Opinions on feeding CBW

[BrianNY]

I'm drawing the conclusion that feeding CBW = health problems. The younger the fish, the more severe the problem. Right or wrong?

I must be doing something correctly because (knock on wood), out of 9 tanks and now 49 discus, I only have issues with 1 fish at a time. 3 of these tanks are set up with breeding pairs and spawns in these as well as other tanks are frequent. I've never actually had free swimming fry for more than a week but that's another subject.

What is the catalyst to cause just 1 fish to fall victim to some unknown malody? I'd say stress and the pecking order if it were always the lowliest fish on the ladder, but that isn't the case. Most of times it's been the most voracious eater in the tank.

Statiscally the fish that eats the most, has the best chance of ingesting that "bad" worm, if there is such a thing. Am I totally off base here? Is this the most likely cause of my persistent health problems?

[mench]

Brian,of course this is just my opinion....I have been using CBW for yrs...and I have lost a fish or two or three along the way...Is it because of the worms???? Don't know,I have lost fish that haven't had worms..
All I can say about worms is to make sure you rinse they every day...and yep I have had a few bad batches from CBW and it hurts the pocketbook to throw away 5 or more lbs,but Dan usually pretty good about it.I am not sure that the mid to end of summer is the best time to get the worms,cuz it is this time that I seem to have a problem with the worms.
But like I said this is just my opinion...I for one will keep feeding CBW to my fish...all my guys love it...I have some 3 week fry now that are eating the CBW and it is a kick to watch them try to get a long worm into thier tiny mouths.
So go ahead,but keep the worms clean
good luck.

Mench

P.S. I have to get in touch with you to talk about plecos......

[henryD]

Brian,

I have gone back and forth with the CBW. I have feed them for period of time without any problems. I also have feed them and ended up with problems.

Now it is not rinsing of the worms. I think I know how to rinse worms. ::)

It could be batch to batch. Although I am extremely careful to throw away anything that does not look good.

I think I have finally found what I have been doing wrong...

I have always been told that CBW is great to feed because they are a great source of protein and is does not dirty the tank. Unlike bh and pellets they don't mess up the tank. So I guess with that in mind I have been less careful when i feed them. I think this is the wrong state of mind.

If you have a batch of worms and an extra tank. Throw some in the tank. Check the tank every 1/2 hour and watch what happens to it.

So now that I have been careful not to let the worms sit around and scoop up any uneaten ones. I have noticed that I have not been having problems.

Just my opinion and experience.
Henry

[Howie_W]

What is the catalyst to cause just 1 fish to fall victim to some unknown malody? I'd say stress and the pecking order if it were always the lowliest fish on the ladder, but that isn't the case. Most of times it's been the most voracious eater in the tank.

Statiscally the fish that eats the most, has the best chance of ingesting that "bad" worm, if there is such a thing. Am I totally off base here? Is this the most likely cause of my persistent health problems?




Discus love to eat...their favorite are often worms, and a healthy fish with a good appetite will gorge itself until there's no more food left in the tank. If you've had problems with you best eaters, it may not be the food, but rather the fact that they've ingested more food than they're capable of digesting properly. It's easy to overfeed, especially when you're feeding to a lot of fish and want to make sure everyone is getting their fair share.

A bad batch of food would most likely effect more than one fish. Some like to feed worms exclusively...I only feed worms in general once a day. Discus need a balance of protein and fibre in their diet to promote health...after a certain point, protein becomes a source of excess waste for the fish.


Howie

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I used to feed CBW exclusively. Only stopped because my wife and I travel allot. It's our thing. Asking house guests to rinse worms and do massive water changes was out of the question (although one was willing and did! sorta. It's enough that they are feeding our 2 cats and 3 fish tanks). So, I feed flake food now.

Never saw any trouble with CBW, except that the more aggressive Discus simply did not allow the less aggressive Discus to have any. I didn't see that behavior when feeding Beefheart. If the water is clean and temp is high, the Discus will eat as many CBWs as you put in the tank.

Rams were a different story. After about 6-8 weeks they gave into severe bloat. Never been able to cure it.

[oodi]

We've been feeding CBW for over 2 years, without problems.

And a pic is worth a thousand words:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=20267

Judi
:)

[Jeff]

I have feed them and now chose not to feed them. The cost is also a big factor.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

17 years and NO related Problems ;)

[RyanH]

I also have been feeding CBW for some time now and I have had no problems. They are rinsed really good and then soaked in Methylene blue before they are fed to my fish... just because I'm paranoid. ;)

[kpix99]

My Good old M-Blue Trick!

The M-blue is a experiment of Mine I was the first one to try this on cbw with great sucsess!

Also When I said I never had problems I lied Because I have had Some but Only because I was greedy And wanted to buy lots of worms at one time for a cheaper Price.

IME And the labs the only thing bad about CBW + discus is if You buy to many worms they tend to get slimy.
This slime can cause internal bacteria infections in discus.

After Haveing batch after batch tested By mississippi state
University National Warmwater Aquaculture Center for warm water parasites + bacteria We Only find This to be the case.

No Hex, No flukes, No other external Parasites! Just some Minor Bacteria that may effect a few fish from each batch
We also found a small number of Hard shell Amebas that are harmless to fish and humans.

Anyways after My experiments with CBW + M-Blue and ofcourse the help of Dr Mike mauel PHD of the university
We found that the M-Blue did kill the Bacteria on contact.

