Are discus for my idea???????

[3rdworldgod]

I have been contemplating starting a discus/small community tank. Now, before you hardcore discus fans out there reject this idea let me explain. I have been keeping various kinds of fish for around 20 years now (mostly community types) I have a 180 gallon tank and have been keeping South American cichlids in it for about 7-8 years now.
I recently decided I needed a fresh start and am thinking of converting it to a planted tank and having some small schooling fish like cardinals to go along with some discus. There are three huge pieces of driftwood and tons of rock in it now with sand as the substrate. The filters are a Fluval 304 & 404, two Emperor bio-wheel 400s and also a powerhead. I WILL NOT be doing a daily water change for obvious reasons, however, I am pretty good about keeping a tank clean and healthy. I am in Mobile, Alabama and our tap water is very good (I drink it) and have never had any problems in my various tanks with water quality (unless it was my fault). I'm also NOT going to do RO or anything over the top to my water other than weekly changes and keep it at appropriate temps. and ph levels etc. Do you think the sheer size of the tank would help alleviate any stress due to water quality for discus? I have found over the years that whatever I put in this tank does well because the fish have so much room. I have even kept relatively aggressive fish in a community with no ill effects because they can have their territory and don't bother the other fish unless their territory is threatend. Does anyone think 6 or so discus would work well with the idea I have for the tank? Their tankmates would probably be 20-30 cardinals, some plecs & catfish, and maybe a few other kinds of peaceful fish. I just want healthy fish and don't want to kill 6 discus (or $X00) for nothing. If any of you experienced discus keepers could provide me with reasons why this would or would not work, your input would be GREATLY appreciated.

[RedestWing]

Hello,

That does not sound to bad at all to me. Mind you I am a newbie somewhat and just got into Discus about 5-6 months ago. One thing you will learn, which I have is everyone does their own thing. Waterchanges are a big deal to alot of people, and I am not putting anyone down in this forum so noone take offense to what I am gonna say, but I do weekly waterchanges. Everyone here has gave me advice saying do water changes everyday or other day. DONT WORK for me. When I do that my discus get very stressed, dont eat, dont grow and lay around. I do weekly WC and they love it, and now I have seen them grow. Mind you I have a planted tank, which again everyone says is wrong to do, but my Discus grow and are very healthy now.

Your tank is twice the size of mine, so things may be different. But I just figured I can offer some ideas which have worked for myself. So I am sure there is others which may help you better.

[3rdworldgod]

thanks...
i've also heard that plecs can develop a taste for discus slime.
anyone had that experience?
just trying to be extra careful in choosing tankmates

[jules]

I have had my pleco since a baby with my Discus and have not had a problem. I do feed him regularly.

[RedestWing]

I got an ancestral bristle nose ..... they only grow to 4" or so, this way it is no problem. He leaves my Discus alone and keeps my tank really clean.

[falcon]

As RedestWing mentioned, bristlenose would be your best bet. As far as the success rate, it varies. I would strongly recommend you get the same size discus, as I have found that if you mix different sizes, you might be asking for trouble - the smaller one will/might isolate themselves and be in hiding most of the time. It got to the point that I have removed the smaller ones from the community tank and I am trying to grow them out in a bb tank. I think growing smaller discus in bb tank or getting 5" would be your best bet. That's at least what I have observed from my experience.

As you get into discus, you will discover that it offers challenges as well. I had my share of problems too and still have, here and there. Even if everything you do is right, they might develop something odd and die. I had one wild that just had a lump in the mid-section and would start losing weight like crazy and eventually I had to put him out of his misery. Then another would just go crazy in the tank, banging his head all over the tank and died too. My tank is 120g, planted, community too.

There are a lot of challenges that you will worry about; algea, co2 levels, ligth levels, ferts, etc.

This is not to discurage you as I would never trade planted for bb for a show tank but you have to be realistic as well.

As far as my schedule, I change probably 55% of water every week and I add aged water. I inject co2 on a controller and am playing with ferts right now.

For the fish, I have congo tetras, zebra danios, harloquin rasboas, different cats, clown loaches, one bristlenose placo, discus, cardinals, rummy noses, 4 amano shrimp(pretty big now) - lost one.

I hope this helps you a bit.

Falcon

[Howie_W]

Hi 3rdworld,

You don't mention if you are planning on buying juveniles or adults.

Regardless of how long you have been a hobbyist, it is often best to start out with young Discus, and grow them out to full size...this will give you the oppotunity to learn first hand, the daily requirements of your fish.

At the same time, placing juvenile Discus in a planted tank will pretty much guarantee that your fish will end-up being stunted, and never allowed to grow to their full potential. I think the best route would be to raise young fish in a BB tank, and then place them into your planted set-up.

