Altum Angels anyone....

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I have always admired this wild angel as much as discus for their beauty, gracefullness and finnage, and always wanted them. I now have them and they are even more stunning in person than in the books.

hope you enjoy them..

-al

[brewmaster15]

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[brewmaster15]

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[paletka]

Hi Al,
Can you let me know price? and can you save 12 for me?.
Do you have any red wild discus at the time?.

thank you
Chris

[Mike_T]

al,

they look great. altums are second only to discus in my book. and it's a close second.

-mike 8)

[Fishin dude]

Hey AL,
I have a couple Brazil Silvers..what is the main differences between the two strains?? :)Lee

[aloha_discus]

AL they are the most beautiful of the angels. I have a half dozen from 36 that I picked for their finnage,size and coloration after having them for 3 years now. You know that I am in for some of the smaller ones. It may take a while for me to raise enough money for them as I have had to sell nearly all my discus stock because of some problems but I still have 10 breeder size left that I will try to keep.

Let me know how much they are and I will work on getting the funds for them.

Mahalo, Ike

[yogi]

I'm not an angel fish person, but to answer Lee's question. The Altum is by far the tallest of all angels.

[tony1313]

Nice!!!!!!!!! I'm not a big angle fan but those are pretty sweet.
:angel:

[brewmaster15]

Hi all, Thanks!

I'll be posting a sale in the commercial section as soon as They are ready to go. Right now I am just enjoying having them. They are a truely beautiful fish.

Lee, Jerry is right on the height. Brazil silvers (scalares) are a nice enough Angel.. I have a few too. But true Altums are much taller ... The finnage blows you away when you see them.

They are also only found in Columbia, to the best of my knowledge.


hth,
al

[wildthing]

My understanding is that they can be found in either Colombia or Venezuela or Brazil, but all from that region where those countries have mutual borders. They are more easily caught from the Colombian end of things...
They are very seasonal and not nearly as ubiquitous as Scalare or Dumerili
If you look on a map you can see that there are some rivers that they share. The country they come out of depends on the country the fisherman went in from .
Altums ( just like Discus) don't carry passports and have no preference between Portuguese or Spanish.
:)
An adult altum in full color is a majestic fish.

[JeffreyRichard]

Altums are from the Orinoco River basin ... this runs through Venezuala and Columbia. The basis extends into the very Northern portions of Brazil.

There is a lot of information on Altums at the following sites ...
http://finarama.com/tba/
... Michelle Rickets has done a lot of work with wilds, and has good reference material

http://www.angelfish.net/yabbse/index.php ... The Angelfish Forum II has a good discussion of altums

[Mike_T]

has anyone found documented & varified proof of anyone witnessing them spawning in captivity?

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/fornback.htm

-miket 8)

[brewmaster15]

I have looked around for distributions cited in books and found little on specifics... but this From the Aqualog Book on South American Cichlids iv....pg 18

" Pterophyllum altum is only known from the central Rio Orinoco which is partly the border of columbia and Venezuela and whose drainages stretch over both countries.I collected the species in Rio Inirida which is probably the largest collecting site in Columbia. The fish are brought via aeroplane frpm Purto Inirida to Bogota and from there , they are exported into the world."-Hans J.Mayland

One thing I think should be noted though with any fish species. A fishes distribution in the wild and the length of a river system don't always overlap entirely ..actually quite the contrary is often true. A species may only be found in portions of a river depending on many factors. Additionally, fish have a way of turning up in areas they did not evolve..perhaps carried by the wayward Human.. or flood waters, JMO :)

-al

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mike,

Peter Thode of Gwynnbrook's is selling f4's from a breeder...Horst Linke

http://www.discushatchery.com/gallery/altumpage.html

-al

[JeffreyRichard]

has anyone found documented & varified proof of anyone witnessing them spawning in captivity?

