cleaning sponge filter

[Eddie]

There is quite a bit of crud and food on my sponge filter and pre-filter. How often should I clean these suckers. my water is a bit cloudy as well. :(

[aziyaeian]

And I should add another question to above.
How can we clean the filter to save its bacteria?

[Ardan]

Hi,
Clean the sponge filter in used aquarium water. (put some aquarium water in a bucket and squeeze the sponge a few times in this water)

Don't keep squeezing until every bit of dirt is gone, many bacteria live in that dirt. :)

If you have 2 sponges in the filter, try doing one sponge a week. If the sponges stay real dirty with this method, you should use a prefilter sponge. (a sponge on the intake for the filter, if hang on back filter)
Prefilter sponges can be cleaned "daily" to help keep the filter cleaner. :)
If water is cloudy, check for ammonia and nitrite, it could be a bacteria bloom.

Usually increase wc's 30 to 50% day. Make sure stable ph in wc water and no chlorine

hth
Ardan

[Eddie]

yeah I think I have a bacteria bloom. My nitrites are at zero but my ammonia levels are through the roof. Doing 50% water changes twice a day gonna be sufficient you think? :(

[sjumper]

I clean prefilters daily. I find the water flow to the filters can be reduced significantly if the prefilters are not cleaned on a daily basis.

[aggie_67]

Back to your orginal question. I assume you are talking about a prefilter on a HOB or canister filter? I clean these every night during the WC. I use tap water as I have deligated them to mechanical filteration, no bio. In addition I have hydro sponge filters in the tank, I syphion off the external crud every evening during the WC, then clean once a week in aged water. Should alternate cleaning; HOB, sponge, etc so at least one is a full bio capacity at any time.

[Ardan]

yeah I think I have a bacteria bloom. My nitrites are at zero but my ammonia levels are through the roof. Doing 50% water changes twice a day gonna be sufficient you think?
You will have to test the water frequently to see if that wc regimen will work, try to keep ammonia close to 0

hth
Ardan

[Eddie]

thanks all. whew! water is clear again but still got some ammonia. doing water changes frequently. I left the pre-filter with out cleaning for about a week and a half. it murdered the water quality. the info on the sponge filter was helpful. weekly rinsing with tank water sounds good. I just need to crack this ammonia prob. :o

[Rhinoboy38]

ok after the ammonia spike theres gonna be a nitrite spike. after every water change add one tablespoon non iodine salt per 10 gallons. this isnt dangerous to the fish for as Al (brewmaster) told me the same thing when i had an ammonia spike and he told me that the fish can survive one teaspoon per one gallon.........but just go for one teaspoon per 10 gallons

[Eddie]

what is non-iodine salt? Table salt or sea salt

[T_om]

Hi,
Clean the sponge filter in used aquarium water. (put some aquarium water in a bucket and squeeze the sponge a few times in this water)

Don't keep squeezing until every bit of dirt is gone, many bacteria live in that dirt. :)



I am going to differ with Ardan here.

You can squeeze those filters until kingdom come, and unless you actually sterilize them with antibiotics, heat or bleach, you can never squeeze out all the bacteria.

Leaving dirt in the filter is just that... leaving dirt. If dirt is such a great thing, why clean them at all?

Neither do you have to alternate cleaning one filter and then the other. Clean them both at the same time if you like... no difference. Having to leave a dirty filter in to 'seed' the one that has been cleaned is an old fishkeepers tale... the bacteria involved live on ALL aquarium surfaces and the population is controlled by the amount of waste the bacteria have to feed upon, not the cleaning cycle of your filters.

You do not have to use tank water to rinse them either. Fill a bucket with tap water and squeeze away. As long as your city tap water uses chlorine instead of chlorimine, you don't even have to declor the water.

Someone mentioned a prefilter that needed cleaning once a day... wow, it must be nice having that much time to devote to every single filter, but simpler is better for me.

I've been keeping and breeding discus for 30+years and I am a firm believer in keeping things simple and as work-free as possible. Filters that are easy to keep clean will be kept clean, make things too difficult and they will be ignored.

