What are the Negatives of color enhancing Discus with hormones?

[chuckbam]

What are the Negatives of color enhancing Discus with hormones?

[ShinShin]

Sterility

[GulfCoastDiscus]

This subject was up awhile back.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20606

[simply_fishlover]

Colored enhancing discus with hormones have no negative effects. It all in your head. Discus are pets in a toilet bowel aquarium. It makes no sense if they don't look good by enhancing their colors is one way. They don't need to worry about other fishes or predators eating them. They don't need worry about camouflage like in a natural environment that they are normally in. Enhancing colors for discus is a natural way of evolutions because it's only make sense if the discus has the color in advance to start with. I know you can't turn a blue discus to become a red dicus by feeding enhanced colored food. You can't make a sick discus (black color for some) to come bright in it's normal colored. Similarly, " you can't make pig fly when it has no wings to start with." If we, human, are more advance every day in general then can't we help discus to become better in color. After all, discus in your tank or mine is no different they are pets, not natural fish in the wild. It's artificial product made by men for men's entertainment. If you like discus in its natural environment then I suggest you to leave the discus alone in it's pond. ;D

Yes, I know this subjects was brought up before and I read all the posts but there is no good proof of any kinds of problems. Remember, if enhanced discus die from feeding enhanced colored food, then there would be no second generation of enhanced discus to worry about or carrying on the gene. Well, that would be enough to get someone to response back.

[Augusto]

Hi DiscusKing,

What kind of hormonde use and how?

[ShinShin]

Color enhancement by food additives and hormones are two different processes with two different effects on the discus. If one thinks color cannot be changed by hormones, I suggest they read a book or two. Yeng's 2nd edition of his book, Penang Discus, for example, shows a series of photographs of a hormone treated discus. And, yes, sterility is a possibllity in these cases. :)

[simply_fishlover]

Color enhancement can be done by feeding with Tetracolorbits food only. As for me, I mixed tetracolorbits, dry shrimp, prawn, beefheart and beefs from the market in a processor. Feed the discus twice daily. WC once every 3 weeks to 1 month and half.

I have seen from a golden sunrise color discus to become a Marlboro red discus. It is quite interesting to see the changed. ;D

[Augusto]

Thanks ShinShin, i will try to buy this book.

DiscusKing, i already feed my discus with color bits, beef heart and brine shrimp. can i do something more than that? ???

[simply_fishlover]

I met a breeder from Singapore. Saw his discus and asked what did he fed them to have such beautiful color fishs, especially the red solid color. They are quite impressive. Believe me, even the same 2-3'' discus have a nice color pattern. His main ingredient is the beefheart from the cow made in the U.S. Feed it daily and wait for the color changed. 8)

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I don't think most who feed hormones will tell you.

Dan

[Augusto]

Yeah Dan, it is what I am seeing! :-\

Discus King, can i use beefheart from the cow made in the Brazil? ;D

[Don_Lee]

I must say that I am sure that there are negative effects related to hormones and discus. Just like steroids cause problems in humans, I would be willing to bet hormones cause problems in fish. Personally, I would not want fish that have been fed hormones to look better due to the potential for liver and other physiological damage.

Don

[Webzilla]

So, Let's just assume I wanted to give my fish hormones, to enhance their beauty, since I don't breed them. Let's assume I have a killer show tank and i want to make my fish the best they can possibly look. Lets assume that I don't care if my discus only grows 5" and lives 2 years.

What is this hormone and where do you get it?

I mean we all have our opinions on this hormone stuff... So what "excactly" are we debating about all over the place these days?

Identifying this hormone for me please....

Thanks,

Webz.....

[Augusto]

Webzilla, this is the point! every body have your opinion about hormones but the question as you say is "What is this hormone and where do you get it?"

Unhaply as Dan said:

I don't think most who feed hormones will tell you.

[Don_Lee]

I would not be the one to disclose all that I know about where to get hormones for discus because I do not believe in them. If you talk to some of the major breeders, maybe some would help you as some do use hormones and have discussed their use in posts here. The book "Penang Discus" has some specific info about hormones...........

Don

[simply_fishlover]

I believe they are referring all hormone products are food that are not normally consume by discus in the wild. For instance, beefheart, tetracolorbits, beef, prawn, chicken, or combination of these products or others. I willing to bet it's all a myth about discus will be sterile or die after 2 years. These comments are so untrue. Just because people can't keep their discus from dieing that does not mean that they have liver problem. For example, discus live a toilet bowel aquarium even if they like it or not. They will adapt or die. Toilet bowel will be dirty no matter what. Liver problem is a comment problem for all discus in a home aquarium because water quality is not good weather it is feed by enhancing product or normal food. ;D

[Don_Lee]

I do not agree Discusking. We strive to have the best water quality with advanced filtration and water change mechanisms..........are you saying that we might as well feed the discus poison because they are poisoned anyway? Why give the discus a product that is chemically originated to enhance color and nothing else? We give discus foods that we feel are nutritious, and some may enhance color as a side benefit. Giving a chemical only for appearance is irresponsible IMO.

Don

[simply_fishlover]

Hey Dan,

I bet it will be interesting if I conduct an experiment on my discus tank. How about this experiment: 1) discus, angels, frontosa, cichlid, and rainbow fishs live in the same tank with no problem. 2) WC only when it is necessary, let say once every 1 to 2 month per time. 3) enhancing color food for the fish.

my tank is 140 gallon tank with lots of discus and other fishs. Details on how many fishes will be given later. It will be an on going experiment. I will post picture of the water condition and fish every other day or every day. Until all the fish die. How is that for deal.

This will hopefully answer all the questions people have over the years!

ps: If you any of you like to see other fish all in the same tank than do ask. I will try to add more fish in the tank if you like.

