EMERGENCY=WHITE SLIME COAT HELP

[Shari]

OK here is the deal. 7 large Discus in a 120 gallon - all living happily for over three years.
Water parems normal '0' PH 7.6, rock on bottom, some driftwood, no plants. I use normal faucet water with Prime.
I have an Eheim canister under tank and a large Emporer w/bio wheels hanging from back. Temp 83-84, down from 85.

Started new job three weeks ago and due to training did cut back on w/c's down to 2-3 50%/weekly. About 4 days ago noticed my large blue cobalt looked dark and wasn't friendly as usual. He and all still eat pretty well though.

I did a 50% water change and vowed to get back on track of my usual w/c's at least every other day. Over last two days every fish in the tank, especially the Cobalt has developed
a horrible white coating, some covered, others in streaks that almost look like that discus disease - or Chiladonella or plague? what do I have here? (the cobalt looks almost web like on certain angles which is why I'm really scared) This came on too fast !!!!
I've NEVER had anything like this. Sorry can't send photos.

I put some salt and Quick Cure in at lunch today since I come home. Can you guide me. Doing w/c now.
I have more Quick Cure, also Meth Blue in house, as well
as a couple types of antibiotics, and also metro.
I'm close to fish stores so let me know asap what you think please. These are my babies and I feel horrible.

[Shari]

oh - by the way - no new Discus or other fish added.
I have a few cories on the bottom and one ram who are doing ok so far.

[Shari]

sorry here I am again. Thought of a couple details may help.
Looking at pics of Chilodonella it's close...no circles but like
from over their heads, and across the sides masses of white coating. Certain areas have thick white lines as long as 3-4" or short as 1" - as if you took Elmers white glue and drew a line on the fish.

one other thing...hasn't been any scratching or flicking that I have noticed when I'm around at night.
Their eyes are darker looking today though, but still all come up to eat.
let me know what you think....I'm exhausted from worry the past three days....

[Shari]

I'm really not crazy but here I am again. I think I have it.
One of my browns, who is almost black right now has suddenly developed perfectly round circles where the white slime coat 'was'.
I'm going to get the M. Green back into the water since my w/c today. I have a couple good books and all say it's a fairly good and fast treatment for it. Let's hope !!!!!!!!!

Any other ideas would be appreciated however.
I've never had this....how did I get this?

[ah_kiat]

does your country have interpet 7 Anti Slime and Velvet ?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Can you get a hold of some Furan2. Double doze 10 day. 50% wc daily and 2 tbsp. per 10gal of salt. You'll start seeing result within 5 days but keep medicating for 10 days.

Dan

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Oh yeah. I would reduce the Ph to 6.0
Temp.84

Dan

[Shelomi]

Sheri
I had the same thing happen awhile back. I am not an expert but here's what I did and all fish survived. Kept temp lower around 83. My Ph is naturally around 6.8. Added salt as per salt treatment ratio listed on this website. I did 75% water changes daily and added formalin at 2 drops per gal everyday for at least 2 weeks then I was able to switch to every other day for 1 week. I never did the "change water after 8 hours" which some do when adding 3 drops per gal. Malacite Green and formalin didn't work as well. My fish were as bad at one point as you could possibly imagine. They were black spotty, white dusty appearance, eyes of some were cloudy. When things got really bad about day 3 or 5 (can't remember exactly) I did a salt dip on each fish. I made up the salt dip according to the directions here:

"Discus Salt Dip Methodology
Type of salt to use:
The type of salt used should be non-iodized and contain no ‘free flow’ or other additives (e.g. no iodine or sodium ferrocyanide etc. I have used ‘Freshwater Aquarium Salt’, rock salt and sea salt. If purchasing non-aquarium salt please read the packaging carefully as current trends show an increase in the use of additives even in natural products such as rock salt (UK).

If new to Salt Dipping
If new to dipping fish a good place to start would be with a 1.5-2% salt solution; for more experienced users I would suggest you start with a 3% solution immediately. The solution should be made up in a clean bucket or spare (fishless) tank. Whilst it is preferable to weigh out the correct amount of salt e.g. for a 2% solution one would use 20g of salt per litre of water, the following approximate measure are given for the sake of simplicity.

1 TABLESPOON of salt approximates to 15grams.
Therefore 1 TABLESPOON of salt per litre of water equates to a 1.5% solution

