Albinos Crosses and Goldens

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,
I thought I share this pics. I just got these guys from Cary Strong. 5 Albinos X Goldens and 6 Goldens.
Cary was generous as always. He added an additional Golden and 6 Angelfish.

dan

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Another with the Goldens

dan

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I love these albino crosses. I wish I got more instead of the Goldens.:)
As always great packing and discus are all have great shape and healthy.

Dan

[Cosmo]

Hey Dan,

Beauiful fish.. as always from Cary...but am curious about something??

Aren't you the guy that was cutting down on stock just a few days ago or so due to time constraints ??? Easier said than done I guess :D

Jim

[Terrybo]

Dan -

Those albino crosses are awesome. What size are they?

Terry

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Cosmo,
Yeah, I know. Now I have to get rid of more to compensate for the addtion.

Hi Terry,
They're 3" + or -.
If only I had more money.:( lol

dan

[Ardan]

Beautiful!
Thanks for sharing the pics. :)

[JimmyL]

Beautiful and very high quality yellow. What's an Albino crosses and Golden? One fish or two fish? I see a completely solid yellow fish which is rare to find. Are they the goldens? I prefer the golden rather than any other crosses. They are super. What's the color of their eyes of the albino cross? Thanks for sharing.
Jimmy

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Jimmy,
The solid yellows are the Albino x Golden

I also recieved pure Goldens that's the butterscotch browns you see.

I should've gotten all albinos. They're awesome color. The eyes are black but if bred together will produce Albinos with red eyes.


I just want to thank Cary. He's a good friend.

dan

[Larry Grenier]

Awsome fish Dan. Kudos to Cary!

Dumb question,
Do these have any PB in their line?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Dumb question,
Do these have any PB in their line?
The only dumb question is the one not asked.

None Larry.

dan

[FischAutoTechGarten]

They really are nice fish. Both the Goldens and The Crosses. I like the fact that Cary's fish don't have those pronounced beaks for mouths. Really nice shape with good proportions!

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I totally agree Peter. Cary and few other importer/breeder are the only people I deal with. Been burned too many times. Some importers promises the best and you get nothing but crap.

Dan

[dalelad]

i'm wondering of the origin of the parent albino, or the parent golden.

technically, if an albino is of brown origin, out-crossing it to any fish would throw quite a percentage of brown fishes, with stress bars.

crossing an albino with a golden would give ALL browns with no yellow fish.

let me explain..

the golden is a mutant of the brown, and out-crossing the pure golden to a non-golden would ALWAYS give us intermediates.. which have a base-colour similar to a brown fish.

crossing an albino with a brown, 50% of the fishes would look like the parent albino without the albinism defect and hence looking like a normal brown fish.

and the other 50% of the offspring would look like the parent golden, which would give browns if the albino isn't a golden, and therefore looking like brown fish.

hence, ALL off-spring should look brown. i'm suspecting pigeon genes in these fish.. otherwise, where could the yellow pigmentation have come from? do these fishes have a black outer rim at the edge of the anal fins? from the photos, it looks like they have the black outer rim.. which is a common physical trait of pigeons.

i have done an albino crossing with a golden, and off-springs are all brown.
a friend of mine have done a crossing of an albino with a pigeon, and we got results similar to those in the photo..

just to share my muses and findings.. cheers!

[JasonBR]

Very nice Dan,

They look real healthy...Keep us updated with photos, I would love to see how they turn out...Cary is the man!

Jason

[Stephish]

I'm not sure that I understand the frequent concern about pigeon genes. Even if one doesn't like them, does it matter when such lovely fish are the end product?

Just a newbie wondering...

