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Ardan
10-03-2004, 08:34 AM
Chlorine/Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach) use and its toxicity to fish by Ardan October 2, 2004

This article is written after a personal terrible experience of mine. It is not written for sympathy or any other reason than to share my experience so that you may learn from it and hopefully avoid such an experience.

I needed to clean my fill hose system as there was a bad odor coming from it after one year of use for water changes. Potossium Permanganate solution was used 4 times through the hose and did not get rid of the odor. The hose is the clear vinyl type used for potable water. I have it hooked to a pvc system with a pump from my water barrels.
I was concerned that a bacteria was growing in the fill system.
I mixed 2 cups of bleach in 5 gallons of water, pumped it through the fill system, let it sit 10 minutes, then flushed the system 4 times with tap water, then once more with tap water plus a large amount of dechlorinator to neutralize any residual chlorine.

1.Evidently I was wrong and a residual amount of bleach was left in the piping or hoses
2. At the same time, unknown to me, the city water department added more than normal chlorine to the water supply (normal at this time of year) (usual amounts were .2 ppm on my test kit. the day after my experience, I measured 1.5 ppm on my test kit in the tap water and the water smelled of strong chlorine
3. the aeration in my water barrel was not as strong as usual (the bubbling was weaker, probably due to an aging airstone)


Anyway, early Sunday Morning, September 19, 2004, I did the usual 50% water change on my 2 discus tanks (one 50 gallon, one 75 gallon) containing 19 discus, some adults, some 1 year old, and went outside. When I came back in 1 and 1/2 hours later, some of my discus were hanging at the surface, some were laying on the bottom and all had rapid gill movements. Slime coat was being shed and hanging on to the fish. Discoloration was occurring. I knew immediately it was a water problem due to the recent water change in relation to the rapid onset of symptoms. I smelled the water and detected a moderate smell of chlorine (not strong enough to detect without really smelling for it). I did not take the time to test the levels in the tank.
I immediately added a large amount of dechlor to the tanks and began massive water changes with dechlorinated water (one 50%, then one 90%, then another 75%) I then added salt at 2 tblsp/10 gal. Also added Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) to give extra oxygen to the tank, and increased the aeration in the tank.
Some of the fish started to swim a bit and I thought some might make it. I left to get groceries and when I returned all were dead.
It was more difficult to accept than I ever thought losing them would be, but I will get more discus, maybe next year and I will learn from this experience and do things a bit different. I think I will use dechlorinator routinely as a precaution. I will monitor aeration in the water barrels more closely. I think I will still need to use bleach for cleaning, but I think drying after using bleach is very important (I did not dry my fill lines after the bleach use)
I had a hard time writing this and had only confided in Carol Roberts and Al (Brewmaster)about my experience. Al is a very good friend and wonderful person and offered to help me get started again right away, but I have a stubborn streak and will wait until finances and work are better. I really appreciate his support and this website. He goes way above and beyond the average person in helping people. Carol is a great person too and had had a similar experience with bleach, but caught it within 10 minutes and saved her fish. I appreciate learning from her experiences.
These discus were all discus purchased from Cary at GLD, so you can imagine how beautiful they were. I was quite attached to some of them due to there beauty and character. I regret that I had no recent pictures of them when they were healthy.
I did take some pictures of the symptoms but as of yet I have not been able to look at them or share them.
Anyway I write this article to share what I have learned.


Chlorine and or bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is a great disinfectant and cleaning agent for aquariums and equipment. It is an oxidizer. It is also an irritant to skin and mucous membranes, especially the respiratory tract. Use good ventilation when using and wear protective rubber gloves to prevent skin contact. Wear protective eye glasses.
Sodium hypochlorite (bleach) is a form of chlorine.
After using bleach for cleaning, adequate rinsing is necessary to remove all traces of bleach. Air drying after rinsing is recommended.

When fish are exposed to chlorine it irritates their gills and skin. The protective slime coat is stripped exposing the bare skin to the chlorine resulting in skin burns.
The longer the exposure, the more severe are the reactions. As the gills are irritated, oxygen is not able to reach the blood.
Chlorine destroys cell proteins and enzyme systems.
The toxicity of chlorine increases at lower ph and higher temperatures. (as in discus tanks)
SIgns and Symptoms

The fish are hanging near the surface of the water, trying to get air and to get out of the contaminated water. Gill movement is rapid.
Some fish dart around the tank.
Fish begin to lay on the bottom of the tank and do not move as oxygen is depleted from their system. The fish do not swim much either due to the lack of oxygen.
Slime coat is being shed and long strands of slime cling to the body. Burn marks appear as spots or discoloration on the body.