Howie

[falcon]

I might disagree with Howie on 'stunted discus' in a planted tank. There are quite a few people that have raised jouvies in planted tanks and they were pretty successful at it. Mind you, some mentioned that the discus did not reach their full size potential of 8-9", I think rare anyway, as they were around 6 or 7" adult size.

From my experience, it might have to do more with placing different discus size in the same planted tank and intimidation factor. Once jouvies get intimidated, they don't eat as well and hide out a lot. This might hinder their growth.

Falcon

[RyanH]

Howie is correct. Baby Discus require pristine water to grow and be healthy. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to keep the tank water clean enough to grow out juveniles in a tank with substrate. This is personal experience here. It's very tough. Especially if you are new to Discus. They are not hard to keep but they do require very, very clean water. Grow them out barebottom and then think about plants and gravel... or buy adults.

... and I would love to see a 9" Discus! ;)

[3rdworldgod]

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments everyone.

I'm curious as to why a discus may end up stunted even in a tank as large as mine. I understand that poor water quality will stunt them, but I would think a tank my size (180) would kind of make up for the slightly lower H2O quality I may get with plants and substrate. There are a few reasons I think I may be able to get away with this--granted, I've never kept discus before, so don't think I'm ignoring your experienced comments. After reading your replies, I don't think I will plant as heavily as I may have otherwise. What I'm planning on is maybe 4-5 sword plants, onions, java fern, a little java moss (keeping it under control) and maybe a few other small plants for the front. I've found it's easier for me to maintain a very good water quality if there are plants in my tank. They tend to get rid of the fish waste pretty efficiently. What about snails also? There are two local species in my planted 29 that do not eat all the plants. They are both very small. The smaller of the two are smaller than a shrimp pellet, but are so numerous (there are probably thousands in my 29) I don't care if some get eaten. I also have a 6" & a 3" catfish in the tank now I'm planning on keeping--don't worry, they hide under a rock all the time so they will not pick on anyone. These two guys readily eat any food that hits the bottom. I also don't plan on overstocking it. I have sand for the substrate and it tends to stay pretty clean. I only envision having 4-6 discus when all is said and done--not counting the fodder fish like cardinals I'll add. I'm accounting for attrition in that estimate--I plan on starting with 6 like everyone said. Even if all 6 survive, that would work out to about 30 gals. per fish. As long as I maintain the water quality pretty well, a 30% water change a week should add plenty of fresh water. That works out to 54 gals. of fresh water every week. My LFS sells RO water, but I don't think that would be feasible $$wise for a tank this size. I may post a pic of the tank as it is now in the near future, just so anyone with a comment can see what I'm working with.

Thanks

I know I'm long-winded, but I'm just trying to be thorough in describing what I have and what I want to do.

[RyanH]

It's not so much your plants that are the issue. The substrate will quickly trap large amounts of waste that will inevitably pollute your water. Substrate is very good at making a tank seem clean when it is not at all clean enough for baby Discus. These fish are not Tetras or Barbs. They require very specific water conditions to be healthy.

As for the size thing. Think of it as living your entire life in a Port-o-Jon. Instead of living in a normal size Port-o-Jon, your are living in a slightly larger Handi-Capped accessible Porto-Jon. You are still living in a small contained area where your waste has no way to escape and you are still living in your own filth.

Do what you think is best. Sometimes we must find out things for our selves.

hth!

[3rdworldgod]

You guys may be helping me zero in on a happy medium. How about this? Since substrate is not recommended, if I still wanted to have some plants, how about planting in some tera cotta pots? I could probably hide the pots with rock work and substansially cut down on any substrate I may need for the plants. The java fern & moss I have can grow on driftwood and rock so no substrate needed for them. I still may go with a 1" or less layer of fine sand on the bottom of the tank, but that may be able to be cleaned and not trap as much waste (I may do some experimenting first). Also, I mentioned I have three very large pieces of driftwood in the tank. Does anyone know if that may emit some kind of pollutant that would hurt? The driftwood has been constantly submerged for well over ten years straight and I have never noticed it having any effect on the water quality.

I like the idea of growing juvies to adults (I have 13" Red Devil now that I grew), and if they reached a size of about 6"+ I would consider it a moderate success. If someone recommends buying adults instead, I'm not completely adverse to it--but my wallet may be!

thanks ya'll

[RyanH]

Just make sure that the rock you use doesn't create areas that are inaccessible to you when you are cleaning. If this ends up being the case you will be no better off then if you had a tank full of gravel. Waste can also get trapped under all of your decorations so make sure that you move things around when you are cleaning. I would also stay diligent with your water changes. for a tank of babies, 50% daily is the minimum that you should expect to do. That might be quite a bit of work when using a 180. Have you considered starting them out in something a bit smaller?