[GulfCoastDiscus]

i'm wondering of the origin of the parent albino, or the parent golden.

technically, if an albino is of brown origin, out-crossing it to any fish would throw quite a percentage of brown fishes, with stress bars.

crossing an albino with a golden would give ALL browns with no yellow fish.

let me explain..

the golden is a mutant of the brown, and out-crossing the pure golden to a non-golden would ALWAYS give us intermediates.. which have a base-colour similar to a brown fish.

crossing an albino with a brown, 50% of the fishes would look like the parent albino without the albinism defect and hence looking like a normal brown fish.

and the other 50% of the offspring would look like the parent golden, which would give browns if the albino isn't a golden, and therefore looking like brown fish.

hence, ALL off-spring should look brown. i'm suspecting pigeon genes in these fish.. otherwise, where could the yellow pigmentation have come from? do these fishes have a black outer rim at the edge of the anal fins? from the photos, it looks like they have the black outer rim.. which is a common physical trait of pigeons.

i have done an albino crossing with a golden, and off-springs are all brown.
a friend of mine have done a crossing of an albino with a pigeon, and we got results similar to those in the photo..

just to share my muses and findings.. cheers!
I'm not familiar with the history of this strain. You have a legitimate question though. Call cary and ask him. He could probably enlightened you. Upon closer inspection I don't see the black rim on the juvies or any hint of peppering.

dan

[Rod]

I agree with Daledad, when i looked at the pics i was thinking the brown ones were the golden x albino.

Very nice discus however, wish i had them:)

[mattrox]

Albino is a recessive trait. There for albino crosses only throw the colour patterns of the pigmented parent. Albino x Albino would produce only Albino and Albino X Golden should produce only golden F1.... the F2 generation would then produce Golden and Albino offspring.

If anything else occurs, then the original was not a true Albino.
Genetics determines this and there should be no brown offspring.

[mattrox]

.......... Of course the is always co-dominance and such which confuse the issue.... I don't know of any studies which show all the relationships with every colour in Discus genes. However, I do understand it is very complex.

If ... only if......... Goldens have "Brown yellow" as a gene pair to produce golden fish and if the Albino x gets the yellow gene than it will be yellow..... Purely hypotheical and I don't know if this is the real case, just showing the complexities. It may even be more than one gene pair to determine colour, then there is not hope of 100% accurate predictions unless all the genes are understood.

[bigfish]

Very nice Dan, Cary seems to produce first class stock have seen a few of
his Discus on this forum..............Lovely.
Ben.

[Discus_KC]

Dan,

Enjoy them !!!!!!

Jack

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Thank you Jack. They'll be an addition to my future breeding program.

Cary tells me that they are Albinos x Golden with no pigeon blood in them and I believe him. Cary has no reason to lie or make up crap to sell his fish. I just wished I got more.:)


dan

[zoids]

Nice fishes dan.

Keep them well.

Roy

[ping]

Nice fish :)

Ronny

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Roy,
Thank you I will do my best.

Can you provide some background on this strain. I'd like to see pics of the parents. You can email them to me. Many thanks bro.

Dan


Hi Ronny, Thank you

[Ardan]

Hi,
I had some golden yellows and golden melons from Cary. He told me they were wild brown based if I remember correctly (I think I do :D ).

Absolutely beautiful fish. Clean, brilliant,...

hth
Ardan

[dalelad]

.......... Of course the is always co-dominance and such which confuse the issue.... I don't know of any studies which show all the relationships with every colour in Discus genes. However, I do understand it is very complex.

If ... only if......... Goldens have "Brown yellow" as a gene pair to produce golden fish and if the Albino x gets the yellow gene than it will be yellow..... Purely hypotheical and I don't know if this is the real case, just showing the complexities. It may even be more than one gene pair to determine colour, then there is not hope of 100% accurate predictions unless all the genes are understood.

actually, i understand that most albinos in the market now have been derived from the brown fish. and taken that if the albino is a brown fish, then out-crossing an albino would give you a brown. albinism doesn't work similarly on pigmentation level as the other genes. taking away of albinism by out-crossing an albino would give you the fish without the albino traits of the 'lack of melanin (black pigmentation), which is afterall the definition of albinism. even a pigeon can be an albino, just that we cannot tell them apart.

have wrote some stuff on this issue some weeks back. http://www.aquarealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16684

hope i get the idea across.. and maybe this would be a very very constructive thread!

p/s: i'm not doubting cary's credibility of course.. but more of just thinking along the lines of albino crossing.

cheers!