· If your bucket/tank contains 10 litres of water you would add 13 tablespoons of salt to get an approximate 2% salt solution
· Or - If you place 3 US gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket you would add 14½ tablespoons of salt - to get an approximate 2% solution. ( I used this solution, They were so bad off I felt it couldn't hurt)
· It is important to ensure that the salt is fully dissolved before placing the fish in the bucket/tank and that the water temperature matches the tank from which the fish are taken.
As you will need to multi-dip throughout the day, place a heater in the tank, if you do not want to have to remake new salt solution each time;
Before you place the fish in the solution please remember that:
· The length of time that you can leave discus in the solution varies greatly from a few seconds to 30 minutes
5 minutes would be a reasonable average (smaller fish took much less time)
· The time they tolerate the dip DECREASES with the number of dips performed in a 24 hour period
· The fish MUST NOT be left unattended
· During the treatment your fish may show some interesting discolouration, do not worry this is short term.
Place the fish into the solution as quickly and as carefully as possible - then observe closely.
Initially, the respiration of the fish will increase substantially, 120 gill beats per minute is not uncommon. At some point, the fish will keel over on its side - and it is at this point that the novice should remove the fish and return it to its tank. If you are confident and experienced in dipping you may want to extend the time that the fish is exposed to the saline solution - I have found it effective to leave the fish in the solution until the gill beats have slowed to around 20 bpm - irrespective of whether the fish has keeled over or not."
Once the fish are returned to their tank they should within a few minutes regain their composure. If they appear to be in difficulty, the fish can be supported using your hands and then gently pulled backwards through the water at a slow pace - so that water is forced over the gills. (I have had to do this a few times and never lost any fish, it can be scary though)
I have dipped 2 times a day for several days and there has been no lasting negative effect. It is important that the dips continue until all visible signs of infection are gone.

After the salt dips and the formalin, the fish improved greatly. I couldn't initially decide if my fish had chillodonella or Columnaris. Even tried a microscopic slide but best I could tell it was Columnaris. I can't even to this day tell you for sure. I do know I divided the fish into two tanks and treated one with marracyn II and the other tank with the formalin. The formalin tank recovered much quicker. Now I have had 1 repeat outbreak in the last several months but it was mild and only occured if I missed a couple of water changes. When that happens I just do the water change, add sea salt and formalin treatment and it always goes away quickly.
Again I am not an expert but it works for me. Just keep the temp down, lights off and ALWAYS add extra O2 when using formalin. The salt bath was the catalyst which is why I stressed this in such detail.
Deb

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Again I disagree with ya buddy. Lowering the PH not only will make the meds more effective but bacteria does not survive in acidic water.

Dan

[Shari]

Deb and Dan,

Thanks to both of you so much for feedback.
My first chance back online this weekend.

First, Dan, yeh - my first year with Discus I kept them at 6.5-6.8 ph. For sure less bacteria problems. I went up to my normal 7.6 over time and since they did well - and it's cheaper- stayed there. Like everyone says on this site, don't mess with it if you don't have to. But bacteria is a bigger problem with higher ph for sure.

It's been a few days. All my Discus are alive, eating and for past two days much more energetic and friendly than when I first wrote. My cobalt has lifted off alot of the slime and brightening up, however every Discus in the tank is still quite coated. I only guessed on the Chilodonella due to the one brown having the three-four circle shapes across his back where the white slime had like lifted - he's so white it was brown circles...they have white edges on their tails, but their fins are normal and show no breathing or gill problems so far.. - weird?

I do have access to Furan 2 (within a couple days at least)
I guess I'm still unsure if I'm dealing with a parasite or bacteria or both, but the Quick Cure, though not cured exactly, has definately helped them. The cobalt got it first, his slime coat is now looking better than those who followed after him. Only one has cloudy eyes. All have huge appetites which shows good thing too.

Deb I have only done actual dips a couple times but I appreciate all your time with the info for me - I used to use salt more but hear that with a water softner in house I have to be careful of sodium levels so have cut way back if at all these days. There is salt in tank now as well though

So, since I wrote, there has been a full 50% w/c of this tank each day, remedicated afterward also. I'll check them out again tomorrow and try to decide if it's the formalin they need or the Furan I guess. I still can't believe in less than three days every fish got this. The pics in my book, and comparing them, are a total cross of new discus disease, chilodonella but all I know is one looks web pattern to some degree, another three are just coated all over their sides, and the one had circles...it's really weird and scary. But they are huge, prior healthy as can be Discus so I'm just praying we make it.
I'll keep you guys posted. thanks again so much.
Shari

[Shari]

My follow up as it's been a few days:

I really think they may have had Discus Plague after all.
The three cirlces on the one fish were it and for a few hours only, so I think a fluke....my Discus book explained the exact systems on a daily basis for the plague and I had the exact same, exept they didn't have it bad enough insofar as huddling together on the bottom of the tank.

Anyway, another couple days went by since last writing, 50% w/s each day with full vacuming too, and I did use Melefix and Quick Cure each night, since they were on that already. Right around day 10 or so everyone had sloughed off the slime coats, fins starting clearing up and though looked skinnier and raggy for a couple more days, are almost totally back to normal now. Everyone survived, eating hearty and gaining weight already.
Don't know how this happned, but I'm grateful we seem ok.
Now I have ammonia spike I can't get rid of...another issue...

Shari ;D :D

[Carol_Roberts]

Glad they made it through Sharri ;D Keep up water changes salt. Try to keep ammonia at zero. Filters will bounce back in a few days