To spawn or not to spawn...

[rivwick]

My two PB's in the planted tank had laid eggs in the thermometer tube but they all turned white and got eaten in several hours. The thing is that I am not sure if I have a true pair.

I think the pleasure in this hobby multiplies 1000 folds when you see eggs!! Although I never planned to breed, driving past the LFS made me stop and buy a 29g and a sponge filter.

So now the happy couple(??? not sure if they are a couple) are in the new tank. KH is about 3-4 and the PH is 7.0.

These are the eggs found in the planted tank. Luckily I took a picture before they were devoured!! The pic is attached...

I have also attached the pics of the two. I know it is hard to sex them but can anyone tell me if there are obvious signs ??? Many thanks

[rivwick]

this is the suspected male....

[rivwick]

and the suspected female.....

[Carol_Roberts]

I Can't tell from your photos. Did you see the breeding tubes? The females is larger - big enough for the eggs to pass through. The male's is smaller and more pinted on the end.

[rivwick]

I tried to spot it but couldn't. One of them had laid those eggs!!! Will try and post pictures of the underside.

[Carol_Roberts]

Tubes have to be extended from undersides for me to guess correctly ;)

[rivwick]

Thanks Carol. I tried to look at the male today while feeding but couldn't spot the tube. I will try and take a pic and post it.

Does it extend only when they are ready to spawn? I have two other adult discus in my planted discus tank but I cannot spot the tube in them either ???

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, you'll see the tubes drop several hours before they spawn

[rivwick]

oooops, no sign of any tubes on either one. Some one did lay those eggs and it wasn't me :-)

I have moved them in to a BB 29G of their own hoping to give them the freedom to spawn. I will be patient and hope to see the tubes soon. Perhaps it is the shock of being moved that is holding them back.

Carol, many thanks and I truly appreciate your efforts in helping us :-)

[hexed]

What size tank were they in when they laid eggs? They are tiny compared to the thermometer. You should still be able to see the female from the male. Look again and the one with the bigger "winky" is the female LOL. The male's looks like a pencil tip and after he's done it's almost gone were the females is still noticable, looks like a tiny tube. I say this because my female always has a little always sticking out :)

[rivwick]

Hexed, thanks for ur reply.

they were in a 60G planted tank with a pair of BD's and 4 juvenilles. I think everyone joined in egg eating party !

I tried my best to spot but no luck in finding the ''winky" :-) I will try and take a close pic and zoom it up. I must look like a pervert to them LOL

They seem to stick together right now. The one I suspect is the male is more adventurous and he is the first one to move during feeding. The other one follows him whereever he goes. Looks like she feels lonely even for a moment :-)

I just figured out that my earlier tests on PH were incorrect. Will it make a difference for spawning? I want to reduce the PH gradually so that it won't affect the pair. What is the best method to do this?

[Carol_Roberts]

There is no need to lower your pH. Discus do not like pH swinging back and forth. AS long as your GH is less than 9 you should get fertilized eggs to hatch

[rivwick]

Yes you are right. After my post I also read some of the previous posts by RandalB.

OK no messing with the water. My KH is about 3-4 and the GH is 7. So it should be ok.

[rivwick]

Still no sign of the tubes.... I guess I have to give them a lot more time to get used to the new tank....

I am struggling to keep the water temp down right now. This tank is in the shed which is covered but no air conditioning. Today the temp was around 88c.

If this doesn't work out I need to find space in the house to keep this tank as well. My wife wouldn't be too happy!! This is the second tank in one month!! :-\

[rivwick]

Ok. the water temp. is under control. But the two PBs are quite lethagic. they seem to spend most of their time at the bottom of the tank huddled together.

Any idea why?

I am doing daily 50% water changes. PH is high but stable. kh has reduced a bit for some reason (around 2 degrees)

[rivwick]

Finally I have eggs!!!!! ;D

I did something perhaps not so right and I am not sure if it has anything to do with the spawn but I added two more PBs to the breeding tank and next day morning I have eggs.

The pair seems to be quite protective and keep chasing the other two. Should I keep them in the tank to ensure that the mood continues and stops them from eating the eggs?

Will the breeding pair do permanent damage to the others? in that case I need to remove them.

Please heeeellllpppp....

[Carol_Roberts]

You won't be able to raise babies with the extra discus in the tank. If you plan to keep them in the tank for awhile watch them closely to make sure the pair don't beat them up . . .

[rivwick]

Thanks Carol.

The extra pair was being attacked so they have been moved out. The parents are busy fanning the eggs. I decided not to disturb them too much by watching them.

I did a 25% water change and very careful bottom clean during that time. Do I continue to do W/C's? and at what %?

Do I keep feeding the pair the same dosage?

Final question, do you think the introduction of the extra pair would have induced them to spawn or was it just coincidence?

[Carol_Roberts]

You will have to experiment to see how "sensitive" the pair is. Some are nervous, panic and eat the eggs if you do too much. Others you can drop the lid in the tank and they don't care. Most pairs eat less - some not at all. INtroducing the other discus may well have helped the pair bond.

[rivwick]

Yesterday evening most of the eggs had disappeared. Today at dawn there were still about 20 eggs left but it was too dark to see if they were black and I didn;'t want to startle them. I checked again at 7am and all the eggs were gone :(

I didn't get a chance to spot the tubes so I am still not 100% sure if I have a pair although both of them took turns at lovingly fanning the eggs. I saw in other threads that sometimes two females also can do it.