[GulfCoastDiscus]

actually, i understand that most albinos in the market now have been derived from the brown fish. and taken that if the albino is a brown fish, then out-crossing an albino would give you a brown. albinism doesn't work similarly on pigmentation level as the other genes. taking away of albinism by out-crossing an albino would give you the fish without the albino traits of the 'lack of melanin (black pigmentation), which is afterall the definition of albinism. even a pigeon can be an albino, just that we cannot tell them apart.

have wrote some stuff on this issue some weeks back. http://www.aquarealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16684

hope i get the idea across.. and maybe this would be a very very constructive thread!

p/s: i'm not doubting cary's credibility of course.. but more of just thinking along the lines of albino crossing.

cheers!Hi Daledad,
From what I've read, you did some extensive research on this topic and I commend you for it. I'm here to learn. From what I've digested from your discussion in Aquarealms is that there's no sure way to find out until I breed them and even then it's not 100% sure because albinism can masked the results. Is this right?

Nevertheless I love what I've gotten. I hope I can use this strain to outcross to thus furthering the complications in determining the strain.:)

Here's a current pic. They are more settled and eating.

Thanks Daledad.

dan

[DISCUS USA]

SAy Dan what strain are those in that tank that have stress bar over eye/forehead and did you get those from Cary recently..thanks..

[dalelad]

Hi Daledad,
From what I've read, you did some extensive research on this topic and I commend you for it. I'm here to learn. From what I've digested from your discussion in Aquarealms is that there's no sure way to find out until I breed them and even then it's not 100% sure because albinism can masked the results. Is this right?

Nevertheless I love what I've gotten. I hope I can use this strain to outcross to thus furthering the complications in determining the strain.:)

Here's a current pic. They are more settled and eating.

Thanks Daledad.

dan

its alright dan, we're all here to share and learn. have learnt a great deal from you guys here at simply too..

crossing an albino with a brown, and taken that the albino is of brown origin, i would get all browns, having the off-spring following the phenotype of both parents - both being browns.

out-crossing an albino to a non-albino-gene fish would not give us phenotypical albinos in the first crossing, but almost half of these fishes would carry an albino allele.

taken that in a crossing:
1) the albino is of brown origin (and not pigeon-blood), and
2) the golden is of pure golden origin (and not pigeon-blood),
3) and going by the logic that a pure golden is a derivative mutant from the brown, and out-crossing a pure golden would give us intermediate goldens, of which have to be back-crossed to a golden almost up to 3 generations at least to give us pure goldens again,

i suppose crossing a golden to a brown would give us all browns, going by the above scenario.

but in any case, (if a parent is of pigeon lineage) the pigeon gene might also be over-written by the brown gene, and therefore we would have off-spring of the brown phenotype, together with some which would follow the pigeon phenotype (of a golden coloration) note: we'd never be able to get goldens from crossing a golden to an albino if the albino is actually a brown fish as intermediates would be derived -> brown phenotype.

dan, i suggest you breed them to non-pigeons and watch for any pigeon offspring. might not be many, and as little as 1-2 fishes sometimes. because crossing them to an albino would just produce albinos.. and albinism masks all traits of the pigeon! =)

nevertheless, they are nice fish, dan! keep 'em well! =)

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I just talked to Cary and I stand corrected.

The browns are the Albino Xs and the yellow ones are the pure Goldens. The Goldens might have PB in them way back.

Daledad, Thank you for your expertise. I learned lots from reading your post in Aquarealm.