[Webzilla]

Well there seems to be a problem here... Were is this hormone? What is it called? What is the name of this hormone? What is its makeup? It's called something? Don't tell me no one really knows?

I sure dont' know thats why I'm asking. How can anyone make a valid case for this if no one can produce what it is we are talking about?

Surely we haven't been having this hormone debate over and over and over - over freakin' color bits and food like this?

How can one make an intellegent argument about hormones and no one here freakin' knows what we are talking about?

Once we know "This so called hormone" we call study the cause and effect of it. What ever it is?????????????????????????????????

I'm so freakin' confused now....

Webz.....

[simply_fishlover]

I believe hormone foods are considered manmade products. My discus is manmade. I use market beefheart, prawn, beef, dry shrimp, multi vitamins, and mixed with tetracolorbits. I think my ingredient is considered hormone enhanced product, eventhough they are all natural products, except the tetracolorbits which I don't know where it comes from. Well, let me know if this is considered hormone enhanced product. Last month, I was in Singapore. I met this breeder he use beefheart as his main enhancing product.

[Webzilla]

I do not agree Discusking. We strive to have the best water quality with advanced filtration and water change mechanisms..........are you saying that we might as well feed the discus poison because they are poisoned anyway? Why give the discus a product that is chemically originated to enhance color and nothing else? We give discus foods that we feel are nutritious, and some may enhance color as a side benefit. Giving a chemical only for appearance is irresponsible IMO.

Don


Don,

I know you read all the books, you know this stuff... But I ask you, Sponge filters are not advanced, nor is daily water changes whether automated or not.

I think DiscusKing may be on to something here, and I'm curious to find out what it is we are saying here... I think I see it, I just want to make absolutely sure what "it" is...

The only dumb question is the only one not asked... or answered...

Webz.....

[Webzilla]

If we are talking about the equation Hormones=ColorBit (and/or) Manmade food - I'm really gonna be one pissed off Simply Discus Member. All this time, these people lead me to believe it was a drug or substance chemically manifactured under a specific name.

Please tell me this isn't true.... Cause if it is, I have lost a lot of respect for a lot of people... I hope to god this isn't true....

Webz.....

[simply_fishlover]

Well, the old school is the chemical way. Hardly anyone I know use this method now. The new generation is the vitamins and natural enhancing products.

[Don_Lee]

I do not agree Discusking. We strive to have the best water quality with advanced filtration and water change mechanisms..........are you saying that we might as well feed the discus poison because they are poisoned anyway? Why give the discus a product that is chemically originated to enhance color and nothing else? We give discus foods that we feel are nutritious, and some may enhance color as a side benefit. Giving a chemical only for appearance is irresponsible IMO.

Don


Don,

I know you read all the books, you know this stuff... But I ask you, Sponge filters are not advanced, nor is daily water changes whether automated or not.

I think DiscusKing may be on to something here, and I'm curious to find out what it is we are saying here... I think I see it, I just want to make absolutely sure what "it" is...

The only dumb question is the only one not asked... or answered...

Webz.....


Webz,

I am certainly not an expert.......and you make a good point about sponge filters and water changes not being advanced. I would say RO water, pH meters, conductivity meters, wet/dry filters, pumps that can move 1200 GHP, etc.........is somewhat "advanced."
I certainly do not consider Tetrabits or beefheart "hormones." I consider methyl testosterone and some of the other pure "chemicals" used only for color enhancement as "hormones." I am sure that the pure hormones are much stronger and more toxic than the small amount of "hormones" that may be present in beefheart etc.......
There are no dumb questions IMO either..........

Don

[Webzilla]

You got to be kidding me? When did vitimans and colorbits = hormones? Anyone that thinks vitimans are hormones is an idiot... I don't care how much you think you know about this hobby... And let me tell you fish that take a multivitiman "The ones I Take" Are better off for it, and they don't die in two years... Shesh... Stop spreading roumors about hormoned fish if that is all you can come up with...

A Fish that takes vitimans is not hormoned.... Period!

Webz.....

[simply_fishlover]

I tell you this discus I see in Singapore are fed with mainly beefheart as the main diet. Their color are exceptional to any discus on the internet I see. At the size of 2-3 inches but their color are solid red or full color dots. The breeder has won a prize in the Asian market. I personal like solid color. I can see the different from my discus already. Just a few months of feeding and their is major different in color.

If you don't considered what I feed to my discus is hormoned enhancing product then there is nothing to say!

[Webzilla]

I do not agree Discusking. We strive to have the best water quality with advanced filtration and water change mechanisms..........are you saying that we might as well feed the discus poison because they are poisoned anyway? Why give the discus a product that is chemically originated to enhance color and nothing else? We give discus foods that we feel are nutritious, and some may enhance color as a side benefit. Giving a chemical only for appearance is irresponsible IMO.

Don


Don,

I know you read all the books, you know this stuff... But I ask you, Sponge filters are not advanced, nor is daily water changes whether automated or not.

I think DiscusKing may be on to something here, and I'm curious to find out what it is we are saying here... I think I see it, I just want to make absolutely sure what "it" is...

The only dumb question is the only one not asked... or answered...

Webz.....


Webz,

I am certainly not an expert.......and you make a good point about sponge filters and water changes not being advanced. I would say RO water, pH meters, conductivity meters, wet/dry filters, pumps that can move 1200 GHP, etc.........is somewhat "advanced."
I certainly do not consider Tetrabits or beefheart "hormones." I consider methyl testosterone and some of the other pure "chemicals" used only for color enhancement as "hormones." I am sure that the pure hormones are much stronger and more toxic than the small amount of "hormones" that may be present in beefheart etc.......
There are no dumb questions IMO either..........

