Living Hell (Long Please Help)

[iceskater]

While you were down I have been going through hell. I am thankful to Carol for the assistance she was able to provide in email. I am posting this so others will not suffer the losses I have suffered and in hopes that someone can think of something else I can do before I lose any more fish.

I have had discus now for 2 years. The first year and a half was so smooth, not one illness or death. I was so good changing Water. Keeping healthy fish and changing water daily became a challenge. HINT #1. Once you have missed a day of changing water, it is so easy to skip another and another.

Over the last 6 months I have lost a total of 7 discus. I really can not tell you why. The most recent episode happened recently. I had a fish with popeye. A few of us suspected that a bacterial thing was happening in both of my fish tanks, so I treated both tanks with Kanamycin. Things went well during treatment the fish with the popeye, seemed to get better the eyes went down alot, but was not eating. I stopped the medicine after the 10 days and put in charcoal. I suspect the reason I had so many problems was because I was very very bad at HINT #2 rinsing the sponge filters (THEY WERE DISGUSTING, and it TOOK a long long time for get them to rinse clear). Another problem was the Hint#3 amount of food I was feeding my fish (I wanted them to be big so bad that I fed them way to much). Ironic, there are now very few chances that I will even get 2-3 nice size fish. I would give anything to have the fish I lost back, small or not.

I knew during and after the treatment I was going to have an ammonia problem. I was changing water at 50% twice a day. The other day I noticed a real real foul smell and had ammonia burning my hands so I moved discus into one tank. I was not really thinking because now I have twice the amount of ammonia. Turns out the smell was a bad filter motor. HINT#4, when you are fighting ammonia do not add more fish.

So here I sit today, I have ammonia in my tank even right after WC it is .25. Within 2-3 hours it is .50. I have at least 4-5 fish with wide open gills which are red and fleshy and I do not know how to help them, Other than the salt I am putting in the tank. The red-melon was culled today because it was pale and had not eaten in close to 3 weeks. I have a few fish who suddenly violently shake for a few seconds and then it stops and they act normal. I am changing some water every 2-3 hours and scared to death to look at the fish in the tank because I know I will lose more fish before this is over. But there I am hopeful because none of them are dark and all of them are eating and playful.

NOTE: Since writing this I have lost another fish, this time my prize Golden Leopard. One of the fish has burned fins and all of them are skitish and have a hard time keeping there balance. Ammonia is still out of control. I am now doing 90% WC twice a day. I have not even attempted to feed them today and left the lights off. I did use ammonia lock a few times, and did so again today. I am also adding salt. Is there anything else I can add as well??

So to summarize: These are the lessons I have learned.

1. Rinse those filters, even with a prefilter, they get filthy.
2. Stop listening to people's stories about there 6+ inch fish. Doing so only leads to excess feeding.
3. I will never treat another fish with medicine. It has not worked the 3 times I have tried, I have put healthy fish at risk and my heart is broken. I now believe something Carol said long ago, if it can not be treated with salt of hexamint, she does not try and save it.

Hope this helps someone else. And please pray for me that this hell stops soon and I can get this ammonia under control BTW, It has been 7 days since I stopped the medicine.

[DarkDiscus]

Karen,

Yikes! That's a horror story.

Discus are pretty tough fish, but it goes to show that if you neglect even one part of their maintenance, you will pay in the end. Hopefully if you keep up the clean filters, keep water changes coming and avoid overfeeding some of your fish will make it and recover.

Good luck.

John

[iceskater]

I am noticing a little bit of improvement. It took 4 hours for the ammonia to go up, I did a 50% WC and can now see them moving in the tank, the lights are off and it is pretty dark so I can not see if there gills have reduced. I am going to do another WC tonight of about 90%

Can someone tell me if I can repeat the Ammo Lock, it sez on the bottle to repeat in 2 days with a WC, but when you have changed water 4 times in a day is there still a chance of overdosing???