With Roys permission I would like to post the pics of the parents.

dan

[Rod]

out-crossing an albino to a non-albino-gene fish would not give us phenotypical albinos in the first crossing, but almost half of these fishes would carry an albino allele. =)

Dalelad,

Reading your excellent post i have a question for you, wouldn't all the f1 albino x non albino have the albino allele?? The way i understand it is the f1 genotype will include the albino gene on all the fry because of the albino parents phenotype. When the f1 produce fry then about 1/4 of the progeny will be albino phenotype like the albino grandparent, 1/2 will have the albino genotype like the parents and 1/4 will no longer carry the albino gene. Can you show me where i am going wrong here?? I love this stuff :)

Rod

[Prometheus]

Gorgeous fish!

[GulfCoastDiscus]

These fish are bred by Roy (Zoids). With Roys permission, here's a pics of the parents of the Albino cross Golden.

Dan

Below is the albino female

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Here's the Golden male

[zoids]

Here's a picture on some albino fry from one of my pairs.

Roy

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Drool:)

dan

[dalelad]

Daledad,

Reading your excellent post i have a question for you, wouldn't all the f1 albino x non albino have the albino allele?? The way i understand it is the f1 genotype will include the albino gene on all the fry because of the albino parents phenotype. When the f1 produce fry then about 1/4 of the progeny will be albino phenotype like the albino grandparent, 1/2 will have the albino genotype like the parents and 1/4 will no longer carry the albino gene. Can you show me where i am going wrong here?? I love this stuff :)

Rod

heya Rod! =)

initially, i had thought that every of the off-spring in the F1 of out-crossing the albino would possess the albino allele. i've tried back-crossing an F1 to an albino, but got no albinos. then later, back-crossed another of the F1's siblings, and got albinos, albeit a small percentage of about 30-40%.

the F1 back-cross which would produce 1/4 albino phenotypes would have to be a back-cross to an albino. totally agree with you. but it works the same into F1 like you shared about F1 going on to F2. at F2, you mentioned that 1/4 would no longer carry the albino gene, but i've read somewhere on monkey research that there's only 1/2 probability that the F1 carry the albino allele too.. so hence we cannot be too sure that all of the F1 would carry albino alleles suitable to create albinos for back-crossing..

zoids.. *DROOL!* very gorgeous albinos. didn't know the fishes were from your facility.. sorry no offence. but really, they're aesthetically attractive fish going by the overall deportment.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Daledad,
I'm sorry but I'm abit confused. If I bred 2 of the siblings F1, will it produce a percentage of Albinos? Percentage?

Thanks
dan

[dalelad]

heya dan,

my guess is that you'd get either 25% albinos or none at all, but that would have to be crossing your 2 browns together. how about the goldens, do they carry the albino gene? can try crossing them to the browns, and if they throw albino off-spring, then the 'goldens' should carry albino genes.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

heya dan,

my guess is that you'd get either 25% albinos or none at all, but that would have to be crossing your 2 browns together. how about the goldens, do they carry the albino gene? can try crossing them to the browns, and if they throw albino off-spring, then the 'goldens' should carry albino genes.
The Goldens are from Roy too.:) He calls them Golden Melons. They do have Pigeon in them with no albino gene. They been backcross to goldens for 2 generations. Solid yellow with no straitions.

dan

[Wahter]

Nice looking fish Dan! Clean and good shape. :D :D :D

Hmmm....wonder what other crosses has Roy been working on? :D :D :D

[stilllearnin]

Just gotta say WOW
Some of the coolest discus I have ever seen are in this thread!




"If I bred 2 of the siblings F1, will it produce a percentage of Albinos? Percentage?"

Het (F1 from albino cross) X het = 50% albino offspring 25% normal looking albino gener carriers and 25% normals (assuming the albino is a "TRUE" albino)

[Rod]

Thanks Dalelad,

From your experiences it appears that the albino trait is not controlled by one gene in a simple manner. Thanks again.

Roy,

Love those discus mate, well done :)

Rod