PH drops in aged water

[kaceyo]

Hi all, Ive been checking into my tap water parameters in prep.for my Discus tank,and noticed that my ph drops from 7.6(highest on scale) to 7.2 after 20hrs. in 1gal. jug w/airline pumping bubbles into water. Isn,t it supposed to raise as co2 dissapates? Is this good,bad or indifferent? Also,I treated water w/StartRight and checked for ammonia after 10min. and it read 0 so no chloramines,just chlorine,right? I,m debating cycling the filter w/either a sponge filter in my current tank,which has 9 marble hatchets,1 lrg african knife,1 very large raphiel cat,two julii cory,s(which spawn regularly at w/c,s) and 2 kulliloaches,or running sponge in future Discus tank w/a goldfish (or?) or using something like amo.chloride to prime filter.Any reasons that would be a bad idea?.I used amo./chloride on a saltwater tank once and it worked well,but I got it from a friend and not sure where to get more.Well...any advice/info will be greatly appreciated.I cant wait till Iget my own little Diskies.You all do such a great job of answering everyones questions.I find I look forword everyday day to checking out the new topics and keep finding new areas on the site to delve into.Thanks again,kaceyo

[etr63]

Hi kaceyo

My PH out of the tap is 8.6 after ageing for 24 hours with air and heat it dorps to 7.0. I cycled my tank useing the fishless cycle method on this forum. Didn't want to take the chance of other fish bringing in any thing nasty.

HTH

earl

[kaceyo]

Earl,thats exactly what I was thinking.No unwanted bugs being transferd from outside fish.Do you know what causes the ph to drop?My tap water is only 1 degreeKH,I dont know if that has anything to do with it.I dont have a GH test kit.Is KH enough to go by or do I need both? We have pretty good water here(Seattle).Where did you get your primer from?I dont think you can use cleaning ammonia but I,m not sure.I want to start cycling the tank by Monday at latist. Thanks, Kacey

[etr63]

Hi Kaceyo

Im no water expert but the way I under stand it is when you have a low KH (below 4) the PH is not stable. My KH is 2 or 3 and when I was cycling my tank I was not doing WCs and my PH would drop as low as 6.4. Doing daily WCs keeps my PH at 7.0. there is a post in the beginners information index that explains the fishless cycle. You use plain clear ammonia non sented or suds. here is the link for the fishless cycle.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6357

There are products that you can use to add the bacteria to your tank to speed up the cycling process. Biospira is the best IMO but is unavailable until late in the year. I have used stress zyme to help jump start tanks and it worked well for me.

Earl

[Carol_Roberts]

I use clear household ammonia from Walmart.

Some municipalities add a product to raise the pH so the naturally acid water does not damage the pipes. Seattle has very soft, acidic water. This product disipates, so your pH drops.

[kaceyo]

Thanks Earl and Carol,That clears that up.I just want to make sure I,m not missing anything for the Big Day. When I primed my saltwater tank I was going by instructions from "REEFNOTES"in F.A.M.A. magazine and was told ammonium hydroxide or ammonia chloride (dry chemicals) was needed.Obviously thats not the case.I oubt salt or fresh water is any different in this case but chemical names sound more impressive.We do have Walmart(of cource) so no problem Thanx again(again) Kacey

[lesley]

Hi Kaceyo,

might I suggest that you ensure that you have a test kit of kH before you put your discus in your new tank??

Speaking from experience and seeing the damage that pH crashes can do to your fish (can kill and cause permanent damage), if you have soft water you will need to make sure that you know what your kH measurements are and that you have the materials on hand to deal with it.

Lesley

[kaceyo]

Thanks leslie, Ido have a KH test kit,it tests at 1 degree.Evan after adding 1 tsp.salt p/gal.(for my guppies)it only reads 2 degrees.My two current tanks run at a PH of 6.2 to6.6 and are stable but a bare bottom tank will probably be different.Does salt help to stabilize the PH? what materials would I need to have on hand if PH crashes,or better yet how do I avoid it?I was planning on aging the water and using StartRight/AmQuel and salt for new guys.Will this be enough minerals for such soft water?I wasn,t going to mess w/PH.Carol,how do you come up with those cool pics so fast?(good looking kids) it,s so helpful,Kacey

[Carol_Roberts]

Table salt will not raise the KH. I don't know a whole lot about low GH/KH water. Epsom salt will raise GH, baking soda will raise KH for a while. Daily water changes will help to keep your KH stable too.

[etr63]

I have been told that placeing crushed coral in a fine mesh bag (like the type used for filter media) and hanging it in the storage barrel will raise the KH. I have not tried it personally but I plan on trying it in the near future. I will be trying in on water that I dont need to use for water changes until I know what affect it has on my PH.

HTH

Earl

[kaceyo]

Yes,crushed coral could work.Let me know.How about using saltmix for saltwater aquariums?It has the salt new little fish need plus buffers,minerals and trace elements.Seems like this would work well.Has anyone done it? Kacey

I also have low KH and the best way for me is to place the
crushed coral inside the Tanks.
In the preparation bins I do not adjust the KH at all.
I only have to change the crushed coral maybe 1 a month. Sometimes it last a little longer.
If you decide to use it rinse it well before adding it.

Ronald

[kaceyo]

Ronald,How much coral and how much does it change the KH? From what to what?Also what PH is your tap and tank water? Thanks,Kacey

I use about a small handful for the 55 gal Tanks. If the pH starts to raise I know I have to much.
The KH is before around 1 dKH and after it is about 2-3.
From the Tap the KH is 1 and the ph (I know it is unbelievable) 9.5 before aging. After 48 hrs it is around pH 8.
Because of that I use recon. R/O where the KH is also around 1-2 with a conductance of around 250 and for the young ones 300. The pH in the prep bins is around 6.5-7 depending on the condition of the R/O unit.
The pH is around 6.4-6.6 in the Tanks.
The crushed coral depletes slowly over time so you won’t get a larger change in a short period.
The result is a pretty stable pH over a period of 2 days without W/C. That’s the longest I went until now without W/C. I normally do daily W/C's.