[discusboy777]

the ammonia in your water could be cuased by a bactierial problem try using quick cure (use two drops a gallon then let sit for 2 hours then do a water change keep doing this till problem salved should only take up to two days.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Karen:
Do not use Quick Cure. You are trying to rebuild bacteria after using Kanacyn. Ammo lock will slow the process. Water changes are your best bet. You have the 55 gallon tank with no fish. Fill it up and run a heater and fitler to age the water. You can do two 90% water changes per day. This should keep your ammonia close to zero.

[discusboy777]

oh i am sorry i thought u where trying to kill bactiera. i didint realise her bio load was shot.

[iceskater]

Hi Again
Thanks Carol, you know I would have went for it. I am so desparate to try anything. I did a middle of the day 50%. Going to do another 90% in a few hours they are more active now. Going to try and feed them just a little bit.

Ironic, the red-white, which has remained solid white, now has a rather large red spot on its fin, which I am sure is ammonia burn.

Oh everyone please follow the advise in Carol's signature, it is so important. Wondering Carol, did you just add that for me????

[April]

iceskater. sorry to hear.. hang in there. sounds like your getting there. we all make mistakes believe me...ive had my ups and downs.
your right..a routine and schedule is best and its not long before it begins to show if you slack off on the changes.
very sorry to hear about your fish. hope the rest will be fine.

[kaceyo]

Carol, do you think some AmQuel might help her as long as all the wc's are kept up? It should leave ammo available to the filter and may ease the stress on the fish. Also you can add it pretty often w/out harm.
Kacey

[iceskater]

Hi Carol & All
Even with the 90% WC ammonia is climbing to .25 within 5 hours. To make matters worse something is irrating my hands and arms. I do think things are slighly improving tonight I saw the most improvement I have seen in days. The red-white along with its red spots now has ragged fins. More fish have become active and some picked at some food tonight. The evening WC is going on as I write this...

Hanging in there. Thanks for the support

[RyanH]

I would reduce or even stop feedings right now until you get your ammonia under control. It is only making matters worse. Discus can go for some time without feedings if need be, and the waste and uneaten food and just fowling your water even more.

[RyanH]

BTW, the reason I posted originally:

I sympathize with you. I had a disease problem over the summer that was absolutely devastating. Unfortunately, we all go through it. Even the people who won't admit that they've gone through it have gone through it! We just need to turn it into a learning experience and move on.

Hang in there! :undecided

[Barb Newell]

Hi Karen, sorry to hear about your losses.

What type of filters and how many do you have running in the tank? Sounds like your bacteria has really been hurt. I've used Kanacyn many times and it's never bothered my bacteria. Did you rinse your sponges in tank water? I wouldn't rinse the sponges again, just leave them and let the bacteria multiply. What size is your tank? How many fish?

Barb

[iceskater]

Hi Barb & All
I have a 60g tank with 8 fish. 2 of them are 6 inchs 5 are about 4-4 1/2. One is barely 3 inches, the real runt of the tank. There is now 3 AC 300's running on it. It normally had 2.

I rinsed the sponges in tank water. I really really rinsed and squeezed them alot taking them from brown back to almost new color in one day. I may have over did it.

Woke up early this morning, turned on night light, did a head count, they all made it during the night. I think I am going to not test the water today and just let them tell me what the ammonia conditions are, I am going to do a 90% WC this morning and again this evening.

I am not putting excess food in tank, perhaps 12-15 pellets of color bits that I remove within 20 minutes if they have not eaten it.

[iceskater]

I am so fickle could not stand it, tested the water. I have ammonia but not as much as I did the past several days this time of day. It has been almost 12 hours without a WC so I am thinking I am almost there... Going to change the water now....

[Cosmo]

Karen,

Depending on where your ph is now, you might try slowly lowering it below 7. Acidic water renders ammonia non-toxic and could buy you some time while the filters regenerate their colonies
Cosmo

[Ax]

glad that you have the light at the end of the tunnel. Carols' advise is great as always.
Just something that works for me: I have potted plants, they help to brake ammonia and absorb nitrates; and because they are potted they could be moved/removed for tank cleanup or treatment.

[Stephish]

Further to Ax, Barb gave me some pothos plant cuttings for my tank - you dangle them in the tank and let them grow roots. Helps with nitrates further down the cycle. Good luck!