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/fornback.htm

-miket 8)


This has been the topic of extensive conversation within the angelfish community ... particularly on the Angelfish Forum II website (though I can't access it today for some reason ... ?). T

There have ONLY been a handful of successful spawns verified in the hobby ... maybe only 2 or three people.

here have been several articles written in Tropical Fish Hobbiest (TFH) about spawns ... a Japanese hobbiest documented a successful spawning 10 (?) years ago, and another fellow from Canada claimed to have spawned a pair ... though the evidence is lacking ... a friend of mine tried to talk to this guy, and got a lot of run-around.

Horst Linke, noted german author and fish keeper (many books about Cichlids), was supposed to have bred these fish. I actually engaged in a cyber conversation with him in the early 90's on Compuserve ... I didn't know who he was and thought he was fabracating this. However, it appears he has been successful, though there isn't much on the market in regards to these Fx fish. One would assume that successful spawning would get more press ... but ???

There are many expert angelfish breeders, notibly Steve Rybicki of Angels Plus, who have attempted to spawn this species. No success ... Steve's theory is that water conditions need to be "just right" for eggs to hatch, but no one knows what "just right" is.

There have been a handful of people who have gotten a pair of altums to spawn, but can't hatch the eggs or raise the babies.

Also, there now appears to be Scalares that look very similar to Altums that have been caught in larger quantities and imported recently ... could these be the fish that are actually being spawned instead of a real Altum?

I have 10 Altums in a 125 gallon tank that I've been raising for 4 years. Sometime in the next year or 2 I would like to set up a REAL BIG (500 gallon) tank which I hope to duplicate Orinoco River conditions, right down to the rainy/dry seasons. maybe this will trigger spawning and success?

Jeff

[Mike_T]

sounds like a worthwhile project. i've always wanted altums, i've just never devoted the tank space for em. when you keep discus you don't always have the room.

i think think the key is to closely study the subtle changes in their natural environment(diet, paramters, etc..). unfortunately the location doesn't make that an easy task. wonder what makes steve think it's an issue with the eggs? perhaps because their natural distribution isn't as wide as discus, so they've only adapted to laying eggs that hatch under very specific conditions. maybe there's some type of aquatic insect or larvae bloom that prompts spawning. what behaviors and biological factors set them apart from the scalare(which are much easier to spawn)?

it's all fascinating to me.

-miket 8)

[JeffreyRichard]

Hi Mike,

Peter Thode of Gwynnbrook's is selling f4's from a breeder...Horst Linke

http://www.discushatchery.com/gallery/altumpage.html

-al


Hmmm ... they sure look like Altums, and they are spawning ...

I wish Horst would share some of this information ... while a monopoly on captive-bred altums would be worth significant $$$, the exchange of information is priceless (and the right thing to do ...)

[wildthing]

The Orinoco and the Amazon are connected via the Rio Cassiquiare which joins the Rio Negro...actually a weird place...read this link.....

http://members.aol.com/ChrisChrz/humboldt.html

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I was just in Baltimore, MD two weeks ago. I should have stopped at Gwynn Brook Farms.

[Northwestcoastdisc]

hi everyone I have a pair of Wild Scalares hatch and wrigglers Now i ve babies in my stock no problems ;D ;D the baby wild Scalares are F-1

I got a pair of wild Altums Angels They spawned and ate the eggs I lost the pair of altums angels due toxic water :-[ :( They were really so beauitful fish but they are really so HUGE fish. i was very close to get chance to have babies.

I want to get back Wild Altums F-0 in my hatchery. They are worth it but really beauitful in plant tanks.

How to breed for Wild Altums and Wild Scalares.


you have to grow out after 2 years old to start to spawn.

water keep ph lower than 6.5 ph
very very soft water about 60 conductivity about 30 hardness water, because of my tap water hardnes is really very low.
keep temp between 80 to 82

HTH

Duncan

[Mike_T]

The Orinoco and the Amazon are connected via the Rio Cassiquiare which joins the Rio Negro...actually a weird place...read this link.....

http://members.aol.com/ChrisChrz/humboldt.html

that's a pretty good read. i would have never thought of using horses to catch electric eels..heh. here's some basic info on the Biosphere Reserve:

http://www2.unesco.org/mab/br/brdir/directory/biores.asp?code=VEN+01&mode=all

-miket

[Ryan]

This is the first time I've ever seen those pictures of the altum pairs. I wonder how these fish behave compared to the wild altums, and if they're more inclined to spawn in captivity than their wild relatives?