Of course, YMMV. ;)

Tom

[aziyaeian]

Guys any idea how to start the biological cycle without any delays?

[Ardan]

I will point out that Karen (Iceskater) can attest to. She cleaned her filters "too" well and now has ammonia levels very high and fish stressed.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=40062

It depends on how dirty the filters were to begin with. (read Brewmaster15 comments in that thread also) good info
hth
Ardan

[Carol_Roberts]

I clean my prefilters under running tap water everytime I change water in the tank. Prefilters are there to trap debris (mechanical filtration) not to convert ammonia (biological filtration).

I rinse the internal sponges used for biological filtration about once a month. I recommend dechlorinated water. I also recommend rinsing them until the water runs clear. This may take more than one bucket of water if your prefilter lets too much get by. If you keep your sponges clear of debris the bacterial will grow on the sponges not on a covering of mulm.

[T_om]

I will point out that Karen (Iceskater) can attest to. She cleaned her filters "too" well and now has ammonia levels very high and fish stressed.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=40062

It depends on how dirty the filters were to begin with. (read Brewmaster15 comments in that thread also) good info
hth
Ardan



Sorry Ardan, I disagree... that poor lady has WAY more problems than just squeezing her filters too much.

Dirty filters are just that... dirty. They are inefficient and in no way necessary (or even desirable) in maintaining either a healthy tank or healthy bacteria colony.

Tom

[Eddie]

here is another question concerning the sponge filter. after about two days my sponge filter turns all white. When I squeeze the sponge in a bucket, the water turns totally and completely white. What is that, and is it bad? :o

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't know - is this a bare bottom tank? Do you add any thing to change the water?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I clean my sponge filters every 3 to 4 days till they run clear or almost. I also change more than 50% everyday due to heavy feedings.

Sorry Ardan, I agree with Tom. The bacteria is in the media and The bacteria lives on the waste in the water column. That's why we do so much water change:) to reduce the bioload in the tank.

Hey Basshead, Do you feed beefheart? I get white stuff on the sponge filter from beefheart. Whatever it is, you need to clean it so it does not clog the sponge.


Dan

[Eddie]

29 gallon- bare bottom tank
5- 1.5" discus
filtration- penguin 170, azoo oxygen 7 sponge filter
water perameters-
ph-7.4/7.6
ammonia-high (4 ppm)
nitrite- 0
nitrate- 0
temperature- 82
WC- 50% daily

I do water changes with aged water 24 hours treated with ammo-lock for chloramines. Should I up the WC's.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

29 gallon- bare bottom tank
5- 1.5" discus
filtration- penguin 170, azoo oxygen 7 sponge filter
water perameters-
ph-7.4/7.6
ammonia-high (4 ppm)
nitrite- 0
nitrate- 0
temperature- 82
WC- 50% daily

I do water changes with aged water 24 hours treated with ammo-lock for chloramines. Should I up the WC's.
Your temperature is too low. I would bring it up to 86F slowly. You shouldn't have any ammonia.:shocked: If your filter is not seeded, I would use ammo lock.

dan

[Eddie]

I've been waiting for my extra heater to arrive in the mail. I've got 2 of them but ones a marineland heater that came with the tank. It's not very good. It only heats up to about 82. The other is a RENA 150 and I'm trying not to put a big load on it but I might have to until the second RENA arrives. There is ammonia and my filter is not seeded so I must use ammo-lock for now. Does this sound okay. More water changes? The fish are happy

[RyanH]

You definately want to be very diligent with the water changes... 50-75% at the absolute MINIMUM per day until your filter is cycled IMO. Your Discus are at a tender age right now. They need flawless, pristine water in order to grow properly and achieve optimum health. They also need lots of food... six times per day is ideal. Make sure you syphon out any food waste and feces after each feeding in addition to the water changes.