[mikeos]

sorry to hear of your problems, for future reference


Hint No. xx. If you have to use meds that kill filter bacteria, then there is no point in leaving the filter in the tank. Remove it and run it in another tank or a bucket and feed it some flake or BH every couple of days. Then you will have a live filter to put back after treatment.

[tlum]

Karen,

If your goal is to rebuild your biological filter ASAP, Bio-Spira may work for you. See the discussion:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=39624

and the link here:

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp#

Terry

[iceskater]

Hi Terry,
I am wondering the same thing. I posted under that topic before I came over to this one. Wondering what others think.

I would imagine it can not hurt.... On second thought I would not replace the existing filter sponges but would do that 90% WC

ALL

I am not ready to do the plant thing since I have ready horror stories about QT plants

Ammonia still present in tank this morning. All the fish made in again last night. The gills are very open still. I understand from Carol that it will take some time once I get this ammonia under control.

I do have another question, does lighting cause ammonia? The reason I ask this is because my ammonia seems to stay lower in the night, and raises during the day. I change Water first thing in am and in the evening 90% both times, I am not feeding. Some times I do put in a few color bits, but remove them after about 30 minutes

[Moon]

Lighting will not cause a change in your Ammonia levels. The reason for higher levels during daytime may be that the fish are active and feeding and this will produce ammonia.
I think you did such a good job cleaning the sponge filter that you removed most of the nitrifying bacteria. If you add an established sponge filter it may help.
Good Luck

[Ax]

Can you stop by at the local store or other Discus keeper and get sponge squeezings. ?

[iceskater]

That idea scares me wouldn't I be at risk for introducing new germs to these already sick fish??

I called on the BIO Spira, the sales rep did not recommend this product for me, It would take 12 days and that they recommend no water changes for 2 weeks doing so will remove the product.

They had the same question as I do. WHERE IS THE AMMONIA COMING FROM, I am changing 90% twice a day, I am not feeding these fish and there is no waste, so why ISN"T it under control now. They suggested a new PH test kit, which I got, tested the water and it is higher than it was on the old, but in all fairness it has been much longer since I changed water today. Doing my 90% now and will test again to be sure it is zero.

At my wits end

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Karen:

Fish "exhale" ammonia through their gills and they excrete ammonia through their vents. The ammonia is higher because the fish are more active and eating during the day - also you may be getting false positives from the ammo lock. Cut back to two feedings per day. Feed either flakes or bits or frozen blood worms (no beefheart and no brineshrimp).

Two 90% water changes per day in your bare tank should control ammonia with no filters what so ever. The kanacyn killed the filters - they will bounce back. Make sure you add dechlor to the water before adding to the tank or the chlorine will kill the new bacteria on the filters and burn the gills.

[iceskater]

Update:
I tested my water right after my water change. It was zero, so I am sure I had no ammonia to start with. I did 2 things different this time. When at the fish store I purchased an ammonia remover insert that goes into the filter canister. It is made by AC. I got a large one rated for 100g tank and have it in the filter closest to where the fish like to hang out. (carol, i used this for 1 day only a week or so ago and removed them when I transferred the fish). The second thing I did different was to use a new bottle on AquaNova to remove chlorine, thinking perhaps since I had a gallon jug it had somewhat diluted or went stale. I tested the ammonia again now, about 4 hours later and it is zero, will test in another 3-4 hours or so. Even if it is zero I will do my 90% tonight.

Carol:
I had not fed these fish in at least 3 days. Once in a while I will put in a few color bits that I remove almost immediately, because they do not seem to want to eat.

I have not used Ammo Lock in at least 4 days and would think that is all out of the tank by now, with all the water changes I have done.

ALLLLLLLLLL:

I am so sorry to keep bringing this topic to the top. I lost everyone of my good fish except thank god my favorite and I am really in fear I will lose it. How long can a fish go with swollen gills and lack of food. I am almost tempted to take this one out and put it by itself in a hospital tank, but something tells me it would be a mistake. Not a single fish that ever went into the hospital tank has come back...