Ryan

[Northwestcoastdisc]

Hi Ryan

This is the first time I've ever seen those pictures of the altum pairs. I wonder how these fish behave compared to the wild altums, and if they're more inclined to spawn in captivity than their wild relatives?

Its almost same as Discus 's behavor pair up and spawn. But they are more aggressive pair up than discus. They swim very fast they might to kill other fish when they will spawn. That Altums behavor as like cichlids. All cichlids pair up are very aggressive to protect to the nests. When the fish toward the nest, they will kill them or the fish will stay away,because they are too aggressive. Altums are more aggressive than other cichlids. Altum males are bigger than female. when you see their belly smaller papilla than female. when you will see tube come out it. you can see it really very thick and long about 1/4" then male you will see 1/8" . The altums can laid eggs about 600 to up. They can grow up to 20" top and bottom fin. I dont get grow that size. I had a pair of Altums they were 12" to 14" from top to bottom fin.
The wild sclarce is almost same as altums but they are not really too aggressive as altums behavior. Wild Sclarce spawn behavior as commons angels.

HTH my information.

Duncan

[jn4u]

The first recorded breeding of Wild-Caught Altum was Germany if I understand this was in artificially way? Some month after this there was a recorded breeding in Sweden. This breeding is recorded on video and I have seen in person. Sven the breeder happen to bee a very good breeder of discus also. That’s why I know him, Breeding is recorded on this site and the German magazine datz.

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/forn_content.htm

I happened to have some photos from his aquarium on my site. Took these photos some years ago.
http://discusfish.nu/blogger/gallery/21.aspx

I’m also an angel fan and have some of my own (40). But I never talk about that on this site :-(. My personal favourite is the “manacpauru red back”. I more or less tried of discus ;). Look on my site and you will find some angels on my photos.

http://discusfish.nu/blogger/images/40/r_altum06.jpg

[wildthing]

altums have higher fins than scalare, with a nice rusty red tone, and their nose is much more 'notched' than scalare
many times scalare are sent as altums.....if they come from Brazil or Peru they are usually not altums but scalare.

[Mike_T]

i realize this is the discus forum, but if you're thinking of getting altums, it's important to know the differences, since you'll pay more for them. other types are passed off as altums all the time, whether the seller knows it or not. just at our last local fish auction, there were two scalares with relatively thick stripes in a bag marked "pair of altums."

dw,

have you noticed any variations in altums as far as color and pattern go?

-miket 8)

[wildthing]

i realize this is the discus forum, but if you're thinking of getting altums, it's important to know the differences, since you'll pay more for them. other types are passed off as altums all the time, whether the seller knows it or not. just at our last local fish auction, there were two scalares with relatively thick stripes in a bag marked "pair of altums."

dw,

have you noticed any variations in altums as far as color and pattern go?

-miket 8)


I have not noticed any significant differences between altums that aren't just the normal differences between closely related members of the same species, sometimes there is a hint of blue sometimes redder, but I think this is attributable to local water conditions and diet......like blue face heckels but not as pronounced, that tends to go away after a few weeks in an aquarium.

My last Altums I grew out to about 4" body size, but when I moved they ( about a dozen) all went into a pool with the discus and they all died one by one soon after...tho the discus were just fine. While they were in that pool they kept themselves apart...I think the discus had something to do with their demise!
:(
They will be replaced very soon with some of those lovelies from Al..

[brewmaster15]

Count on it David! :)

Next week..after the Holiday i'll make a road trip ;D

-al

[Lauren]

Theres one type of fish featured at one of the few BAS meetings I went to they showed us. It looked JUST like an altum in many ways except it had black stripes as opposed to the lighter brown stripes of an Altum - when they asked "What is it?" alot of people said Altum
WRONG! lol, it was a peruvian altum. Although I've never seen another picture of a peruvian altum that looked anywhere as close to the Altum as the one I saw at the BAS meeting.