If you decide to use sand, use a VERY thin layer (none at all is better).

Driftwood will not hurt your water parameters. If anything it will help...

Your on the right track. Potted plants are better than a tank full of gravel. Ugly old barebottom is ideal though...

hth!

[3rdworldgod]

I had also mentioned the addition of small snails in an earlier post to help with the cleaning.

I would not want to put something in the tank the discus may eat that would clog their intestinal tract.

The angles I have in the tank with the snails don't seem to eat any of them.

[ronrca]

My discus eat snails! You can see the shells in their feces too. It can be dangerous it the snail is too big for the tract and become plugged up.

[3rdworldgod]

Then I will do my best to make sure there are no snails if I follow through and set up a discus tank.

Thanks for the advice.

[3rdworldgod]

I'm still thinking of more questions.

What about current?
Would discus prefer slow or medium water currents?
I can adjust the power head and other equipment I have to accomadate them.

Lighting?
If I have plants, I'm going to need light.
Are discus bothered by bright light?
There will be plenty of shade under the driftwood.

Also, what about quarantining?
If I go ahead and get the tank set up and have some smaller fish already added for a month or so to condition the tank before getting my discus, will quarantine be necessary since they are the first and only discus going into the tank?
I'm assuming the dealer or LFS will give me relatively healthy discus.
If I ever added more discus after the first group, I would certainly set up a qaurantine.
I could care less about possibly killing some cardinals with an imported disease from the discus.
I don't think anything the discus could introduce to the tank could bother the catfish. (One was stuck on a piece of driftwood for 2+ hrs out of water in the sun when I moved a few years ago and he's fine).

By the way, you guys are doing a great job helping me along with this decision. Even if I end up not doing a discus tank, I'll know more about them than most people. I WILL have a discus tank at some point.

[RyanH]

What are you using a power head for?

[3rdworldgod]

Just airation & to provide water current to the chiclids I have now.
They love it.
It's just something that is in the tank now.
If discus don't like it, it's gone.

I can also reduce the output on it, and it has a mechanical cotton filter attached to the bottom of it.

[RyanH]

Discus don't mind a little bit of current. Many will throw an Aquaclear 500 on their 55 gal. (or smaller) tanks and they don't seem to have problems. A/C 500's kick out a substantial amount of water. It wouldn't be a bad idea to keep one side of your tank a bit calmer and see how your fish respond. If you find them cowering in the calmer side then you may want to think about ways to reduce your current.

[3rdworldgod]

That's kinda how the tank is now.
The power head is pointed across the back of the tank to the far end so the current kind of dies down on the left side and the right side is pretty calm. The Emperor 400s on the back only create current at the top and it dissipates pretty quick. I also have an air tube attached to the power head so it spits out lots of little bubbles and all the fish I've ever had love to swim through it. That's not to say discus would like it--you never know until you try.

[3rdworldgod]

This is what I'm working with.
There is also a large piece of driftwood in the left corner I kinda cut off in the pic.
There would only be about 1/2-1" of sand in the bottom if I go with discus.
The guys in there now are diggers so they need it.

[3rdworldgod]

can anyone offer up any more ideas or suggestions for the tank set up?

thanks.

[RyanH]

If your Discus tank is set up like that you will have major problems. There is no way to keep it clean enough for your fish to be healthy. Also, Discus are open swimmers. They do not need caves and hiding places like Africans do. They need open space to move and grow. I suggest that you consolidate it to one or two pieces of driftwood and a VERY thin layer of sand. Again, barebottom is best.

[steve s]

Seems like you are in to this for the long run. The tank with
potted plants or plants afixed to some driftwood rather than
sand would make it a lot easier to clean and keep uo.
your mix of fish and filters sounds good to me.

If you are in it for the long run than take the time,
effort, and $$ to set up a grow out tank. The forum
has a great deal of info on how to set up.

No matter what anyone tells you your young fish
will need more attn. if you want them to grow out big and
Heathy. You will need to feed them 5 plus times a day while
they are small. It will make a mess of the water unless
you use a bare bottom which you can clean easy. It will
really not take long to grow fish 2-3 fish to 5 inches.
Than you can transfer them to the larger tank.
If you run into a problem you can see and deal with it faster in the smaller tank.

Just food for thought!!

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Steve

[Willie]

Frankly, I think you're going to waste a ton of money.

You haven't raised any discus before but you're starting out by asking the fish to adapt to your requirements. In fact, discus are very hard to keep alive if you insist on gravel, plants, etc.