[Ax]

From what I see it will only add stress to already week fish.

Because it looks like things improving I wouldn’t risk the move. If you have an established small tank that would fit only one fish, than sure, but to have two tanks to worry, test and move fish back and forth…. Sorry, you have plenty to worry about now.

:undecided

[tlum]

How likely that you may have chloramine instead of just chlorine in your water? If you have chloramine in your water, the chemical you used to treat tap water breaks the chlorine and ammonia bond and release the ammonia to your water.

I have a mixed feeling about the frequent and big water changes that you had. I don't know whether it is a good idea to change the water environment that much when your fish is weak. Water change improves your water quality, but, at the same time, add stress to your sick / weaken fish. I do think a stable environment is very important for a fish to recover.

I also don't know whether we should worry the low level of Ammonia that much. My parents had a fish farm in Hong Kong when I was young. We did not use any filters at all and we did daily water change for about 25%. The tanks were very heavy in bioload and our fish (angle and discus) were fine and grew rapidly.

I have several tanks of discus, including 8 juvs in a 20g long tank. When I first got the juvs, my tank was not cycled. I checked the Ammonia level every day and the level was usually at about 0.25ppm level. I did water change for about 25% daily and feeded my fish heavily. They grew about an inch since I got them about a month ago. When the ammonia level was high (over 0.5ppm), I did add some white stuff (I forgot the name, It look like small white rock - I do not have it with me now as I am in a hotel room a thousand miles away from home:) from Marineland to remove it. It worked quite well to lower the Ammonia level back to about 0.25ppm.

Your real enemy may not be Ammonia.

Terry

[iceskater]

Hi terry
That is a interesting post. I suspect the water changes were not the best idea either, yet I can not deny the fact that they are acting better when I change the water. Along with the other things I let go, I did not test the water prior to them getting sick do I do not know if ammonia reading was .25.

Still they have open gills and signs of illness, so something has to work. The media bag in my tank now has some type of white rock like things in it. It did release some powder substance in the tank.

They are all alive again this morning, thanks to god. Hopefully today, they will want to eat a little bit.

I have decided to test Terry's theory. Water from tap has no ammonia I had prevously tested that. I now have a bucket of water with water conditioner in it, will test that water in a few hours. Will post results

[Barb Newell]

Hi Karen, sorry about this nightmare that you're going through.

I agree with Joe (Moon), you may have cleaned the sponges so well that there is very little nitrifying bacteria left.

How many fish are left in the tank? Test your water to see if you have any nitrites or nitrates, what are the readings? Do you have any salt in the tank? Last question(s), you have 3 aquaclears running, any hydrosponges? Do you have prefilters on your aquaclears? and are you sure that there's no food, etc stuck in the aquaclears under the sponges? Don't rinse the sponges, just check for food.

Barb

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi All:
The world would be so much safer if we really could rinse all the bacteria out of our sponges. When you rinse and reuse a washrag and leave it on the counter it gets stinky with bacteria. After a couple of days no matter how much you rinse it the smell remains. In order for the washrag to smell fresh again you need to use soap and run it through the washer and dryer. High heat, dryness and chlorine kill the bacteria.

When you rinse your sponges the brown liquid is mostly mulm and dead bacteria. You can not rinse out all the nitrifying bacteria. You can kill it with chlorine if you are rinsing under the kitchen faucet.

No one can kill or rinse out all the nitryfying bacteria in a bucket of used tank water. The millions of bacteria left in the sponge after rinsing in used tank water will quickly repopulate the media.

[iceskater]

Results of terry's test. No ammonia in water treated with conditioner and no fish. Going to check food in filter now Barb

I am almost relieved terry's test failed I would not know how to fix it..