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/peruvianscalare.htm

I'd love some home bred altums, that would be pretty awesome

Lauren

[wildthing]

:o
this one was the size of an adult discus.

[Ryan]

Lauren,

I think what are often referred to as "Peruvian altums" are actually scalare, also known as Peruvian scalare. They are not altums, but a form of scalare that have altum characteristics, such as the notched forehead. If you look for "Peruvian scalare" pictures online you will probably find a lot of fish like the one you mentioned in your post. They are fairly common.

If I'm wrong I hope David or another angel enthusiast corrects me, lol.

Ryan

[wildthing]

Lauren,

I think what are often referred to as "Peruvian altums" are actually scalare, also known as Peruvian scalare. They are not altums, but a form of scalare that have altum characteristics, such as the notched forehead. If you look for "Peruvian scalare" pictures online you will probably find a lot of fish like the one you mentioned in your post. They are fairly common.

If I'm wrong I hope David or another angel enthusiast corrects me, lol.

Ryan


I agree, that is ( maybe) what the pic above is ..I caught it in Lago Tefe....it is not an altum.
:)

[jaydoc]

The link in Lauren's post supports what DW and Ryan are saying about Peruvian Scalare being mis-named Peruvian Altum.

[Lauren]

Ryan,
That was my point! LOL Maybe I shouldve said that in my post

If you read the articles on 'Peruvian Altums' it says just that, it is not an altum at all but a scalare with some charactaristics of altum shape.

DW,
IMO looking at the stripes I would say that that may be what the picture is a 'peruvian altum' or another type of scalare. It doesnt have the redish/yellow hue & wide striped pattern of a real Altum.

Lauren

Al BrewMaster :wave:

Those are some gorgeous silvery looking :angel: :angel::angel::angel: you got there!

Do you breed them? Are they available for purchase? ;D Just asking. I got an itch for a third and fourth tankie. :D *Angie*

[raglanroad]

has anyone found documented & varified proof of anyone witnessing them spawning in captivity?

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/fornback.htm

-miket 8)This question does have an answer. The Altum has been bred quite a few times. Perhaps omitting some, there is a list of breeders starting with Jim Robinson,Canada, in '92. Sven Fornback, Frank Aguirre, Horst LInke, Robert Deutschman, Rich Smarciarz, breeders in Japan, and other Asian countries. Ji9m Robinson bred them in 92. He is open and willing to share details. Frank Aguirre bred Altums in his Mexican facility starting in early 90's and continuing about monthly forthe year. He has documented the breedings extremely well. Another breeder in Japan has his f1 Altums starting to spawn, but they ate the first batch. His wilds continue to spawn. Japanese auctions have tank -raised Altum for sale regularly. I personally know both Frank Aguirre and Jim Robinson. In fact, both belong to the same local fish club ! So give those fish a chance, you might be very surprised !

[Moon]

Which fish club is that?

[raglanroad]

Which fish club is that?Hi, Moon! The Brampton Aquarium Club in Brampton, Ontario, Canada- not too far from you !! You will also find Bob Wilson ( North American Discus Society) at that club, Discus man since the 50's ! So at the last presentation, we had Frank Aguirre, Jim Robinson, and Bob Wilson together in one club ! Frank Aguirre was booked for a presentation at the Hamilton club You might check if it has already happened or not. don't know. Dave

[raglanroad]

has anyone found documented & varified proof of anyone witnessing them spawning in captivity?

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/fornback.htm

-miket 8)


This has been the topic of extensive conversation within the angelfish community ... particularly on the Angelfish Forum II website (though I can't access it today for some reason ... ?). T

There have ONLY been a handful of successful spawns verified in the hobby ... maybe only 2 or three people.

here have been several articles written in Tropical Fish Hobbiest (TFH) about spawns ... a Japanese hobbiest documented a successful spawning 10 (?) years ago, and another fellow from Canada claimed to have spawned a pair ... though the evidence is lacking ... a friend of mine tried to talk to this guy, and got a lot of run-around.