However I no longer buy CBW in large amounts so the M- blue is no longer needed But still a good wash goes a long way!

One way to know if You have this problem is to grab the worms with Your hands If They leave a slimy Feeling on Your fingers this could be Your only Problem With CBW.

IME Most people buy sick discus and soon after begin to feed cbw so I can totally understand Why the CBW gets the bad rap!

Another Reason would be CBW from a bad source this would include trout farms and run offs from chicken coops.

Last but not least Facts are very important! Its so wrong to asume Problems. Things like this hurt the hobby just like the one about Discus being Hard to KEEP ;)

hth
CARY GLd + Family

HTH
Takecare
Cary Gld!

[Jeff]

I agree. Then add "I just bought these and they are looking like they are dieing so I better feed them faster." That just never works and also adds a lot of negativity to CBW.

[RyanH]

Hey Cary (Now that I know it's you!),

I actually picked that trick up from a friend of mine who breeds Angels. He swears by it and had been bugging me to try it for some time. It was only after I mentioned it to Tad that I learned that you had been experimenting with treating CBW with Methylene Blue. I've been meaning to IM you and ask you a few questions about it. I'd be very interested in learning a bit more about your findings.

take care!
-Ryan

[kpix99]

WHY EMAIL?


LETS TALK ;D


Also Who is This Angel Breeder I talk to lots of Fish people that feed Worms To Bettas,guppies,Africans,Angels,Rams,
Goldfish Etc.....

hth
Cary Gld!

[BrianNY]

wow. Terrific feedback. Thank you everyone.

Cary, it was you that suggested I send some sick fish to Dr. Mauel at Mississippi state for analysis. I did, and after dealing with him, trust his findings without question.

[RyanH]

Hey Cary,

The Angel breeder is a friend of mine who lives nearby here in Grand Rapids. He's retired and keeps a low profile. I don't think he's shipping or importing anymore and he pretty much just sells what he raises to lfs's these days. He's been breeding Angels forever and has a brilliant setup in his fishroom. I've never seen anything like it. It's really amazing. I'm going to try to drag him along when I come over and buy some fish from you this fall. You guys definately need to meet!

I'll give you a call next week! :)

-Ryan

[kpix99]

SWEET!


Set it up My brother from another mother ;D

[David N]

I've had good results with CBW. You can usually tell real quick if the worms are in good condition. If the water they are in turns cloudy in less than a day it usually means they are starting to go bad. I've had batches from local stores that just wouldn't rinse clean. If that happens, chuck the worms.

I don't buy the BW from the local stores anymore. First of all, the worms are usually in fair to poor condition unless they just came in. Secondly, it's far from cost effective. Petland discounts charges $2.00 for the equivalent of 1/2 once. Do the math.

If you do order from Dan, wait for cool weather. The worms don't tolerate the shipping in the hot weather very well.

As an alternative try some red wigglers. Al (Brewmaster) turned me on to them just before summer started. I keep two cultures going and they are not bothered by the heat.

David N

[Cosmo]

Bryan,

Fed live blackworms for years before there was a CBW and had no problems, only quit cause the wife wouldn't tolerate worm spills in the fridge ::) Never had a problem. Have experienced the same problem you're describing though while I was feeding only frozen worms and brine, so maybe it's the frozen that's the problem? ;D

Always one fish at a time, and, not necesarily the smallest one.. unfortunately, have one in the hospital tank now :-[

One theory related to me when I posted this several months ago was that it was simply a fish with a weak immune system that nature would have culled in the wild.. possible that one or more fish entered the tank sick, and shared whatever it was carrying, but that wouldn't seem to account for the one at a time factor so I tend to think the cull factor is the most likely.

Just got my first shipment and started with CBW a few days ago, and they are really clean compared to what I used to buy from the LFS years ago. Don't think the worms are your problem.

Fish love the live worms and seem to grow faster, larger and healthier with them IMO. Frozen floats then fouls up the tank where the live won't (float at least.. lol)

Have found that frequent, large WC's do seem to reduce, but not eliminate the number of ocurrances though.

Good looking fish :)

Good luck
Jim

Cary.. gotta try the M-blue.. what's the dilution (if any) ?

[Scott T.]

Hello All

I have just started a 125 gal. with Discus and I purchased some CBW and I found what
seems to look like a leech to me but I am not really sure. They stretch out and are thin like a
worm but then they they contract and are almost round in size. Has anyone had any of these
shipped with their CBW?

Scott

[David N]

The leeches are normal in the CBW. The dead ones should float away when you rinse the worms. Also, if you keep the worms in plastic in the fridge for a while the leeches will stick to the container and you can pour the worms into a different container. Lastly, you can pick the leeches out with tweezers. The leeches haven't done any harm to the fish, but I don't like them.
David N

[ShinShin]

I used them in the late 60's, early 70's and had all sorts of problems. Tried them in the early 90's and was doing okay for awhile, then the same problems. I haven't used them for 10-12 years now, and the only problems I have had are from discus I receive from other's who use cbw's. Every breeder I have purchased discus from who feeds cbw's has sent me a little extra >:( for my money. Tapeworms have been the minimum problem. They're an easy fix. ;)

I agree - cbw"s = problems

[Scott T.]

David

Thanks for the reply in reference to the CBW's. I really don't like them either but I guess
I will just pick them out as you suggested. My discus really like the worms so to me it is
worth the time to pick them out. Well I guess it's about time for that water change so you
people enjoy whats left of the day.

Scott T.