Treatment

1. Get the fish to fresh dechlorinated water either by transfering the fish. or
2. Use dechlorinators to neutralize the chlorine
3.massive water changes, using dechlorinated water. Time is of the essence, the sooner this is caught the better the chances of saving the fish.
4. Increase aeration.


Toxicity

1ppm chlorine is toxic to all fish, whereas as little as .4 ppm is toxic to game fish. (per safety data sheet by Sechelle Ltd of London) (see the box labeled "ecological information" on the web page) http://cgi.www.sechelle.co.uk/data%20sheets/sodium_hyper_safety_sheet.htm

.2mg/l kills most fish rapidly according to A to Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems by Burgess, Bailey and Excell
References
http://cgi.www.sechelle.co.uk/data%20sheets/sodium_hyper_safety_sheet.htm
A to Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems by Burgess, Bailey and Excell

Truelies
10-03-2004, 09:03 AM
What a tragedy Ardan :'(. I really feel so sorry for what happened to your wonderful fish. I'm sure that you had invested a lot of time and efforts. We all understand your feeling and we hope that we can do something for you. We also appreciate your advices and lessons that had never ended and it will continue ….

Thanks again Ardan and wish you all best of luck with your coming lucky Discus :).

xen
10-03-2004, 09:23 AM
Oh Arden - you have my sympathies, mate. I'd be a mess in your shoes.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post your story while it was still fresh. Hopefully by passing on your awful story while it was still fresh you'll be able to reach more people with it.

Take a break, but make sure you come back to it!

Warmest regards,
John

Cosmo
10-03-2004, 10:09 AM
Ardan,

What a horrible experience, I can only imagine what you are going through :( Goes to show that even the most experienced among us can make mistakes with disastrous results...

Recently went thru an experience where I was in danger of losing all my fish because of a miscalculation as well.. just the thought of losing them was unbearable..

All of us who have been there, or to the edge, are out here :'( with you ...

Hopefully, won't be too long until we see you back here..

Jim

Ardan
10-03-2004, 10:36 AM
Thanks for the kind words! 8) :)
There is never an end to learning in this hobby and there is never stopping this hobby :) 8) (over 30 years and countless fish for me ;D)
I hope this helps someone else.

Howie_W
10-03-2004, 10:40 AM
Hi Ardan,

Thanks for sharing your story...I so sorry to hear about this.

For what it's worth, I use bleach to clean all my equipment. The great thing about bleach is that it is effective in very small amounts...the amount you used was an enormously high ratio.

I regulary soak equipment in scalding hot water, when done I remove the equipment, throughly rinse the cleaning bucket, and repeat the process without any bleach.

Best wishes to you.


Howie

adapted
10-03-2004, 12:16 PM
That is a sad tale for sure and one that most of us can identify with on some level.

You should take at least a little solace in the knowledge that sharing your experience here will almost certainly help others... in other words you may well have saved many more fish than you lost.

I personally would have never expected any substance to still be a problem after a quadruple flushing. So I will be more careful myself.

Thanks and good luck.

Willie
10-03-2004, 03:25 PM
Ardan;

Based on your description, it does not sound like bleaching the water hose caused your fish any problems. The dosage you used was not too high and you certainly flush a lot more than I do. I've never experienced this at all.

I believe your water department flushed the system with chlorine and other toxic chemicals. This happens often in the Fall. Fallen leaves clog the storm sewers. As it rains, nutrients are flushed out into the sewer system to cause algal bloom, which clogs the system. The municipal departments routinely practice prevention by flushing the system with high levels of chlorine. I've had that happen to me about five years ago and lost fish.

Now I watch the fish carefully after a water change. If there's any indication of stress, I double/triple the dose of sodium thiosulfate. If its any consolation, I don't think anything you did caused the die off.

Willie

Barb Newell
10-03-2004, 03:46 PM
Hi Ardan, I am very sorry about your loss. I know it's very very difficult to lose them.

Barb

RandalB
10-03-2004, 03:59 PM
Ardan,
I agree with willie, it's not your fault. There's no way enough bleach would be present in those lines to kill your fish. I'll bet you an RO unit that your water department flushed with Alum or any of the dozen or so other chemicals shortly before this happened. Was there any water main work in the area going on? You may also want to ask them if there has been a coliform bacteria problem in the area.

If their water testing shows a spike in coliforms, most water authorities will either alum flush or jack the chlorine for a time.

Water main repairs are also a sign that a Chlorine or other flush is impending....

Ask Butch (Chewal) about what happens when a water main is repaired in your area....

Sorry about your loss Bro!
RandalB

henryD
10-03-2004, 04:35 PM
Ardan,

My heart felt sympathy goes out to you...

Sorry about your loss.