One more question: I have heat at 87% should i raise or lower it. Not sure which is best with gill problems

[iceskater]

I did not answer all of Barb's questions so I will now

8 fish in a 60g tank
Prefilters= Yes
Food in filter or under prefilter= Checked all, if there was I could not see it, emptied the water in cansiter anyway. Did not rinse sponges

Current Readings:
Ammonia .25
Nitrite zero
Nitrate zero

Carefully, looked at all fish today. Salt is healing fins, red spots are gone from the red-white. Side opening of gills does not show red anymore and seem to be more closed. 2 fish have puffiness in the gills that you can see from front view. If anyone has seen a parrot fish that is what they look like from the front. Most are no longer skitish. One is having a real hard time and it is one that has the puffy gills. When I am not looking they swim fairly normal, when I am present, they like to sway back and forth. Every now and then 1 of them will all of a sudden shimmer/shudder for no reason.

None of them have an appetitite, and there has been no feces in the tank. Some must be picking a little cause I am not removing as much food as I put in. Silly me I am counting the color bits before I add them and again when I go to remove them about 30 minutes later.

I have an IM in to carol about stress zyme and whether or not I should use.

I have decided I need to let this go so to speak, I have been a nervous wreck over it and I have larger problems to deal with like getting a job so I can pay this water bill that I am scared to death to see.

[Webzilla]

Yikes, I just can't help wondering if a really good filter would solve all these problems or at least minimize the impact of everything. I'm just flabergasted as to all the problems this poor gal is having. It's almost like everything she is trying is causing more and more problems.


Webz....

[April]

i wouldnt keep the heat too high..if their having gill problems. higher heat..less oxygen.
hope it works itself out . hows your ph? staying steady? its not keep lowering is it? if it slides..it sometimes will keep sliding.
i had my ph slide way low..and my fish sounds like about what yours sound like. my ph slid major when i removed one sponge to use for another tank. once it slid..even with major water changes it kept sliding back down. got down to 3.5 at one point..trouble with that..was everytime i did a wc it would go way up..they werent happy with their wcs..then of course start sliding again..down low..then wc..back up..took them awhile to get back to normal. over a month id say...now i have oyster shells and i have a homemade filter that is a long flat rubbermaid with porous sponges . i have a powerhead that goes up to it..then it drains back down into the tank at the other end. fits the whole top of the aquarium. fish are back to normal. of course..your water may be far different from mine..mine has no hardness . kh or gh. but..if my filters cant keep up..my tanks will crash very quickly.
my fish had their fins affected..and eyes..etc. they quit eating..and i lost a few. now..its over a month or more..and their eating and look good again. if your ph goes up too rapidly..it can harm their gills. fry them.
this may not be what went on with yours..but maybe it will help.
i guess you have no other tanks you can borrow sponges from?

[Gold Nugget]

I do not have time to read all of this, but I hope your fish are better. First thing I would have done: after your bio crashed, it was trying to recycle and began producing ammonia. You should "bring the PH below 7". It's very very very important to get that PH down below 7, not border-line, below 7. You will never remove all of the ammonia via water change(s) when the tank is cycling. You don't want to remove the ammonia...it will take longer for the tank to cycle. You only want to convert it to the non-toxic form ammonium.

Then when the nitrites start to cycle heavily and the ammonia starts to decline it would be OK to allow the PH to get near 7, but still below the thresh hold. Salt will also help reduce nitrite poisoning, but will do nothing to slow the deadly ammonia. The reason shippers ship in low PH: ammonia will kill your fish.

I went through a cycle with the ammonia off the charts 8+ for 2 weeks, you read that # right. I lost no fish! Why you may ask; because the PH was kept below 7 (6.4-6.6 to be exact). Therefore the ammonia was in it's non-toxic form of ammonium. I am sure there is a explanation somewhere on Simply and or the web, which will further enhance your knowledge of the bio-cycle.

Which is better, a stable PH above 7 with ammonia or a semi-unstable PH below 7 (with high levels of ammonia)? I would take the lower PH any day of the year. You can use household distilled vinegar (I use it constantly) to bring your PH down and stabilize your PH with peat. Bring the PH down slow as possible.

Good night.

[Carol_Roberts]

This may be good advice if you have fairly soft water to begin with and can control the pH of your water.

Many people with hard water can not lower their pH to below 7 unless they use 80% RO water and ACID.