Ronald

[kaceyo]

WOW!!! That is high.Do you use a ph meter or salt (highrange) test kit? I suppose mine could be that high as mine is at the top of the test kits range,but goes down to 7.6 w/ageing and airation.I had completely ruled out use of an RO unit BECAUSE of my low KH.Should I re-evaluate this?Any takers on my question about saltmix (for saltwater aquariums) with youngsters in low KH water?I dont want to mess with the tap (or tank) water any more than I really need to.Crushed coral sounds good for ph stab.in tank,though. Kacey

[kaceyo]

Now that I think about it,did you mean you use a product for reconstituting RO on your tap water? I can be kinda sslloooww sometimes!

The reason why I changed to R/O was because I had to do something about the pH.
In order to achieve that I have tried peat, Muriatic acid and a range of products from the lfs.
Except the peat everything else stripped the Tap from the remaining KH leaving me with pretty much no KH, as well in most cases the conductance skyrocket. So I would have to alter the water again. I then decided if I have to adjust all that I might as well start out with R/O, recon it with Joe's formula (http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=15776;st art=msg169577#msg169577) and stabilize it with Crushed Coral in the Tank. I could not use Tap-R/O mix because of the pH. So in the end I alter the water (hoping to) know what the heck I am doing.
Drawback of only using R/O is the $$ of the water.
I only have 3 55gal, 1 125 gal and 1 29gal so it is still not that bad with the cost.

If you just want to stabilize your water Crushed Coral is one way to go. April uses Ouster shells if I recall right. I have not used that so can't give advice on that. I just know that April is pretty happy with that route.

LOL Kacey, I am always slow.

Ronald

Almost forgot. I use pH meters from Pinpoint.

[kaceyo]

Thanks Ronald,for taking time to explain all that.I get it now (I think).Makes me glad my ph dropes into the high 7s so easily. Kacey

[April]

hi. my water is very soft. very similar to seattle as im jsut above..in vancouver canada. lotts of rain.
i use calcium chloride. about 1 tablespoon to each 10 gallons each wc. keeps my ph up. if your sponges get full..you ph slides fast.
crushed coral is good..but i find crushed oyster shell works better. i add it to a nylon or netting in the filter.
you can also use kent ro right to get your minerals up..and then your ph will stay more stable.

[kaceyo]

Hi Carol(sorry,Iment April and just noted the "modify"option)
,Been noticing your posts and stuff.I used to use cal.chloride in myreef tank.Gave up reefs caus I saw too many dead and dieing animals in stores and I love the ocean too much to be a part of that.Discus are a sustainable-breedable and beautiful animal.That sounds like a good idea.Can I use it w/juvinals?Those babies are gonna have the best i can do for them so I got to get this all figured out soon.Thanx,Kacey

[kaceyo]

Sorry,I ment April.Dont know who Im talkin to half the time.

[Nightowl]

Kacey, Hagen makes a liquid product called"KH booster" and PH stabilizer. It is CaCO3, calcium carbonate. Small amounts of this will raise your KH to the desired level. You should try to stay around 50 ppm KH to avoid PH crashes. Of course anything that raises KH will usually raise PH as well.
When you use coral, etc. you raise the GH to high levels usually....good for growing, not good for breeding.

good luck! J.T.

[XeBurnout]

Mr. Kaceyo,

I've spent a lot of time reading discus message boards but very rarely post to them. I did so this morning on this forum in the general topic to someone about their pH.

The reason I posted is because if there is one thing I notice it's how people love to worry about their pH. I'll admit it's important but it's more important to look at everything. pH should be way down on your list of things to worry about.

Your ph is dropping in aged water for probably two reasons. First, as the water absorbs Carbon Dioxide, Carbonic Acid is formed lowering the pH. Second, as the water heats up it's ability to hold Oxygen lowers, as the concentration of O2 goes down you have more of the first thing going on. These are all natural things, don't go nuts and overshoot what you want. Throw an airstone in the water, drive the CO2 down. See what you have when you are all done.

Carol (I remember her from an old message board I used to read!) is exactly correct when she said table salt would not change your hardness. Think of hardness as just the amount of Calcium and Magnesium in it. Table salt (Sodium Chloride) has neither. Some salts, like the ones to regenerate some Ion Exchange resins are Calcium Chloride, some road salt is like that now, but I don't recommend putting that in your fish tank.

You can read my post on pH in the general topic, but keep this in mind, if your hardness etc. is low make small changes to effect pH. If you try raising your hardness to "hold' your pH you will have to make bigger changes to get the desired effect. You'll end up chasing your chemistry all over the place.

Ask someone like Carol where you want you conductivity and hardness, fix that first, then adjust your pH. Nine times out of ten the pH will follow anyways.

Respectfully,
Phil

[kaceyo]

Thanx,Phil Actualy,I was not planning on trying to change the ph,I just didn,t understand why it droped after 24hrs of airating instead of rising as C02 dissapated.As the thread ran on I became concerend about my low KH(1dH) in a tank for growing out young fish.Maby the low KH is why my first Discus(long ago) never got above 5" and never even paired up,let alone bread(breeded?)...spawned.Under developed insides? Or could of been something in the well water I used at that time.I don,t want tomake the same mistake again. Thanks, Kacey