Henry

Ardan
10-03-2004, 04:58 PM
Thanks Everyone!
WIllie and Randal, I will never know for sure, but the city flushing with extra chlorine is what I lean toward as the main cause, although I think the bleaching could have/may have added to the problem. Either way I think from now on I will use dechlor regularily and not depend on just aeration in my water barrels.

I do know there is a lot of water main replacement going on in the city.

Also Lake Michigan has higher levels of algae this time of year that they regularily control with higher chlorine at the treatment plant. ( I don't know about alum addition, but its possible)
I just didn't think about it and didn't take the time to observe the fish for much time after the water changes.
Thanks for the input! :)Your experiences do give me comfort to know it possibly was not all something I did.

Ardan

ShinShin
10-03-2004, 05:29 PM
Sorry Ardin. I also doubt your hoses had any effect at all. I routinely run bleach though my hoses and just briefly flush them back out w/no dry time. As toxic as bleach is, it is very simple to rinse away. Most people overkill this process.

A 1::100 - bleach::water ratio will kill most bacteria and a host of other organisms. We use 1::10 in the lab. It is overkill, but very effective.

Mat :)

Cosmo
10-03-2004, 06:13 PM
I've taken a few hits on occassion for not trusting Lake Michigan water or the City of Chicago, yet the explanation for Ardan's trajic loss seems to point in the direction of one or both of them.

Wondering now if this could be related to the problem I had a couple weeks ago.. similar symptoms that I thought was related to an ammonia spike from a filter change, but... now I"m wondering? Fish reacted almost immediately when the tank finished filling but thankfully I caught it in time and saved them all.. not without considerable shedding on a few of them though..

Randal.. is it possible something like this could have gotten thru or overwhelmed the RO membrane in sufficient quantity w/o destroying the membrane? Tds still seems to be ok..

Started adding Prime in the holding tanks the other day just in case ..

Jim

Jean
10-03-2004, 06:41 PM
:-[ Ardan----

I feel badly for u. It is a hard thing that you have experienced no doubt. I'm glad u did this write up tho; it may help someone and that is making good of bad. I had a bad experience with chlorine myself; and I did a write up on it too; hard as it was. I lost some fry due to it. Adults would be even harder in your case. My reasoning was the same as yours; try to prevent this from happening to someone else.

My situation was due to back pressure with a pump. Since, I have taken a different approach, and I think others have thought more about that possibility as well. You are likely not at fault here either; but it could happen and the city flushing issues are certainly need for concern for anyone on city water.

I'm not that far from you, I have some spawns now and growing out some others. I may down-size on some of my adults; lemme know if I can help in anyway.

I applaud u!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_114.gif
Jean ;D 8)

RandalB
10-03-2004, 07:09 PM
Jim,
I doubt it...

Most of the chemicals used for spot purification are heavy and the RO membrane would reject those unless present in massive quantity.

RandalB

Tad
10-03-2004, 08:45 PM
Ardan,
I am sadden by your recent loss :'( I would believe that the culprit was definately, the Municipal Water District and not anything that you did! As hard as it has been, I do appreciate You sharing your tragic loss in that it keeps us all on our toes, and to be on the watch out for "acute" signs and symptoms that effect our beloved discus, and what the potential cause may be. I have read over the years of others who have been caught in the same predictament and can only wish that when "additives/enhancements" are being put into our water supply that "Fair Warning" was a required legal responsibility of the water depts around the country.

regards,
Tad

aggie_67
10-03-2004, 11:46 PM
Bleach certainly could have caused the problem, when I first started out I cleaned a HOB filter with bleach, thought I rinsed it well with hot water. But when I put it on the tank killed 4 of the 5 in the tank.

As a Chemical Engineer have made bleach (caustic and chlorine.) In the reaction an excess of caustic, also know as lye or sodium hydroxide always remains. It has always been one of the chemicals I fear most as it is so hard to wash off.

Now if I ever clean with bleach, rinse, add vinegear and test for an acid ph, then rinse again. Vinegar rinses off easily.

Now I use potasium permanganate.

Ardan
10-04-2004, 06:25 AM
Wow!
Thanks everyone for your comments and Information. 8) 8) :)
I agree Tad, there should be a law!
Sodium hydroxide is hard to wash off, never gave that a thought, will rinse with vinegar too if it ever happens again. PP did not work???
Using caution and catching changes in the water supply are very necessary.

Thanks
Ardan

Carol_Roberts
10-04-2004, 11:36 AM
I think it's time to get some of the new colors and varieties you always wanted and didn't have room for :)

brewmaster15
10-04-2004, 01:53 PM
I Agree with Carol!

Ardan,

We need to finish that discussion we started last week! ;) :) :)

-al

ShinShin
10-04-2004, 02:07 PM
I have no idea what type of bleach you guys are using but, one of the reasons bleach is so good to used on glass is that it rinses right off of it. ???