My GH 12, pH 7.8 water only lowers to pH 7.6 with 80% RO / 20% tap. When I add acid the pH swings all over the place. I have a very had time trying to stablize the pH with acid and don't mess with it any more.

I see no reason to mess with mixing RO water and acid and then testing several times while waiting for it to stabilize when I can do 90% Water changes with aged water a couple of times a day. Two 90% water changes should keep the ammonia close to zero unless you are overfeeding, or have something rotting in the tank.

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
On the biofilters.. Theres alot of factors that affect a biofilter's efficiency. You can get away with rinsing them from time to time...I alternate cleaning mine every week or so one is always in a tank well cycled. Things to consider here though., imo..

1) You can harm your biofilter greatly by rinsing too much under certain conditions. The brown water you are rinsing is much of your biofilter. The bacteria that breaks downs waste covers all surface areas...Including that mulm in the filter. Dead Bacteria usually does not Stay long..its a dog eat dog world in the microcosm. In a tank like Karens where the filter was poorly maintained and loaded with Mulm...That ,mulm would prevent a filters Real surface area from being colonized, instead the bacteria would colonize the mulm in it..and by rinsing this out, you would remove a large part of your biofilter.

2) if a filter is well maintained and not allowed to get clogged with mulm then the water carrying necessary oyxgen and food to all the filter surfaces will allow for a healthy population of bacteria to thrive, In this case Carols points on "not being able to really harm the biofilter would be pretty accurate, an dis generally the way I look at it as well.

3) Your Filters ability to re-populate is a function of food (ammonia and Nitrite), (air flow) oxygen, surface area thats availible.. and to a large degree , your waters hardness and mineral composition. Its been shown that tanks cycle faster in harder water. Its also true that ammonia is less toxic in acidic waters..The caveat is nitrites are not.


In a tank where the biofilter is impaired... water changes are your best choice, lots of them.. It will slow your cycling down by not having ammonia present but the fish will not be harmed by poisons.


Karen,
I am sorry you are going thru all this and realize that you must be very sad , frustrated and bitter here. Take a step back. WE tend to try too many things when we are faced with things like these. Keep it simple. Clean water is paramount here.

If you want a cycled sponge let me know and I will send you one.

Also reading your first posts in this thread, I think you are being too hard on yourself. You can do everything right and still have problems, fish can still die, and things go wrong....You can also make mistakes and learn from them...we all have.....its all part of the learning curve in this hobby.

If I can help in any way, please let me know,
al

[iceskater]

Hi All,
Well since posting this I have done 2 different things
1. Put in Bio Spira, turned out lights and did not feed for 2 days and did not water change for 1. Still had high ammonia level

2. Did a water change and put in water from the LFS with bacteria in it from one of there fish tanks.

So far of everything #2 seems to be working the best, it has been 2 days, I do have some ammonia but not nearly as much as I had with just the water changes. The fish are eating and seem ok. Ammonia level is and remains between .0-.25. Somewhere in the middle. Water changes alone it would rise to a high of .50

I know I took a big risk using LFS bacteria on my discus, but at this point, I had a choice, THEY ARE GOING TO DIE it was very obvious to me. So now it is a matter of will it be the ammonia or a disease from the LFS tank bacteria.

Carol, I know you really really disapprove of this and I am sure others will as well, but nothing else worked. I could no longer stare at these fish in pain from ammonia and wonder when each of them would be floating or sunk.

I wish I could just order some new discus and let them heal this pain but I am not working now, so I need to just pray that these fish are tough and hang in there.

I have gotton so much support from all of you on this and I really really appreciate it from the bottom of my heart.

I hope this post helps just one person save a fish

[Howie_W]

Hi Karen,

I'm sorry to hear about what you are going through. After reading through this thread, I believe that Al has correctly identified the problem; you're fish are suffering from lack of viable healthy nitrifying bacteria. One of the worse things you can do is over clean your filters.

Introducing water from you local fish store was a big mistake, as it opens the potential for introducing many foreign pathogens into your tank.

If you haven't already done so, I would get a pair of hydro sponges running in your tank asap, with medium airflow going. I would not hold back on feeding, but rather feed lightly, with the goal of gradually building up new bacteria colonies.

