Yikes! Beginner desperate for immediate help!

[Robin]

I just got my first aquarium, and I've gotten a lot of bad advice along the way. I have a 46 gal. tank with a biowheel filter. I initially got 9 barbs and two algae eaters. When I became fascinated by two discus, I was told that they would be fine with my other fish, so I bought them two days ago.

They are so stressed! One of the discus seems like its still okay, but the other is a dark color, its eyes look kind of cloudy, and it has not eaten today.

I don't want to kill them, but now that I'm doing more research, I see that my tank is just not set up for discus at all. I have raised the temperature to 80 degrees, but I can't go much higher without endangering the barbs. I have removed the carbon filters, and I did a 20% water change. The pH is stable at about 6.5.

I need some suggestions for making my tank hospitable for these two fascinating creatures FAST.

Thanks for your suggestions!

Robin

[Robin]

I have now read some more from your extremely useful website, and let me add some more information. The two discus that I have are brown, beautifully shaped (based on the postings I've read) and about 4.5-5 inches in diameter. I don't know their age.

I have tested the water and the water chemistry is fine. The bottom of my tank is gravel and ithe tank has fake plants in it. The water in my area is treated with chloramine, so I treat the tap water for that. I did not know until now that the water should be "aged," so I have been using tap water that I have treated. I always try to match the temperature to the temp of the water in the tank. I have been feeding them blood worms, but the one hasn't been eating. (Plus the barbs are getting really fat.)

Having continued my research, I see that a larger water change is in order. I know I am probably in over my head, but, having fallen into this completely by accident, I am truly fascinated by these gorgeous creatures and I want to modify the tank to accommodate them if I can keep them alive.

Your suggestions are most appreciated.

Robin

[pcgamer02]

If you wanna keep the discus. Your gonna have to lose the Barbs and algea eaters. THe barbs will stress this discus out until they all die. Your filter and PH are both good. Discus are not the best fish to put in a first aquarium. Make sure your Amonia and NItrate/Nitrate Levels are good also. Do you have gravel in the bottom? Its a lot easyer to keep discus w/o gravel. Good Luck with your fish.

-Paul

Edit, I forgot to mention that even if your barbs are being nice to the discus they still wont do well at the tempurature your discus should be at. (85+)

[jared]

pc's right about the barbs. When they are gone, raise the temp to 84-86 leave it alone for a day, then raise to 88-90 if your heater goes that high. On the algae eaters it depends on the size relative to the discus. On the issue of aged water. Yet is it preffered. No it is not mandatory. Aging is just suppose to improve the parameters of the water. It looks like you are okay and a bigger challenge facing you right now might be how clean the water in the tank is. So my advice to you for right now would be to start changing 50-75% of the water every day. Lose the gravel. If the eyes are cloudy add salt to the tank 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons replace with water changes. If you see no improvement after two days at another tbs/10gallons. The dark body color could be stress or disease. You need to find out which one because meds can be harsh on a stressed fish. Look for tattered fins, body slime (patches of mucous visible on the sides of the fish when looking at it while turned 45 degrees). Check the feces if any. White is bad. If there is not body slime or signs of xternal parasites and the salt/water changes/heat does not help it is probably internal. If there is not feces at all it is probably hex. If there are segmented feces, it is tapeworms. If there is slimey white feces it is hex. Hex can be treated with metro. Look for a med in the lfs that contains this. If it is tapeworms treat with prazi, this might be harder to locate. Since you might not have a lot of time here, you could try walmart. They carry some fizzing meds by jungle labs. Check out the parasite clear and the fungus clear. If you decide to use the fizzing products make sure there is an air stone in the tank running heavily.HTH
Jared

[Robin]

Thanks so much for all the useful information! I will work on this right away, and let you know how things turn out. One question: what kind of salt is best? Can I use ordinary table salt, or is there some special kind I need to find?