Don


OK Now we are getting somewhere... methyl testosterone... Let me do some research and I'll get back to you... Because I don't know what this is... and I will find out its cause and effect...

So do colorbits fall into this catagory?

Webz.....

[Webzilla]

I tell you this discus I see in Singapore are fed with mainly beefheart as the main diet. Their color are exceptional to any discus on the internet I see. At the size of 2-3 inches but their color are solid red or full color dots. The breeder has won a prize in the Asian market. I personal like solid color. I can see the different from my discus already. Just a few months of feeding and their is major different in color.

If you don't considered what I feed to my discus is hormoned enhancing product then there is nothing to say!


No - You are absolutely 100% Correct... Beefheart is fine... Colorbits are fine... And if that is the extent of hormoning then shesh - what's the big freakin' deal?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

discusking,
I think you're a bit confused. Just because you been to singapore and seen what they feed their fish does not make you an expert. They don't tell you what's in the beefheart.
Beefheart and tetrabits is not hormoned. The Cattle might've been fed hormoned but what people are refering to here is Chemical hormoned such as CR5 and CR6
Changing water once in 1 to 2 months will not make your fish grow to 8" and colorup with just tetrabits in your beefheart.
And with Frontosa? You must be kidding.

How many tanks do you have and how many discus do you own?

How long have you raise or kept discus?

Show me some pics.

Dan

Hey John, Call Cary and he'll tell you about CR5,6 and some other type of hormoned use. DiscusKing does not know what he's talking about.

[Webzilla]

Dan,

That is what I'm saying - how can vitimans be considered a hormone? They can't they are vitimans... I'm going to check into some of these things deeper because I'm curious about all this. This subject pops up every month - everytime someone gets a batch of some awesome discus everyone start to fling mud.. And that they all say they are hormoned? Then here we go back into the conversation again... But no one ever says what this hormone is. Now we have something to go on.

Webz.....

[simply_fishlover]

Like I said my definition of hormone is a manmade product. In the wild, discus will not be feeding on daily beefheart, prawn, beef from a cow, vitamins, etc... at the same. If you don't considered this hormone enhancing product then what is hormone to you? If this is the case most Asian discus are not hormonely fed. They are naturally enhanced product, not hormone. hahaha! ;D

[simply_fishlover]

Hey Dan,

I am currently keeping two frontosa with all my discus in the same tank. They don't give any problem to any fish. It like the U.S. we are a mixing pots. My 2 albino discus are 4-5 inches in size. I have kept in the tank way before the discus come in the tank but they cause no problem to the discus or other fishes.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Like I said my definition of hormone is a manmade product. In the wild, discus will not be feeding on daily beefheart, prawn, beef from a cow, vitamins, etc... at the same. If you don't considered this hormone enhancing product then what is hormone to you? If this is the case most Asian discus are not hormonely fed. They are naturally enhanced product, not hormone. hahaha! ;D


Dude,
Beefheart, prawns are not manmade product. Of course we can't give them what they normally eat in the wild but the protein we give them are not considered hormones.

You need to dig a little deeper when you go back to Singapore. Like I said most that feed food laced with hormones will not tell you they do. If you see a 2" fully spotted discus then more than likely they been hormoned.

You haven't answered my previous question. How long have you been in the hobby? Have you kept discus and change water once every 1 to 2 months?
Fishfarms in Singapore usually change 100% to 200% of their water everyday.


Dan

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hey Dan,

I am currently keeping two frontosa with all my discus in the same tank. They don't give any problem to any fish. It like the U.S. we are a mixing pots. My 2 albino discus are 4-5 inches in size. I have kept in the tank way before the discus come in the tank but they cause no problem to the discus or other fishes.


I wouldn't suggest keeping Frontosas with any other fish except their own. When they get to breeding age you'll wake up to find your discus dead.

Dan

[simply_fishlover]

Hey Dan,
In general I have kept fish for over 12 or 13 years constantly from 1991 or 2 until now. I have many fishs in the past. I have kept discus with numerous kinds of fish. To name a few with discus are koi, goldfish, comet, loaches, plecos, rainblow, catfish, neon, angel, cichlid, and arowana. So how do I know they work well together or not by personal experiences. It is more than words said by anyone. So people here are conservative and only like. Well, I am the guy that would change all that thinking. I tend to go on the extreme side some good and some bad choice. I know for a fact discus and angel do well together not for breeding purpose but just in the same tank as tank mate. No problem in the past and so is now. Cichlids, like red parrots, are good with discus too if you kept few 4 or more together with the discus. Frontosa are good so far I kept together with the discus for over 1 and half so no problem. Space is very important even if you have nice big discus together if you don't provide big space to stay they still bite together like cichlid. Discus are cichlid like angel or cousin.

My 140 gallon tank contains: two BD with 7'' and 4'' in size, one marlboro orangy red 6'', one goldensunrise 5'', one yellow crystal 4'', one rosered 6'', 4 san merah from 3'' to 4'' in size, two snow white from 3'' to 4'', three mandrian passion from 2'' to 3.5'' in size, one pigeonblood 2'', two albino angel from 4'' to 5'', two rainblow fish from 2'' to 3'', two frontosa from 1'' to 2'', two plecos from 3'' to 4'', and last one prochilotus 3.5''.
the total fishes in the tank is 25 fishes. ;D

[GulfCoastDiscus]

With that many fish, you only change water once every 1 to 2 months?
I'm sorry if I sound harsh. Although changing your water once every 1 to 2 months works for you, most people on this forum who has successfully kept and bred discus will tell you that they do water changes daily.

You been to Singapore and visited fishfarm. Tell me, do they change water once every 1 to 2 months?


Dan

[henryD]

Ok I will bite..