[Eddie]

Got it :thumbsup:

[Carol_Roberts]

I would be very careful with food if you are having an ammonia problem. Do not feed beefheart and keep waste removed. If you are using ammo lock type product you may be getting false positives for ammonia. You can buy special test kits - I think the reagent is nessler - that will measure ammonia accurately

[Eddie]

okay,
I will check on it. I don't understand! I change 50% in the morning and 50%at night with aged water yet my ammonia reading are 4 ppm. I'm thinking of doing 50% in the morning and 90 in the evening. This is getting rediculous. I want my ammonia to come down. :confused:

[bio new]

okay,
I will check on it. I don't understand! I change 50% in the morning and 50%at night with aged water yet my ammonia reading are 4 ppm. :confused:Hi,

Try check the reading b4 and after WC. Should have some difference.

When you do 50% WC, the balance of the water has ammonia (A) also. Then the next day, you change another 50%. Ammonia balance is now (A) + (B). Then you change another time. Ammonia balance is now (A) + (B) + (C). This cycle is repeated every time you make a 50% WC. You should, say once a week, do a 100% WC to really make the ammonia 0 ppm. Sorry, I am poor at math, otherwise could have shown you the math formula abt ammonia balance.

CHEERS!

[Eddie]

sounds good. I'll knock out a 100% water change today. The readings stay the same before and after the WC's

[Paulo]

I read in an article that we can clean Sponge Filter by using White Vinegar.

By mixing it with old aquarium water and white vinegar, and soak it....

the thing is, I am not sure whether it also removes Good Bacteria...

YOu know, up to this day, I am still confused with these Bacteria thingie subject.

as in for example, when you leave a empty bottle of water, and filled it up again with water, and leave it for a few days...

when you touched the inner part of the bottled water... you will feel some slimy substance.

And when you drink it up... Boy oh Boy, we get upset stomach or Loose Bowel Movement, which is created by the Bacteria inside the bottle.

So if its harmful to our body, how come this is Good for the fish???

Can anyone answer this up....

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Paulo,
There's good and bad bacteria. Unfortunately they both reside in the filter and water.

I thinking that your ammonia is coming from your water source. Have you check to see if you have chlorimines in you tap. If you have chlorimines, you need to treat the water in the storage tank before going into your aquarium.

dan

[Eddie]

yes there are chloramines, and I treat the water in my storage tank with ammo-lock. :confused:

[Eddie]

My stored water is heated and airated. I am treating the water with ammo-lock when I fill the container. The fish are super happy after a water change. They are not stressed ever, but the ammonia is running 4ppm-8ppm. Crazy!!

[GulfCoastDiscus]

yes there are chloramines, and I treat the water in my storage tank with ammo-lock. :confused:
I haven't use ammo-lock and don't quite remember if it removes Chloromines.

If ammo-lock doesn't work try "Prime".

dan

[Eddie]

Ammo lock removes chloramines but I'm thinking it's the problem. Prime is on the way. Not sure if it will get here fast enough though. Darn

[bio new]

sounds good. I'll knock out a 100% water change today. The readings stay the same before and after the WC'sSame readings!!!! Shouldnt be. When you do 50% WC, ammonia in the tank will be cut by half. Agree? :)

Then you replenish with fresh new aged water from your holding container. This water I believe has no ammonia unless ......., hmmmm, think think think. Ammonia originated from your holding container? Who knows!!!! :confused:

CHEERS!

[Eddie]

DId a 95% WC last night. Ammonia went from 8ppm to 1ppm. This morning had 2 ppm. I'll check again tonight when before I knock out another 95% WC :confused:

[bio new]

See, sure got difference! Anyway, that should be the way. IF the feeding is mainly of BH, I am pretty sure the ammonia reading will go northward. Big WC is recommended and a 100% is ideal for at least once a week. If u have the time, siphon the leftover after each feeding. Feed what is needed only.

May I suggest, in the morning u start off with tetrabits, BW and last BH b4 WC. This way, ammonia will be at bare minimal and as the day passed by, it get higher and higher and then with daily WC, it will help it to dip down considerably. It is very important that u mustn't missed any WC daily, if u do, then ammonia will skyrocket high and ur discus will be start to dash in and out of the tank if anyone comes near the tank. That is my observation.

O.K, happy WCs.