Hopefully I will see eggs again. Do I need to clean the pipe where they had spawned?

I guess patience is the only solution right now. Many thanks for your input and I will keep you updated of the progress :)

[Carol_Roberts]

Probably don't need to clean the pipe yet. . . better luck next time ;D

[rivwick]

OK, I have done a large w/c and cleaned the bottom. keeping my fingers crossed once again.

They seem to be quite shy of people. The breeding tank is in a shed where there is very little human or dog movement (only twice a day) and they seem to hide whenever I walk close.

More questions...

1)The tank is all glass without any shading at the back. Should I cover the back glass and make the tank a bit darker?

2)Would they like a light to be left on?

3) Should I get them used to movements around the tank or continue to provide the honeymoon suite?

I am willing to please and serve :D

[rivwick]

sorry but one more question.

The tank bottom is kind of reflective. Will that be a problem? ( I think the can see their own reflection).

Thanks a lot

[Carol_Roberts]

I keep a small lamp on 24/7. You can cover the sides and back of the tank if you think it mighht help - don't worry about the bottom if it is sitting on a solid surface

[rivwick]

Thanks Carol.

What about their shyness to me and other animals in the house? Should I gradually increase the movements around the tank for them to get used to it?

They run to a corner and huddle together whenever they see me coming :(

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, feed them a little bit every time they see you. Soon they will be running to the front of the tank to greet you ;D

[rivwick]

Ok will do. they don't seem to be much interested in eating while I am around as well but eat the food when they are alone.

I hope that with time they will realize that the ugly face across the glass is not a threat ;)

[rivwick]

One of the pair seems to be shaking sometimes, kind of like trying to do the twist. Is that a part of the mating ritual? If so who does it, male or female?

[Carol_Roberts]

Both male and female shimmy and shake at each other - especially while looking at the breeding cone

[blaze]

The tank is all glass without any shading at the back. Should I cover the back glass and make the tank a bit darker?

leave it or make it lighter, cause if the eggs hatch and they become freeswimmers the will tend to huddle in the darker areas , the darkest thing in the tank should be the parents {they will get dark-ish when spawing}.
IMO.

[rivwick]

Thanks to both of you

[rivwick]

Well, the shimming is very much on and they are cleaning the pipe. I think I can see the tubes as well. So far it seems to be that I have a pair. Unfortunately they are a bit too shy to take a picture. I don't want to use the camera flash and scare them as well.

I stopped the w/c for one day and yesterday added colder water. Hopefully all this will keep them going ;)

Will keep you posted.

[rivwick]

It turned out that the one I suspected to be the male is actually the female and vice versa.

The male seems have suddenly become aggressive and harasses the female a lot. I moved two other PB's to the breeding tank to see if that would help the male to be more kind to its partner (that happened last time and they spawned as well). No luck so far.

Any idea why the male is taking this change of attitude? The female has the tube out but no sign of eggs for a week now.

[Carol_Roberts]

He is trying to force her to spawn. IF he gets too rough put a divider in for a couple of days to give her a break

[rivwick]

Thanks Carol.

I will watch the situation and seperate the female if it gets too rough.

I think I will leave the other two PBs for a while in the same tank. Last time it helped them to spawn. Do you agree?

[Carol_Roberts]

What ever works ;D

[rivwick]

I had put a divider and all they did since then was to shimmy at each other through the glass. Now they are together in one partition and another pair in the other partition. The male is trying his best to get her to the cone but she doesnt seem to be interested.

I hope he will be successful and the presense of another male across the glass would make them protect the eggs. ;)

[rivwick]

I have put the pair alone again in their 29g for about a week now. No sign of any interest in spawning.

Is this normal?

Do I need to do anything to get them interested? I am doing daily w/c.

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, movoing them may break the cycle for several weeks - or not at all. She may be run down and not feel like spawning. Maybe she has worms or intestinal flagellates. . .

[rivwick]

Thanks once again Carol.

Their appetite also seems to be low so perhaps it is a touch of worms or flagellates. How can I tell for sure? Is there a treatment I can apply?

[grrrr8guy]

Carol id like to jump in and ask a question here?

You were saying that as long as the german hardness is less than nine that eggs will be ok as far as hardness goes.

With that in mind.

I use a conductivity meter that reads in microsemens.

I have only had 3 spawns hatch so far but every time they did its when the microsemens happened to climb to about 170 which when converted is slightly higher than 5.2 german hardness.


with that in mind why are we trying to keep microsemens under 100 to hatch eggs? I'm just trying to understand all this.


Grrr8guy

[grrrr8guy]

oops might have made a mistake with the dh gh thing


Says here that 1dg (German hardness) = 33 microsemens


I think you folks were talking about general hardness.


Grrr8guy

[Carol_Roberts]

17.8 = 33 us = 1 GH more or less ;)

[rivwick]

Well finally they laid eggs twice but both times they were eaten few minutes later. In the first attempt, the mail was fertilizing the eggs but the female was eating them. The second attempt, the male was eating them as soon as the female laid them.

I guess this is quite common. I thought of putting a divider and adding one more male to get the pair to bond and protect the eggs. Is that a good idea?

[Carol_Roberts]

I would let these two practice undisturbed until September 15th. Then, if they are still eating eggs you can try a different male.

[rivwick]

Many thanks for your advise Carol, I will keep you updated. :-)