Angel with discus....ok.

Red parrot cichlid with discus....ok

rainbow fish with discus....ok

plecos with discus.... ok

arrowana with discus....ok

frontosa with discus I have not tried.... but would think it could work also.
I noticed your fronts are very small. So I can see how they would be ok in the tank.

It really depends on what your goal is. If you want the discus to be the best that they can be. Then I think you would be better off keeping them with other discus and doing the extra work.

If all you want is a community tank for viewing pleasure then you can keep discus with any other type of fish. Just don't expect it to be the most ideal discus. (unless you bought a large discus and added in the tank later).

At a local LFS. I have seen them throw discus in a oscar tank. Now the discus was big...5-6 inch wild. And the oscar was tiny. 1-2 inch the most.
Same thing with arrowana. If it was the other way around. (big arrowana/oscar and small discus) I would doubt the discus would still be alive.

As for colorbits, vitamins, and beefheart = hormone, if you have been keeping discus for 12-13 years, then I doubt you think that is true. Or do you?


Henry

[Webzilla]

It is "totally" Rediculous to think that Beefheart, Tetra ColorBits, Prawns and Shrimp are even close to consider a hormone man. If one thinks that then that is or has to be the funniest statement ever posted on Simply. I have a few names of some of these hormones, I will research them and see what I can find. We will then make and intellegent statement on the issue. Until that point I suggest we stop saying these food are hormones because they are not.

Now it is true that is a cow is hormoned and you get the heart of that cow and prepare beefheart from it, then yes logic would tend to believe that hormones are possibly still present in that heart. But hey! We eat that meat daily from hamburgers to ribs. And besides that, how would you ever know anyway?

Webz......

[Augusto]

Please DiscusKing stops to say that ColorBits, Beefheart and Vitaminas are hormones. All know that they are not, you are causing confusion insisting on this.

We are talking about chemical hormones, not foods and vitamins that help to enhance the natural colors of the fish, so we have here CR5, CR6 and methyl testosterone. Some more than either used with discus? about use reference or any thing related?

Thanks all!

[Webzilla]

Methyl Testosterone (Methyltestosterone)

Appearance white or slightly yellowish crystalline powder
Identification Positive
Melting point 163~168¡æ
Specific Rotation +79˚~+83˚
Loss on drying <=1.0%
Related substances <=1%
Residue on ignition <=1%
Assay 97.0~103.0%
Reference Standard JPXIV

Usage: Methyltestosterone (methyl testosterone) is a hormone used in men to treat testosterone deficiency, and in women to treat breast cancer, as well as breast pain and swelling following pregnancy. Methyltestosterone (methyl testosterone) is also combined with estrogen to treat symptoms associated with menopause.

Cichlid Coloration Control and Enhancement

by Jason Selong

Coloration is controlled by the endocrine and nervous system, but dietary sources of pigment also play a role in determining color in fishes. The endocrine and nervous system both influence coloration in fish. The pituitary gland secretes hormones that direct the production and storage of pigments throughout the life of a fish, and particularly as maturity is reached. Pigment production and storage often increases at the onset of maturity. Many species use color to provide camouflage and attract a mate. Fish of the family Cichlidae are particularly known for brilliant coloration of mature males. The autonomic nervous system directs rapid color changes in response to stimuli such as a predator or an aggressive tankmate. Anyone who has observed fish knows this color change can occur at a spectacular rate.


Specialized pigment containing cells called chromatophores are located beneath the scales. These cells are branched, permitting pigment granules to be near or away from the surface and aggregated or dispersed. These cells are the reason for the variable and sometimes rapid changes in fish color. Additionally, colorless purine crystals are contained in specialized chromatophores called iridophores. These crystals are too large to move in the iridophores but are stacked to provide a reflecting surface and the base or structural coloration of fishes. The iridophores are responsible for the silver sheen, particularly of small pelagic fish. These cells are capable reflectors of light and are responsible for the counter shading effect where fish appear darker when viewed from above and lighter when viewed from below. This mechanism helps detour predation.

Pigments are characterized by their colors. Carotenoid pigments are red and orange. Xanthophylls are yellow. Melanin pigments are black and brown. Phycocyanin is the blue pigment derived from blue-green algae. Cells containing yellow pigments overlying those containing blue pigments can produce green hues. Fish are capable of producing some pigments, but others must be supplied in the diet. Black and brown pigments are produced in cells called melanocytes. Fish are incapable of producing carotenoid and xanthophyll pigments. Therefore, these must be supplied in the diet.

Natural sources of pigments are available in the diets of most fish. Color enhancing diets may contain additional natural pigments to enhance colors of ornamental fishes. The carotenoid pigment found in most marine and a few freshwater invertebrates is astaxanthin. This pigment gives the characteristic color to the flesh of salmon and is available in the diet of aquarium fish in shrimp and krill meals and salmon (fish) meal used as sources of protein in some feeds. Pure astaxanthin or canthaxanthin (synthetic astaxanthin) may also be added to fish feed to enhance red and orange coloration. These carotenoid pigments are often added to feeds for farm raised salmon and trout to give fillets a desirable red color. Xanthophylls (yellow pigments) are found in corn gluten meal and dried egg that may be added to the diet to enhance yellows. The ground petals of marigold flowers have also been used as a source of xanthophylls. The blue-green algae spirulina is a rich source of phycocyanin and may be added to a diet to enhance blue coloration. The expense of supplementary pigments often limits the amount used in tropical fish feeds. These natural sources of pigments are in contrast to several methods routinely used to enhance colors of ornamental fish.