Horst Linke, noted german author and fish keeper (many books about Cichlids), was supposed to have bred these fish. I actually engaged in a cyber conversation with him in the early 90's on Compuserve ... I didn't know who he was and thought he was fabracating this. However, it appears he has been successful, though there isn't much on the market in regards to these Fx fish. One would assume that successful spawning would get more press ... but ???

There are many expert angelfish breeders, notibly Steve Rybicki of Angels Plus, who have attempted to spawn this species. No success ... Steve's theory is that water conditions need to be "just right" for eggs to hatch, but no one knows what "just right" is.

There have been a handful of people who have gotten a pair of altums to spawn, but can't hatch the eggs or raise the babies.

Also, there now appears to be Scalares that look very similar to Altums that have been caught in larger quantities and imported recently ... could these be the fish that are actually being spawned instead of a real Altum?

I have 10 Altums in a 125 gallon tank that I've been raising for 4 years. Sometime in the next year or 2 I would like to set up a REAL BIG (500 gallon) tank which I hope to duplicate Orinoco River conditions, right down to the rainy/dry seasons. maybe this will trigger spawning and success?

JeffHi, Jeff. Sharing info is what will lead to widespread success, and those who have done it are willing to share.(for instance Frank's production of 240 fry artificial rearing vs. 10 fry for parent-raised, the exact pH he used, age, diet, etc.including photos.You might compare your Altum with Frank Aguirre's f 1 to verify specie.) Please find out more about Jim Robinson, .. Jim is a specialist in difficult to breed species, a true expert, very friendly and helpful. Dave

[Tad]

Dave,
Interesting information on the Altum spawns....I would personally love to see your altums in the 125 :)

regards,
Tad

[raglanroad]

Dave,
Interesting information on the Altum spawns....I would personally love to see your altums in the 125 :)

regards,
Tad Thanks, Tad. But perhaps I wasn't communicating clearly. The Altums you are referring to must be Jeff Richard's Altums. I was attempting to give information on the situation regarding the Altum spawns, and the successful people so far.. ( I have 10 young Altum myself, will post pics when I get a digital camera.) Dave

[Tad]

Dave,
My Bad :) ....fighting a head cold and nothing is registering well today LOL..Heres my Altums ;)

11 in a 60 growout

thanks for providing some interesting reading on the breeding of Altums,
Tad

[raglanroad]

Hey, Tad. Mine look just like that !

[aloha_discus]

Tad they are looking Great. Keep posting pics of them Beauties.

Ike

[Moon]

Hi, Moon! The Brampton Aquarium Club in Brampton, Ontario, Canada- not too far from you !! You will also find Bob Wilson ( North American Discus Society) at that club, Discus man since the 50's ! So at the last presentation, we had Frank Aguirre, Jim Robinson, and Bob Wilson together in one club ! Frank Aguirre was booked for a presentation at the Hamilton club You might check if it has already happened or not. don't know. Dave
Dave thanks for the info.
Ah yes Bob Wilson and Jim Robinson are old friends of mine. I was one of the original group of guys to form NADS with Bob, vern and Lionel. I did keep and breed discus some 20 years ago. Gave it up and now back at it. I did catch Franks presentation on Plecos at the Hamilton club. It was very good. He told me that he had a similar presentation on Altums and looking forward to seeing it.
Joe

[raglanroad]

Hi, Moon ! Wow! We should call this the Golden Triangle of heavy-hitters in the fish world ! Glad to hear from you! So as a relative beginner, I guess I fell into the right company ! Dave

[Moon]

Hi, Moon ! Wow! We should call this the Golden Triangle of heavy-hitters in the fish world ! Glad to hear from you! So as a relative beginner, I guess I fell into the right company ! Dave

Hi Dave
You certainly did. I'll drop in at the next Brampton meeting and hopefully meet up with you.
Joe