You don't need to go out and get new fish, you need to take care of the ones you have.


HTH



Howie

[iceskater]

Howie,
I took the risk, they were going to die anyway and from the looks of things all but 2 do not have much longer to go. I do not regret putting in the LFS bacteria as of now anyway.

My plans for other fish are intended for an empty tank. I plan on getting generic tropical fish that can be replaced by another one that looks just like it so when you lose one, you do not feel the pain as much. I am cycling the filter sponges for that purpose now.

I agree I over cleaned my filters but it was lack of cleaning them in the first place that got me in this mess. And like i orginally stated, I will never ever medicate again.

[April]

I think Brews idea of getting a cycled sponge is a good idea. take him up on his offer. im sure he could send one in a bag of oxygen and it would get your tank going again.

[iceskater]

Hi All,
I am sure Brew's idea would have worked had I done so sooner. I have already put LFS bacteria in my tank the process is now at the end stages, I have no ammonia and do have nitrites so I am nearing the end from what I can tell. Not sure what adding a sponge now will do? I am willing to take him up on his offer if it will do something more than the bacteria that was just recently put in the tank.

Now all thats left is time to see if I have introduced any diease into the tank. I have my fingers crossed I do not. I have to trust the LFS owner who seems to keep a very clean store. The fish in all his tanks always look healthy and he knew what I had to risk. He refused to sell me a discus he just got in cause he did not trust they were healthy so I want to believe he is very ethical. All I can do now is wait. Inpatience caused alot of my problems at the start of this.

I put a deposit on my new tropical fish and will be using media from the tank they are currently in.

Once again thanks to everyone for there help.

[April]

yes i agree. if your water is working..then id continue on as is. sounds like you have a good lfs . im sure all will be fine. hopefully all the problems are in the past.

[Tony_S]

Just finished reading this whole thread....I have to say...Things seem to have been made ALOT more complicated than they needed to be.

My ever so humble two cents (too little too late)

Problem #1 you damaged the bio-capacity of your filtration.
Typically not a big deal....In the past I have actually fully cycled filters with discus in the tank with a ph of 7.8-8. No problems. They tend to get a BIT skittish...but not much more as long as you keep up with the LARGE water changes. As has been stated...there are breeders who dont use ANY filtration at all, and keep VERY high stocking ratio's and do so without any problems.

With that and the description of the fish's gills...Id have to guess that the discus may have had a bacterial gill infection (slight) BEFORE the filters crashed. Then...the stress of the ammonia problem made the infection worse.

Youve sworn off meds...so there's little you could have done other than what you did...large waterchanges.
Also...It seems there was quite a bit of panic on your own part...and that caused you to try anything and everything that was suggested, most of which was crapolla, as you discovered.

You were given good...simple... solid advice by Carol and Al (as usual)

Tony

Ps...it never ceases to amaze me how many people(and how many times) suggest messing with Ph. IMO its one of the biggest mistakes you can make when the fish are already stressed out. Water chemistry can be VERY complicated and most peoples tap water DOES NOT RESPOND WELL to adjustments, particularly with the limited knowledge MOST people have when it comes to water chemistry.
Consistancy, simplicity and patience is the answer to 95% of the "discus problems" that occur...

[iceskater]

HI All,
Though I would update everyone on what is currently going on. I have had zero ammonia now for 3 solid days. The nitrites were .25 2 days ago but are zero along with nitrates yesterday as well as today.

I have noticed 100% turnaround in the discus behavior on all but one fish.

Today I set up the second tank and will put my new fish in tomorrow, I am going to get some congo tetras along with many other fish from the tetra family. Oh I did get this small shark with black body and red fins. It is currently in the tank with the fish I have purchased so I know they are getting along. Should be fun to fill that 55g with lots of little fish and decorations. One thing I did not add to the tank was gravel. I would never ever use gravel again since going bb.

I have learned alot from this ordeal, and believe me I will use alot of precaution and care going from one tank to the other. I have already separated the equipment and have both tanks and supplies in separate rooms.

One again thanks to everyone who helped me with my problems.