A discussion of enhancing colors of ornamental fish would be incomplete without mention of dyeing and painting fish, and feeds containing hormones. The practice of painting essentially colorless fish (e.g. glassfish) has become widespread. The neon colored paint is non-toxic, but the handling and painting, coupled with shipping stress often invites disease problems. These fish often contract ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) and fungal infections. The paint is shed in time and the fish returns to being colorless which may be more disturbing to someone paying a premium for "painted" fish. Dyeing colorless fish has recently become popular. The fish are immersed in water containing dye and the immersion and handling may lead to the aforementioned disease problems. Hormones may be used to enhance fish coloration by causing a false early maturity. Testosterone supplied in the diet likely allows a premature storage and expression of pigments in the chromatophores. Fish that often exhibit drab juvenile coloration may then show full adult coloration. Fish treated with hormones often become all male, sterile, and require a continuous dietary supply of hormones to maintain coloration. The sex of juvenile fish is often ambiguous and hormone diets, most often containing testosterone, create all male fish. Uncontrolled doses of testosterone sterilize fish. Endogenous production of hormones ceases, so coloration is not maintained when fish are taken off the hormone treated feed. Fish feeds containing hormones do have legitimate commercial uses in Tilapia (Oreochromis spp.) diets (Teichert-Coddington et al. 2000). Tilapia growers are hampered by the fact that this cichlid often matures prior to reaching market size. The fish farmer often ends up with mixed size classes and stunting of fish in growout ponds if the tilapia are allowed to mature and reproduce. Feed energy also goes into producing gametes instead of fish flesh. Feeds containing hormones have been used to provide all male groups of tilapia for growout. These diets contain testosterone since males grow faster. The feed is administered to juvenile fish prior to growout and is currently undergoing FDA approval for food fish. Given the current status, this feed is probably not widely available to ornamental fish growers and hobbyists and would be of little use enhancing color of fish already sold as adults which encompass most ornamental fish with the notable exception of cichlids. There is no specific way to tell if a fish has been fed a diet containing hormones except to be vigilant of the fish you purchase. If it looks to good to be true, it probably is!

Water quality may also play a support role in determining the color of ornamental fish. Degraded water quality increases stress on captive fish and may dull fish colors. A high quality biological filter and routine -at least bi-weekly- water changes will provide an environment enabling fish displaying their brightest colors.

Hobbyists may wish to experiment with their own color enhancing diet. There are several recipes for gelatin-based feeds available in other publications, notably Moe (1982) and Konings (1993). I would recommend the protein portion of these diets (e.g. shrimp, fish, squid) be replaced with salmon fillets. Salmon are a good source of carotenoid pigments that enhance reds. Additionally, all essential amino acids will be supplied using salmon as a protein source and the higher lipid content in salmon will promote better utilization of the protein. The addition of high quality pure spirulina powder will enhance blue pigments. This can be purchased from aquaculture suppliers. Any gelatin based diet should be stored frozen to maintain freshness and used within several weeks. Feeding a varied diet rich in sources of pigments along with good water quality will ensure captive fish develop vivid colors.

[RyanH]

:thumbsup:

[Augusto]

Nice Webzilla!

Also I found this text in the Cichlid-Forum.com but it is very vacant, I very believe that not aid to our intention. The majority of the texts that I found is in Japanese or Chinese. I will do a better search and post here the results!

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Thank you Henry, John and Augusto,
I'm sorry if I seem little upset but I'm afraid that this guy might be misleading newcomers into the hobby. Although his ways works for him, I don't think it's the norm from others that's been in the hobby awhile. Imagine 1 waterchange every 1 to 2 months.

Dan

[Webzilla]

Dan,

Yes - we are dedicated to this hobby and we don't need rumors about hormones and foods. To be honest we will put this issue to bed once and for all - once we have all the facts we can make educated statements - and not enhance a myth.

Webz.....

[Augusto]

Hi all,

I gave one searched but I did not find nothing of that i wanted, only some related sites, i presume as i am seeing the breeders does not like to divulge these stuff.

Some links:
http://www.ingenta.com/isis/searching/Expand/ingenta?pub=infobike://klu/fish/2002/00000027/F0020003/05270071
http://www.dbs.nus.edu.sg/Staff/chtan.html
http://www.google.com.br/search?q=cache:qKpZg3SDO2oJ:aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/apr/ctsa/AAR%252099%2520for%2520pdf.pdf+%22methyltestostero ne%22%2B%22fish%22%2B%22Symphysodon%22&hl=pt-BR&start=2

[Webzilla]

I think the main thing that bothers me the most about these hormones being used on fish is a hormoned fish that is female can turn into a male fish? Now this is very, very interesting... Thus making male fish infertial and female fish useless for the purpose of breeding.

With that said it is a wonder we hardly ever see them awesome leapords producing fry.

I tend to lean towards that fact that dispite the hormones may enhance awesome colors in younger fish there is "solid" evidence that they will fall short of their life cycle and be useless in a breeding program.

This is a fact - researched and published by PHd's...


Webz.....

[Webzilla]

What are the Negatives of color enhancing Discus with hormones?


Chuckbam - Does that answer your question? We should now be aware that it can change the sex of a female fish and make both sexes infertale <sp>. Along with drastically reducing the life span of our fish.

That is a big negitive...

Webz.....

[Jeff]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=21172

[Jeff]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=20974

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=21077

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=21438

[Webzilla]

Jeff,

A Perfect example of a fish that is maintained in a good enviroment and not hormoned from the onset.

Thanks,

Webz.....

[Jeff]

Well I know for a fact most of those were hormoned. I'm glad you are happy with the results though. Makes you wonder doesn't it? :o ::)

[Webzilla]

Jeff,

Well you know how to throw a wrench into the mess... ;D

Like they say in Texas - you can lead a dog to a field but you can't make em' $hit. Hehehehhe - ;D

I'm not against hormones, nor do I really care..... And I'm glad that you are honest about these fish being hormoned. Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read.