Robin

[Howie_W]

Hi Robin,

You have a couple things to consider;

Do you have room for another tank? Bottom line is that Discus are schooling fish, and best kept in groups of 6 or more. Your current tank converted to a bare bottom set-up with daily water changes would be suitable for the two fish you currently have, and allow you to add two more. Perhaps you could get a smaller tank for your other fish, such as a 29 gallon.

If you don't want to add another tank, then the other fish, along with the gravel have to go. Your bio wheel should be fine for now, but you should consider adding a Hydro sponge, and also a prefilter sponge to your existing bio-wheel set-up.

For now I would keep everthing simple.
-Discus in a bare bottom tank.
-Temp. up to 86F
-Salt...you need to use rock salt (sodium chloride) available in any lfs. Add after water changes and replace as needed in smaller amounts based upon the size of your water change.
-Food...hold off on feeding for a few days. The salt will help reduce stress and clean out their digestive tracts. Discus need a balanced diet...check out the the nutrition section here for what to feed, but initially you should have some quality flake food on-hand, and think about things such as brine shrimp, and beef heart to start with.

Please keep us posted on how your fish are doing!

Howie

[falcon]

Robin, how long has your tank been running? Did you cycle it? I suspect under two months. If that's the case, you were too quick to get discus.

I would try to remove the other fish as soon as you can. Try trading them back to your lfs for some food or something like that. Then, I would slowly raise the temperature to about 88F(over a period of three days or so). At the same time, as mentioned, I would start adding salt at 1tbs/10g. Make sure you dissolve the salt in a container with some aquarium water and add it slowly. In your case you can dissolve 5tbs of salt in the water and pour in a bit at a time every two hours or so(make into four portions). You can buy salt at your local pharmacy as it's much cheaper than what they sell at lfs(you can buy sea salt).

When you're doing w/c, make sure that you're replacing the salt content. So, if you're changing 20g, you should be putting back 2tbs of salt. After four days or so, you can increase the salt content to 2tbs/10g and keep the salt treatment for up to two weeks.

After a couple of days of salt treatment if things don't improve, you might look into medicine treatment based on what is happening in the tank. I would do the salt and heat first and go from there.

I would do about 20% w/c daily during the salt treatment. You will only have two fish in there and the bio load is not big.

falcon

[Robin]

Thanks for all of the advice. I got rid of the barbs and I did a 30% water change. I've increased temp to 82 degrees, will increase to 84 tomorrow, but that's as high as my heater goes. I just added the salt. I will do another water change tomorrow. One still looks healthy, and the other one, well, he isn't dead yet is about all I can say.

Keep your fingers crossed! And thanks again for the very useful help! I'll let you know how things turn out!

Robin

[Robin]

P.S.-- The tank was cycled for two months before I got the barbs, so its been running for about three months. I also contacted the store where I bought the discus and I think the pH at the store was higher than here, so the fluctuation might have stressed them. Otherwise the water chemistry looks very good to me. Though my water changes have been in the 20-30% range, the fish aren't eating and I've been cleaning out uneaten food rather religiously, so the "bio-load" (if I understand what that means) shouldn't be too great.

Thanks again!

[pcgamer02]

Also if your doing water out of the tap, add dechlor drops. (Prime,Amaquel..etc..)

[Robin]

I am happy to report that both discus seem to be doing great for now. (I have figured out that they are Heckels.) I have a couple more questions, though.

First, I was told that my biowheel is not appropriate for the discus long term. Its hard to explain, but my aquarium stand was designed by an artist who incorporated a cover for the biowheel filter, so its a little hard to change it. Is it okay, or can I modify it to accommodate the discus?

Second, I was also told to remove the carbon filters, but I'd like to replace them with something else to improve the water quality. Any suggestions?

Third, the frequent water changes are very cumbersome. I have heard that there is a device that can be attached to the kitchen sink. How is the water dechlorinated using such a system? (My tap water contains chloramine, so it has to be treated.) Is this an effective option? My sink is about 25 feet from the tank. Is there a particular brand that you would recommend?

Fourth, maybe a stupid question, but when I do a partial water change (say 15 or 20 percent), do I treat the water based on the amount of water I am changing or on the volume of the tank?

