro, I have concluded that Fe isn't the cause for an algae outbreak.

When I didn't dose trace nutrients, algae grew at a much slower pace which at first I thought was cause by Fe.

Problem is, even a non Fe trace nutrients causes a huge algae outbreak. On the bright side, some plants are grow extremely well without the addition of Fe, but iL. nclinata 'cuba', and a few other plants continue to melt.

Conclusion, beefheart leech some other form of chemical into the water to cause staghorn algae and hair algae. Could it be SiO4? I am not sure how to test for silicate in the water.

[António Vitor]

well, maybe it's no Iron precipitation nor po4.

I put a big calcareous Rock inside my filter!
;)
My GH jumped only into 5º german degrees.

I am not changing my water for 2 weeks (I want to catch the best regime), I believe if I can sustain a good enviroment without many water changes then I am doing something good!
;D

My aquarium is open top, and because of that it evaporates a lot of water, I only replace the evaporated water with tap water, I should have 10 GH...
but I don't have that!

strange...

I was told by someone here in portugal that some water companies began using some aluminium sulphate "for better transparency" in the water.

I don't know if this chemical can precipitate other elements...maybe!
Or is that beefheart juicy stuff?
:)

I Don't know...

I am dosing KNO3 for achieving 5 ppm of NO3, very little traces (only enough of them), and very very little po4 (1/10th of what I was dosing)
after 2 weeks even without water changes it's getting better...

I will post more developments!
:)
stay tuned...

Regards!
António Vitor

[EDGE]

Contrary to my last post, the result of a non Fe trace is starting to show its effect.

After a few weeks of using botanica micro as the only source of trace; the algae seems to have slow down or even died back. There is a lot less algae in the tank. Beside the Limnophila aromatica and Ludwigia inclinata 'cuba' not looking at its best, the rest of the plants are getting bigger and coloring up quite well.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Antonio Vitor, Aluminum Sulfate is used here in the U.S as a flocculant to help clarify pools. What it does is binds small particles so that they become large clumps of particles to help the filter more easily catch them and take them out of suspension, thus improving water clarity(transparency-has to do with NTU's). It is sold under the name "Alum" in pool stores. I believe I have heard it is also good to use as a plant dip before adding the plants to the tank.


Steve

[António Vitor]

thanks Steve...

Even with or without aluminum sulphate, I am getting Good progress now...

I am building a chronological (aquarium progress) photographic event.
:)

When it's done I will let you see my work.

My biggest problem is only related with beefheart (obviously), not with some other stuff, well I believe this is not that bad...at least I have some control on that "variable".

I made many assumptions before, some right and some wrong... allthough it's only with experimentation that we can find something usefull.
;)

My aquarium, like I said is improving dramatically, I hope this is not one of those wrong assumptions ( another variable untested).

what variable is this?

Blood, yes it precipitates a lot of stuff (some of my previous assumptions were correct, blood is red because it contains lot of IRON...bad stuff for plants).

I tried to increase some elements trying to compensate, with no results...now I make a lot of effort trying to reduce at a minimum the blood of beefhart...with (until now), EXCELLENT results!

I even use gelatin to prevent blood leaking from the beefheart...

I am shure I will post an excellent aquarium in a few days...

Edge, your problem might be similar with mine...lots of iron, a reduction might had helped a little!
;)

Regards!
António Vitor

[ChloroPhil]

I'm glad you guys are getting good results, I'd hate to see you lose such pretty aquascapes. Could you guys post update pictures to show us where things are at this point in your tanks?

Thanks,
Phil

[António Vitor]

I have yet to gain courage to post those lausy present pictures...

I will post them...but I must have better future pictures to gain courage!
:D

like I said I will post a chronological presentation...
Sorry Phill, not yet!
;)

[EDGE]

I have been busy with school work. Beside that, I am in the process of redesiging the right side of the tank and taking the time to thin out the the large clump of crypt wendtii 'tropica'. If all goes as plan, it should come out much cleaner looking than a couple months ago.

Everytime i uproot any plant, it shows sign of Ca deficient for a week. I guess the plants are relying on the mulm in the substrate to substain growth.

hopefully the tank will be photo ready by Sept.

[ChloroPhil]

It had better be! If I don't see it in the showcase I'm going to be very mad at you. :)

Best,
Phil

[EDGE]

Phil,

will we see your tank in the showcase?

[ChloroPhil]

Unfortunately, not, for a couple reasons. The biggest being school and everything else I've got going on there hasn't been time to take care of a tank the way that I would need to for entry. In fact, I hardly have any tanks with water in them at the moment. To tell the truth, I sent my fish "off to stud" at one of my local club buddies for a while. He's trying to breed wild RSG into his lines and what do you know, I had a tank full of them. Hopefully I'll get them back after they've had some time to learn the ropes and all that.

Best,
Phil