As long as the consumer know in advance of purchasing hormoned Discus - hey all the power to them...

Webz.....

[Jeff]

It can go either way. If over done it's fatal. All I want to point out is have an open mind. Don't make vague statements. Look at all info as it is presented.

[Webzilla]

The info presented that I have found points to the fact that the only good the comes out of hormoning is color enhancement... That is a good thing IMO... there is nothing that points to being Vague in the articles I have read.. It is hard cold facts... Remember, I didn't write it I just found it and presented it as it is...

Webz....

[Jeff]

Yes you are correct. But there can be many side effects that come with hormoning. People need to be aware of all the facts then they can make their own decision if they want that fish or not.

[ShinShin]

This thread is what can happen when people talk what they do not know. ;)

[Webzilla]

Yes you are correct. But there can be many side effects that come with hormoning. People need to be aware of all the facts then they can make their own decision if they want that fish or not.


Jeff,

Are there other side effects that have not been made public knowledge in this thread? If so, please share - we "all" deserve to know. WE = Consumers....

Thanks,

Webz.....

[Webzilla]

This thread is what can happen when people talk what they do not know. ;)


ShinShin,

I think some of us may know more now then we did prior to this thread... You have anything to add to this that you believe should be made public knowledge?

Thanks,

Webz.....

[Jeff]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20606

It was all listed here. What Chuck has posted is 100% correct in some instances. He has posted the worst case. BUT it all depends on how it was done, the amount, and the duration. That is the breeders trade secret. That is what gives them their edge. Some breeders can do it the discus lives and reproduces while other breeders can't do it.

For this reason I can post all day long cases where hobbyists have bought hormoned discus they reach 6+ inches spawn and keep going. Then an opponent of hormones can post right behind me of a hobbyist who bought hormoned discus and lost them all within one month.

There are no winners in this debate. I can't prove to you that a hormoned discus is going to live and reproduce and you can't prove to me that every hormoned discus I sell will lose it's color and die before it reaches maturity because it was hormoned. There are too many other factors that effect the life of a discus besides just hormones.

I try to align myself with breeders who have a track record of being able to successfully administer hormones to bring out color while having the least effect on the breeding of the discus. In my opinion the discus will have a shortned life cycle of 2 years or less I'm guessing. Who are these breeders? I'm not telling. I have invested my time, energy, and money to find out. That is my competative edge.

I try to be aware of the fact hormoned discus are not for everyone. I try to steer new hobbyists away from these discus until they have experiance in keeping discus. At the same time I personally enjoy the satisfaction that my hormoned discus give me and I want to share that with others as they become ready to keep them.

[Webzilla]

Jeff,

Your explaination of hormoned fish should earn you total respect from the community here. I totally repect the way you explained this to me and to the people that read this thread. You are honest and upfront on this issue. And that is awesome. No - I wouldn't want you or others to give up your competitive edge on anything in your business. I think this all started when Hep came back with $250.00+ 2.5" fish and everyone one was shocked. He has stated publically these are hormoned, you have to respect that too. My position was what this hormone was, then DiscusKing came in here and started giving the impression Colorbits and beefheart were hormones. You and I know this is not true, and now the community does too. Jeff, we all know you have awesome fish, we appreciate your honesty on this hormone matter and value your knowledge with the discus fish.

Thank you for your post...

Webz......

[simply_fishlover]

To all,

Yes hormones in general is a big issue to talk about. We can spend days discussing different hormones and their effect. I do recognize that chemical mention by webzilla are dangerous hormone to practice. People should not use heavy dose. However, enhancing color of discus has changed over the year. We can't just look at the chemical aspect and stop there. According to Dick Au, BACK TO NATURE GUIDE TO DISCUS, on page 111-2, he wrote "the successful development and availability of the solid turquoise discus as well as all the hybrids from the pigeon blood greatly reduce the hormone induced color enhancement. Commercial producers in the Far East are still enhancing the red coloration of the discus by feeding them iwth fresh water shrimp eggs or foods iwth a high concentration of beta carotene. This natural color enhancing enhancing food has no long term detrimental effects. After teh red coloration fades away, there will be no permanent damage to the health of the fish. When purchasing young discus, be skeptical of those that are intensely red or blue because juveniles of even the most colorful breeds do not have that color intensity naturally and eventually that bright color will fade away as the fish matures."

From this quote color enhancement of discus has evolve over the years. We can't just say it need to be a chemical substance to classified as color enhancing hormone. Let me give an example of the best color enhancement for fish ever since the discovery of color enhancement.

We all know know about the red parrot cichlid. They are manmade fish. They are considered to be sterile fish and can't be breed. Then why there are so many in the market with so many different color variety? Yellow, pink, red, purple, orange etc... in the market today. I believe the red parrot cichlid can be inject with dye that over time will fade away. Similarly, it can work for discus. Specially the LSS, it is easy to fake the red dot or any color dots they want to come with. Remember the white albino gouramy fish. You notice over the summer they came out the color pattern like diamond shape red or purple or orange on the side of the scale. I believe the also inject dye in the scale to stain it. Over time will fade away. LSS has small injecting dye to some scale is easy to do. They dont even need to inject on all the scale just some dots is good because LSS has some dots already. Yes, over time some dots will remain but most will disappear.

There is no discus farm or fishfarms that will try hormone enhancement color on their fish for long term because it will be a lost of business if the fish are to die or become sterile. Enchancing color has changed so much over the years. Don't be frog under the well and looking up at the sky and see the world as a small picture. Free your mind and think outside the box and look at the whole world of fish is changing.