If you want beautiful discus, its easy. Adapt the tank to them. Barebottom, lots of water changes all the time. Keep it an all species tank, with the possible exception of some corydoras species or bushynose pleco. Don't worry about the filtration, the water changes will keep the tank clean.

Maybe after a year or so, when you know the fish won't die, you can try a few different things. But starting out this way is going to lead you to a dead end.

We keep discus in a barebottom tank with only discus because that's what necessary to keep them thriving. Its not because we don't like a nicely decorated tank. Its not because we don't like other fish. Its because we've decided to give discus our highest priority. Otherwise, we end up with expensive, dead fish.

Respectfully, Willie

[3rdworldgod]

Well, I'm not exactly asking the discus to adapt to my tank.
The pic I posted is how the tank is set up NOW.
There is going to be a few months of work on the tank before I would EVER introduce discus. (I'm trying not to put myself in the poorhouse with a bunch of dead fish!) First, I've got to give away the other fish, break down the tank and do some maintenance and then get it set up again like I want it. Then I'm going to spend a few months with maybe only a small school of cardinals in it and tinker with and monitor the water quality to see if I can even make it habitable for discus and learn what it will take to maintain. I am not just going willy-nilly about this, and I am not hardheaded enough to insist on keeping discus if I don't think they will do well. If I'm not convinced I can keep discus in it, I will turn it into a community tank and quit bugging you guys! I'll be happy either way.

I got lucky yesterday and ran into a guy at my LFS that said he has been keeping discus for 20+ years and he has a heavily planted 75 gal aquarium on his back porch OUTSIDE!??? He said other than maintaining the temp sometimes, he has had no problems and it has been rather easy. He was actually buying more plants to put in the tank. He said he is using sandblasting sand for the substrate (we can be kinda redneck in the south). The people at my LFS, some of which are very knowledgable, say they do not know of very many people at all in the Mobile, AL area that keep discus, so I was lucky to happen upon someone with some good experience keeping them in my area. He suggested I try buying maybe two from my LFS and see how it goes before dropping the $$$$ for some of the more expensive strains. I know that is not ideal, but it will not cost an arm and a leg.

Again, I'm a (possible) newbie to discus but am NOT a newbie when it comes to keeping fish in general. I've spawned a couple of different SA chiclids (salvini, severums, firemouth/pink convict, etc.) and raised many to maturity without really trying--maybe I'm just lucky.

I'm not trying to breed discus or necessarily raise "show" quailty 9" fish.
I simply want some interesting, attractive and healthy fish.

I appreciate all positive and negative feedback I have received so far.
For all you naysayers out there, if I manage to prove you wrong, I'll be required to throw it in your face by posting a nice pic in a year or so. If I fail miserably, I'll glady join the barebottom advocacy club to keep people from being as dumb as me!

Thanks all!

[3rdworldgod]

By the way, I do like the idea of a barebottom "grow out" tank.
I plan on quarantining now anyway.
A grow out tank will at least afford me the luxury of seeing how the discus react to the tap water quality in my area and my maintenance procedures.

[Willie]

Of course discus can grow in a planted community tank with other species. There's a whole section on this forum of people who are successful. Here's what they do to be successful:

1. Be experienced with raising discus (not other fish)
2. Start with adults

If you're looking for advice, read this forum thoroughly. Don't start with taking advice from someone trying to sell you fish. You can get much lower cost starter discus here, with guaranteed quality and free advice, than any LFS.

You asked for feedback, so you got honest feedback.

Willie

[3rdworldgod]

This guy was not an employee of my LFS.
He was a random customer.
At first he was asking if they had any other discus besides the two they had for sale (they were not very good specimens).
See, I am learning something!!!!!
So he was not trying to sell me anything.
I talked to him in the parking lot.

[Carol_Roberts]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=9911

The link above is the best way for beginners to successfully grow out juvenile discus.

May I suggest you go look at these discus the guy is raising in a planted tank on his backporch and compare them to the pictures posted here.

Then if you still want to disregard all the good advice you've been given here and grow out two juvenile discus from the fish store in a graveled, planted tank - go for it. Many people can only learn from trial and error ;)

[3rdworldgod]

I'll be lucky if I can find him again.
I would like to see what his look like too.
I have a lot of thinking to do and a lot of time to do it, so maybe I'll come to my senses! ;D

I admire all you guys.
You are apparently very dedicated and good at what you do and you shoot straight with people like me.
That's the kind of people I like getting advice from.
Even if it is not what I want to hear.
I can't even begin to tell you how helpful you've all been with this.

I stand by my quote, "I'm a discus dummy!"
All of you, obviously, are not.

[rivwick]

A quick question at the risk of sounding dumb.... :-\

When you guys talk about discus size, do you include the size of the anal fin?

[jules]

Most don't include the tail.