CHEERS!

[Eddie]

feeding only bits and flakes. I'll cover the WC's I'm thinking one of my guys has a an issue. DARK NOT EATING. DAMN

[Cosmo]

Ok... so many thoughts, agreements and disagreements... lets see if I can keep this straight lol

I agree with Carol on this .. I clean prefilters at every WC under running tap water until they run clear... clean Hydro sponges every week/10 days using dechlorinated water either from the tank (preferable) or RO... think I'm in partial disagreement with Tom (and maybe Dan) on this cause using chlorinated water would kill off the bacteria colonies.. yes, bacteria is in the water column and tank walls, etc, but if you kill the filter there probably isn't sufficient bacteria in these places to maintain the water until the filter re-establishes itself.. otherwise, why would we need bio filters left in established tanks?

Never had a AC so not familiar with those sponges, but would think the chemistry would be similiar.

Agree with Tom and Dan about not leaving dirt in the sponge... bacteria lives on and in the sponge and the dirt doesn't do much other than make more ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates as it breaks down... I squeeze my hyros in the water until the water looks so disgusting I figure it's counterproductive to squeeze anymore. Besides, since you have to squeeze them in the tank to get them to sink again, any residue left from the cleaning will simply disperse in the tank water :(

Now, the ammonia problem... if the bio filter isn't cycled, you'll never get ammonia to zero since it's a by product not only of left over food, but also the respiration of the fish. Doing 100% changes helps in the short run, but it also prolongs the amount of time needed for the bio filter to re-establish itself since ammonia is the first leg of the nitrogen cycle. I would think you're better off doing smaller water changes while adding Prime to detoxify the ammonia and nitrites, but, leaving them in the water as food so the bacteria colonies can grow and recycle the filter. Otherwise, you'll be doing 100% changes till your blue in the face before it gets to the point the tank will support the bioload by itself again - at which point, it'll probably be time to clean the filters and start the new tank syndrome process all over again...

phwew... got tired trying to follow all that :)

Jim

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Jim,
I never suggested cleaning the sponge in chlorinated water. I clean my sponges sometimes daily in de-chlorinated water. Once you have seeded sponge you can clean them daily. Bacteria good and bad is everywhere in that tank. FME with fry tanks it has to be very clean otherwise you'll start to lose frys due to high bio-load. Cleaning the sponge in de-chlorinated water reduces the bioload.
I think we're talking about the same thing. Just worded different and unclear on my part. Sorry for the misunderstanding.:)

dan

[Eddie]

yeah, I kinda was thinkin about that. I guess I'll probably stick with the 50% daily. maybe this method won't slow dsown the cycling process. I just don't want more sick fish. The 100% changes are defenitely loved by my fish! :)

[Anonapersona]

My stored water is heated and airated. I am treating the water with ammo-lock when I fill the container. The fish are super happy after a water change. They are not stressed ever, but the ammonia is running 4ppm-8ppm. Crazy!!


Uh, yeah, ammo-lock works too well, the ammonia is locked up, true, but the biofilter seems to not be established. Kinda like running without any filter at all, just ammo-lock.

[Cosmo]

Hey Dan :wave:

I know you never suggested using chlorinated water.. ... You had agreed with Tom, only about the complete cleaning I figured, but, Tom had mentioned no need to use dechlorinted water ..that's why I said "maybe Dan" in that sentence :) I agreed with you both on the cleaning issue...

Question for you though... in a breeder tank with fry, how do you go about cleaning the sponge then getting it soaked enough to sink again w/o disturbing the fry and parents? I have a helluva time getting the things cleared of air after cleaning them in buckets ??

I'm Setting up breeder tanks in hopes of having fry soon and how to do this has been bothering me... what's the trick ?

Thanks
Jim

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Jim,
I never clean my sponges with tap water. I have a 330gal storage tank that I use to clean the sponges and replace the water in all the tanks.

My sponges don't have trouble sinking once it's been in the tank for awhile. I rinse the sponges daily till they spawn then I feed very little to the pair and try not to disturb them.
I siphon the debris on the bottom and overflow the water when refilling.