[raglanroad]

Joe,
Since it is difficult for me to get to Brampton, I have only been there twice. Once for the auction, at which Jim carried the deal for about 6 hrs, rattling off latin names and determining sex of the fish at a glance. I had missed his Brampton club presentation called, I think, "Those Tough to Breed Species".
The other time was for Frank's presentation. Looking forward to the pleco and stingray presentations too. Frank will be at the Toronto Willowdale club for the plecos presentation in May I think.
Speaking of Altums, Al has given Altum buyers in the U.S. some of the best condition Altums going. When someone asks where to get em, Numero Uno suggestion is ask Al.( I started the Altum Breeders' Club even before I got my fish , so sometimes people ask)
North of the border, I got my fish Altums from Dale Jordan, probably another person you know.
Anyhow, one way or another, we will meet up, I hope !
Dave

[Moon]

Dave
As a matter of fact I am looking for Altums. I don't think Al ships across the border. I've heard of Dale Jordan but have not met him. Oliver (Below Water) brings in Altums sometimes but he is out of them now.
Joe

[raglanroad]

Joe,
They were on sale for 16 each for 10 at Christmas, and a group buy for us went down the tubes when Big Al's ( a chain store in Canada) snapped up the lot, not to mention everyone else doing the same. They were up to 6" or more tip to tip. I saw most of them in trouble at the various outlets, except for Franks outlet in Brampton. Frank may still have some , at the store , or at home. Best bet.
Also, we have a buddy who you may already know who can get them in Toronto near the airport for $17, but we have to wait until he hears from them again, as they were also sold out. Perhaps they just buy in quantity from Oliver, don't know. Oliver carries up to 3,000 in Montreal, and another 8,000 in S.A., at times. But when I try to buy, they disappear. Phooey.
Dale doen't usually carry them for sale, don't think, he just did me a favour by helping me get started. He is an early breeder of the Heckel, and is featured in Jack Wattleys book where Jack interviews some of the greats.
Will let you know if I find out anything.Why not phone Brampton B.A? Just ask for Frank in the fishroom. Or I can give you his number and e-mail addy. They won't be Oliver's sale price, though!( Oliver may be out of juvies for the year, don't know) One extra place is Scarborough P. J.'s outlet. John there can keep them alive too. Price goes from $30 to 3 for $75 on Wednesdays. But Al The Brewmaster seems to give the fish an extra good conditioning. Pity; only in America, eh? Did Al give his Altum conditioning formula anywhere around here?
Dave

[Moon]

Dave
Thanks for the info. I am setting up a 70g tank for Altums. Frank has some at his store in Brampton. I will check it out this weekend. He wants $30 each and has only 6 left.
Joe

[Salvaje]

Interesting thread! :thumbsup:

I am craving for altums now.... :D

Pam

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,

Speaking of Altums, Al has given Altum buyers in the U.S. some of the best condition Altums going. When someone asks where to get em, Numero Uno suggestion is ask Al.( Didn't realize that but I am glad everyone like the ones I sent them. I try :)



But Al The Brewmaster seems to give the fish an extra good conditioning. Pity; only in America, eh? Did Al give his Altum conditioning formula anywhere around here? Its a very proprietary recipe Dave... One that I have spent 15 years developing... :) Well okay that my discus conditioning procedure.... but since you asked... Its the same. I treat the Altums exactly like they were discus. :D thats it in a nutshell. Angels have a reputation of being more forgiving of water quality than discus. Altums being Angels are often treated like angels. To me they are more like discus in their needs. They are to angelfish what heckels are to discus.

take care,
al

[raglanroad]

Hi Dave, I treat the Altums exactly like they were discus. :D thats it in a nutshell. Angels have a reputation of being more forgiving of water quality than discus. Altums being Angels are often treated like angels. To me they are more like discus in their needs. They are to angelfish what heckels are to discus.

take care,
alAl, that is exactly where I started out with Altums, realizing that good Discus keepers were having success , even breeding the Altum.
Dave