Finally, I was told that if I got a third one they would all be happier. I have a 46 gal. tank. The two I have are about 4.5 inches in diameter. Does that sound like a good idea?

Thanks again for your help. Any suggestions are most appreciated.

Robin

[Howie_W]

Hi Robin,

Glad to hear your fish are doing better.

Filters: Your bio-wheel filter is fine, as long as the cover to it is allowing it to receive oxygen and work properly. Many of us use power filters on our tanks, and make sure to include a pre-filter sponge, placed over the intake. Along with this, you should get yourself a sponge filter...the Hydro sponges work well.

If you don't like the bio-wheel, you could switch over to an aquaclear...the 300 model would do fine for your size tank. A prefilter sponge can be slipped over the intake tube here as well.

Always keep up regular maintenance on your filters; rinse the prefilter sponges (each time you perform a water change) in your removed tank water. Power filters should be cleaned regularly as well (some people do this once a week.... depending upon your bio-load, I wouldn't go longer than 4 weeks)...the foam blocks inside them can also be rinsed in used tank water, and the insides scrubbed out.

Water changes:
If you have chloramines in your water, you should be aging your water for 24 hrs. before changing it. Easiest way to do this is with a storage barrel, a pond pump, and a heater. Place a heater in the barrel to keep the temp. the same as your tank. You also need to aerate the water to maintain the same parameters as your tank...a small airstone works well. Some people use rubbermaid containers, but anything will do.

The hose you're referring to is called a Python...available at any lfs, or on-line. It attaches directly to your faucet. You can use this to send water to your holding tank.

More fish:
Discus are schooling fish. The more the merrier. However, there's always a pecking order. Two may be happy together, while three's a crowd. Four is better, etc...

Don't forget any new fish must be quarantined for 6 weeks before placing with your other fish.

Howie

[CliffsDiscus]

Robin,
In your area be aware the KH and HD is running very low.
There were a couple of tanks that have crash in the East
Bay Area recently. Albany Aquarium probably bought those
Heckels from Ben, I have seen a few months back along with the Wild Greens.

CliffsDiscus

[Robin]

Hey, aren't you the guy I called the night my fish got sick? Thanks for the information that evening!

I don't know what "KH" and "HD" are, or what it means for a tank to "crash," or what I need to do to prevent any problems. My heckels are from Albany Aquarium. I was planning to get the third one tomorrow, so I would really appreciate additional information.

I just adore these fish! I've never had fish before, so this has been a real learning process for me.


Thanks!

Robin

Hey Robin


I don't know what "KH" and "HD" are

"KH" Is carbonate hardness. AKA....Buffering capacity or alkalinity.
Its what keeps your water from 'crashing' (Im getting to that ;) )

"DH" Is total hardness....EVERYTHING ELSE including carbonate hardness that is dissolved in your water
eg. Calcium...magnesium...dissolved organics etc.


or what it means for a tank to "crash,"

A pH "crash" means that the Ph of the tank drops rapidly.(dangerous) Main cause is usually low buffering capacity or "KH".


I was planning to get the third one tomorrow
Unless you quarentine the new fish for at least 6 weeks, you run the risk of introducing disease to your fish. As long as the two you have are getting along fine I wouldnt get in a panic to add more.

Tony

[Robin]

Thanks for the information. What causes a rapid drop in pH? What can I do to prevent it? I had no idea this water chemistry stuff would be so complicated...

On the plus side, they are so graceful and fascinating. They will eat from my hand, and and they do a lot of synchronized swimming to entertain me.

Thanks for all of the info...

Robin

[Carol_Roberts]

You need to test your water for hardness and buffering capacity or ask the water company. If you have medium to hard water you will not have to worry about sudden pH drops (except from unaged tap water). If you have soft water you will need to learn how to avoid pH crashes in the tank. Normal biological processes use up buffer and acidify the water. IF you have lots of buffer there's no problem, but if your water source is from say rainwater you have to be very careful.