Give me a call bro. I could better explain my procedures. Too much typing.:)

dan

[T_om]

Hey Dan :wave:

I know you never suggested using chlorinated water.. ... You had agreed with Tom, only about the complete cleaning I figured, but, Tom had mentioned no need to use dechlorinted water ..that's why I said "maybe Dan" in that sentence :) I agreed with you both on the cleaning issue...



Jim,

I use tap water with no problems. The tap water in the three geographic areas where I raised discus over the last 30 years (TN, ME & FL) never had enough residual chlorine in the water to worry with. Actually in Maine, we were on our own well so there was zero chlorine added anyway.

In my experience, municipal water supplies do not add enough chlorine (or it dissipates so quickly) to damage either fish or biological filters. If your municipality uses chlorimine, then it may be a completely different story. I have never lived where the water contained chlorimine.

Tom

[Cosmo]

Hey T om,

Makes sense ... where I live, the city doesn't add chloramine, but, local stations may or may not.. thinking from what I've observed with my DI resins degenerating the way they do, my local station does :( when I stopped using DI to save some $ I started adding Prime to play safe. Our city also has the propensity of flooding the system with chlorine after repairs to broken pipes, so... you're a lucky man not to have to deal with that :) Stopped the DI about 5 days ago, and I'll be darned if it doesn't look like my fish can tell their water's not quite as clean ... could be my imagination too though :p

Jim

[Eddie]

I rinse my sponge in a bucket with tank water. The biggest thing is the white stuff. I have to squeeze and squeeze and squeeze to get all this off. Then if I put the sponge back in the tank, it just pumps out murky white cloudy water. I'm pretty sure that isn't good. What to do? :confused:

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I rinse my sponge in a bucket with tank water. The biggest thing is the white stuff. I have to squeeze and squeeze and squeeze to get all this off. Then if I put the sponge back in the tank, it just pumps out murky white cloudy water. I'm pretty sure that isn't good. What to do? :confused:
Rinse it several times before putting it back.

dan

[Eddie]

Got it. Thanks :o

[Ardan]

Tom,
Chlorine in municipal water supplies can kill discus and filters. I know from personal experience. My city normally adds .2 ppm chlorine. In the last several months they have been adding 2.5 ppm chlorine, without notice! due to repairs on a water tower.

I aged my water for 18 to 20 hrs as usual, did a 50% wc and left for 1 hour when I came back all 19 adult Or close to adult discus were dying and died.
I am now without discus for a bit.
My advice, don't count on chlorine not killing discus or filters in municipal water supplies! I will always use a dechlor agent from now on.
This all was confirmed with the head chemist at the water dept.
Southeast Wisconsin.

[T_om]

Ardan,

I am sorry you lost those fish, but I really do not believe it was chlorine that killed them.

Read up on how quickly chlorine dissipates and at what levels it is toxic. Water that has been standing for the length of time you said your water aged would have very little chlorine content left in it. However, this is not true of chloramines!. Chloramines can stay in dissolved in water a long time and are more toxic to fish to boot. I would suspect either chloramines or some other problem in your die-off. If tap water chlorine alone killed fish like that, I would have killed many hundreds by now.

Tom

[Ardan]

Tom,
No chloramines.

Definately chlorine. No other unusual additives to the tap other than the unusually high level of chlorine. Spoke at great length with the city chemist.


1ppm available chlorine is toxic to all fish. 0.4ppm available chlorine is toxic game fish
http://cgi.www.sechelle.co.uk/data%20sheets/sodium_hyper_safety_sheet.htm

I just hate for you to tell your experiences to all when it may not be true to all and they lose their fish.


Water that has been standing for the length of time you said your water aged would have very little chlorine content left in it.
Not true! I have duplicated this with experiments with my tap water. Letting stand and testing with a chlorine test kit.

It depends on the chlorine content of the tap water. Your experiences may not have had the levels of chlorine that my tap had.

I know others that have small amounts of chlorine in their tap water that use straight tap and have no problems, so what you say may be true for you.

Ardan