A good example is the asian flowerhorn that is a manmade product. Like discus today, they are all manmade products breed from the toilet bowel aquarium for our entertainment. They are not real fish from the wild. Where gene and natural sellection play into effects. So domenant or recessive gene can be reverse back and fort in the toilet bowel. The discus don't care about getting eat in the tank. Well, got to get going before I am late to work. bye

[Augusto]

In this topic we are going for the same way of the last topic cited for the Jeff.

It is very said what the hormones does, coletaral efects, if is correct or not to use, etc. But nothing of speaking in the hormones properly said, names and how to use them!

Which is the meaning of CR6?

[CARY_GLdiscus]

THEY ARE NOT ALL FED TO FISH!

most soak the fish in it!


I still say If you gather everyone up from all 3 fourms over 80% have had problems with hormoned Discus even the pro's ;)

Gld!

P.S Good write up Jeff ;D

[nanik]

THEY ARE NOT ALL FED TO FISH!

most soak the fish in it!


Yikesssss :o :o :o :o they soak the fish in it ? do they soak it like how we do the "bath treatment" ??? ??? ???

[Webzilla]

Soaking fish in hormones is incredible. These breeders must be really trying to jack us consumers.

As long as we buy these fish they will continue to find ways to enhance the colors there is no way around it.

Webz.....

[brewmaster15]

A Little Knowledge is a Dangerous Thing in the wrong Hands :) :)

Buyer Beware...The use of hormones to make a Pretty Discus is risky business if you are the buyer, but real profitable if you are the seller.


Not saying anymore here than I have said post after post.
-al

[simply_fishlover]

Good day all,

Talk about color enhancement. If some crazy discus farm were to try make new strain of discus by using red color dye on a yellow crystal discus to make a spotted goldenleopard discus. I bet no one would know. I copy a real goldenleopard image at sunrisetropicals.com. Here is the pic!

[Webzilla]

Brew and anyone reading this,

I feel as though this information is really important to bring into the hobby. I know a lot of this has been discussed time and time again but with all the importing going on in todays age of the hobby it is more important then ever before.
My research tells me that the use of hormones is very wide spread in Asian breeders.

We consumers spend our hard earned cash on these fish. The spotted fish are seeing more and more hormone use, along with the the red strains. When we (consumers) see the prices rising on these fish, it makes one wonder why someone would by a fish for it to croak less then two years later.

Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful fish as much as the next guy but some of these dealers/breeders are asking 250+ for 2.5" Fish. This is something that is rediculous IMO when health could very well be a concern.

I know there is nothing that can be done about this, it's part of the hobby and it is all directed by market interest in these fish - just goes to show that guilt will never be part of the hobby as long as money and greed is involved - along with us hobbiest willing to pay these prices for these fish.

Webz......

[lauris]

Listen closely as you read this thread. Hear that? Its the beating of a dead horse.

[Webzilla]

There is always one SmartA$$ in the crowd Lauris... ;D

[Jeff]

Webzilla. It's just a choice. It's an offering. If someone wants them they are available. If they do not then they don't have to purchase them. I know the drawbacks and I still chose to keep them myself personally and chose to sell them. I tell the truth as I know it to anyone who asks. I'm not independently wealthy. I work for my money like most everyone else. I buy my discus the same as anyone else. It's my choice of discus. As I have said it's not for everyone.

It would be far easier for me to not get in these discussions and say none of my discus are hormoned like most other breeders and importers do. I rather let everyone know what they are getting from me let them make the choice.

If you look back through old posts it's only Cary and I that debate the use of hormones. Other breeders and importers are mysteriously absent when this topic comes up. I think most everyone knows Cary and I are at different ends of the spectrum on this issue. I respect his posisition and I think he has come to respect mine. Each of us know we will not change the other's view. What we do share in common is we both put everything into this hobby we have and then some.

Of the discus I sell only 2 types are hormoned. The leopards and LSS. Though there are different take offs of these 2 types. Like the mosaics for instance. If people want them they can buy them. If they don't I will keep what I have. Either way it's ok for me.

Thanks to everyone for bringing this out in the open again. I hope everyone is better able to make their educated decision after reading this.

[Webzilla]

Jeff,

Once again it is always nice to see what you have to say. As always there are a few around here that are up front on their practices with the sale of hormoned fish. This isn't anything to be ashamed of by any means, as a matter of fact if there is a market for such fish then someone in your position would be foolish not to tap into such a market. This only makes smart business sense.

I don't understand why some of the breeders always seem to hide their heads in the sand when this topic comes up. As you know, as I do, this practice is not a secret anymore. Perhaps the technique is still a secret, however, that is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. This is for my own and all those that are interested in the actual concept of how these fish are hormoned. Up until yesterday I was under the impression they were fed hormones until Cary mentioned the fact that they also dip fish as well. This is amazing to me.

I don't condon hormoning, it's the consumer and LFS that put the pressure on the breeders to produce colorful smaller fish to sell quickly to the hobbyist, whether it be Discus or another breed of tropicals "mainly chiclids". I'm really just interested in the facts of the practice since finding this information is hard to come by it appears as though it can only be found "from the horses mouth".

Webz.....

[Jeff]

Sure. It's not really a dip. They add hormones into the water the same as you might do with liquid vitamins.

[Jeff]

One other point that needs to be made. Most red discus are color feed with an astaxanthin. Everyone talks about color fading. Even non hormoned discus will have their color fade if they were color feed with an astaxanthin like Naturose before you bought them and now you are not feeding it. If you want to maintain the vibrant red you see you must supplement their diet with some for of an astaxanthin or they will probably lose their color. Here is a good place to get it and just mix it in the beefheart. http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/brine-shrimp-direct-naturose.html

[simply_fishlover]

Well said Jeff ;D

[Webzilla]

Yes, This product is color feeding at its best. It is all natural product, therefore I couldn't see how even the dye hard organic discus keeper can dispute the benifits of its usage in beefheart or any other homemade foods.

A breeder of a show dog would feed his dog the best possible nuitrients to obtain a beautiful coat. IMO, that is excactly what I would want in my fish beautiful tones of red, yellow, orange and whites and any other color I could enhance with "all natural" products not to jepordize their health using hormones.

Jeff, Thanks for bringing this to our attention... Thats why we ask these questions from those more experienced "the breeder" so we can grow our fish to look as beautiful as those show discus. Well at least I do... ;D

Webz.....

[simply_fishlover]

All natural products can be bad if much too are given in a short period of time. Accumulating natural products can be a dangerous. For example, tylenol OTC if given high amounts can be the same as prescription drug. ;D

[Webzilla]

Discus King,

Tylenol is not all natural, I hate to break the news to you. Maryjane is all natural - and it's illegal - so one could make the argument that not all natural products are good for oneself. Then again I assure you Maryjane will do less damage to your body then steriods or hormones! ;D

[GulfCoastDiscus]

John,
This guy is all messed up. :) :) He seem to comment on things he knows nothing about.
Beefheart= hormone
Tylenol= natural product

:o :o

[Webzilla]

You know Dan - I think he is one Taco short of a combination platter :)... LOL... It is incredible what he is saying... I can't believe it everytime I read it...

Webz.....

[Augusto]

You forgot!

Color Bits = hormone

[simply_fishlover]

You guys are so technical. I am not compare the product. I am using it as an analogy to the Amount. Repeating amount will increase the dosage. For example, I know a guy claiming to use natural suppliment to increase his body mass with weight lifting. At the end, he end up in the emergency room with a kidney failure. The doctor in a emergency operation on him. The moral of the story is natural suppliment is good but high amount is bad. By the way, some natural product have hormone enhancing color in it. Look at Jeff's posting earlier. He has a good example of it. ;D

[Webzilla]

Discus King,

One thing you need to be aware of here. There are a whole group of folks that are very active in this hobby, myself included. The experience level in aquaria is overwhelming in all aspects of discus keeping. You can not come in here and obtain repect from most the people here making false statements. If your going to use anologies you might want to pick better ones, because you are way off base using them.

ColorBits = Hormones?
Tylenol=Natural Products?
Beefheart=Hormones?

And your biggest statement to date - Discus live in Toilet bowl water?

Man Discus King, Don't cause confusion here. A Lot or people come here for knowledge and help - and you ain't helping a bit with those type of statements. If you require help with your Discus then this is the place to come. If you feel like you can offer assistance then please make sure you know what you are talking about or at the very least compare apples to apples. It is only fair to those that read your posts that are confused enough with the issues they are having with their fish.

I'm out!

Webz.....

[Multiclone]

What an amazing thread this is better than watching tv.
;) ;) ;)

Geoff

[simply_fishlover]

webzill..

I tell you this all your life you do the right and you will never anything. Yes, there are lots of articles online but so what it tells you nothing. The way to learn something useful do it yourself. When someone brings some thing new just try it. I am not here for respect clearly it is a near view of thing. Don't be so personal, I am here to learn like everyone else. Have you search the internet. Have anyone shows the hormone recipe to achieve the new strain of discus. Well, it times for you guys to open up and experience new way of doing thing. It might be wrong but it is new view of extreme keeping discus. All I see is recommendation of daily WC, drug and quarantine. Well, there people out there that only want the easy way to thing. Not pressure to WC, treat disease, enhanced color, develope new strain. Well you guys need to look deeper. There is nothing out there that offers these kinds of thing. I know conservative method work. Now try something else! ;D

[simply_fishlover]

Webzill

Do you know new technique that fishfarm are doing to come up with new strain of discus?

Do you know the limits of discus tolerance for dirty water? What are the sign and symptoms to look for?

Do you know all the fish that are compatible with discus? What happen if someone like just like to try different fish in the same tank with the discus.
All I see is recommendation if angel and discus don't do well together. There article online out there that prove that but so what that is just one article. Now lets try some new, prove it wrong. I know people are keeping different fish together with discus. Just because they are so fearful of speaking out from people like you, no one know the truth.
;D

[Augusto]

Discus King,

I believe that feed discus with color bits and beefheart to enhance the natural colors of the fish it is not a new technique, and it does not say me that the chemical way is not used any more.

Probably 90% of the users of this fórum know the limits of discus tolerance in dirty water and no one want to test it to see his fishes sick or dead.


What happen if someone like just like to try different fish in the same tank with the discus?

Is clearly that can be tried to keep different species with discus, if some body want to make this, goes in front! I guarantee that it will not add so much our interest that is the Discus and this does not have much to related with the subject of the topic.

I give up, I know that nobody here will pass information on the use of hormones.

[Webzilla]

Discus King,

I do have to admire your willingness to compete with the big boys DK. Although, you have forget all the techniques you mention have been tried back in the late 60' and 70's. I can assure you as I sit here typing this that all fish will benefit from water changes more often then not - and no other fish keeped in the home aqaurium will benefit more then the Discus. It is a proven fact. Filteration methods do not improve water quality they only maintain it. The only way to improve water quality on a continous basis - which I remind you is tested, tried and proven - is to do water changes. I agree there is more than one way to accomplish successful aqauria in the home, but lack of water changes when dealing with the Discus fish is not one of them.

There is nothing wrong with trying new things - as a matter of fact that is how great men become notable by their peers, but I highly suggest you test your hypothosis prior to speaking out on your therories. Get real and help the hobby not hinder it.

I'm out!

Webz.....

[snowfire]

Well said webzilla!