Pigeon Blood Stress

[Mustang65]

Need help to understand what is going on with my Discus. since I got them, they seems just fine (they eat and navigate in the tank) but they have heavy peppering black all over their body (normal effect for stress) constantly, you can clearly see in a video I made:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=40400

could I have some help from you guys
here are some info:

Tank:
72 G fresh water tank
Fish: 6 Pigeon Blood - 3 silver dollars - 3 guppies - 6 neon tetras - 1 pleco
Filtration: eheim 2029
Temp: 82 degrees (can go higher because of Neon Tetras)

Water:
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
PH: 7.6
carbonate: 5 (high)
GH: 9 (high)
Water change: 3 times a week
Water product: Amquel

Food:
Frozen Blood Worms
Frozen Beef hearts
Flakes
Shrimp Pellets (rarelly they seems no really in to it)
3 times a day (I use to feed them once a day but previous post did recommended to increase)

I understand it's not perfect but I can not do much more for a show room tank, the first two month I did put the fish in a bare tank, change water every day, no other fishes etc... and they were having the same pepper black mark.

Thanks in advance

[Willie]

I think you know the answer to your question. The discus are under stress.

1. The tank mates are extremely aggressive fish.
2. The gravel in the tank precludes good hygiene.
3. The sides of the tank are dark.

Its clear from the video that the discus are not comfortable under these conditions. Kept in their own tank, with a white background and large, frequent water changes, these fish have a good chance developing in reasonable adults. In these conditions, they'll gradually fade away.

Willie

[Mustang65]

- You're talking about the silver dollars I suppose, I have the silver dollars since 1 1/2 years and I never notice from them any aggressive behavior toward any fish but I am aware that silver dollars are semi aggressive. The discuses navigate with and follow the silver dollars; often I see the discus going toward the Silvers but your point is taken. My silver dollars never killed any Tetra neon

- The Background, I was convinced that discus, in their real environment likes Dark theme because they are very shy (often I read to reduce the light cycle), on this one I am confused? I bought the dark background for this reason. I have no problem to change the background.

I am aware about gravel precludes good hygiene but I do compensate this issue with an air pump system spread over the tank, this should do it, No!


I was more concerned by the hardness of the water
Thanks Willie

[April]

well...pepper is caused by stress and water conditions..and also where you got your fish from. fish in a tank with other tank mates and gravel and plants and heavy feeding..are bound to get stressed and pepper among other problems. from your video..one looks thin..and they look like their growth is or has slowed down. they would do best in a bare bottom tank with daily water changes and even parameters and no food left on the bottom . small feedings just what they will eat in a few minutes. are they eating well and coming up for food ?

[April]

oh i love your little video you made. was enjoyable to watch.

[Mustang65]

Yes
They are coming at the surface and eat all food given; of course they have to run after the food because other will get it fast too. This part seems fine. they come see me everytime I stand in front the tank and seem to ask for food.

like I said, I know I am not doing it like a perfect breeder (bare tank with daily water change) but I am not a breeder and don't want to be. I see picture of other tank with gravel and other type of fish and the discus don't seem stressed neither. Why Could I not do the same?

I don't think (correct me) I am acting as a bad discus owner. I could do better yes but I read so much of other tank owner that change water 3 time a week and behave like I do and don't have stressed Discus.

Like Willie recommanded, I took of the dark background off and I plan to quarantine the silver dollars to see if it has any effect.

any other recommandation?

[Cosmo]

How often do you clean your filter ? I know eheim says they can go for several months, but this doesn't work for Discus. If you're not cleaning it at least monthly that could be part of the problem.

I noticed you didnt' mention nitrates... though not as toxic as nitrites and ammonia, a buildup of nitrates will poison the fish over time.. Discus are more sensitive to this than the others in your tank.

The water looked a little cloudy too and that could be a combination of the hardness as well as insufficient filter cleanings... especially if you're feeding beefheart.. rotting beefheart will cloud the water and build up the nitrates real fast.. I'd try stopping the beefheart for awhile, and keep the filter clean... rinse the media with tank water and change the fine and course pads.. also.. using a prefilter on the intake will go a long way in keeping the filter free of debris between cleanings..

I'm thinking nitrates are your problem... the eheims are so good at eating ammonia and nitrites, they literally become nitrate production factories if they're not cleaned regularly :(

Do you vaccum the gravel each time you do a WC? If not, that's part of the problem as well... if you're going to have gravel, you need to vacuum it clean AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK IF NOT MORE.

At least one of your little guys wasn't looking very good at all there... was really a classy video though, wish I could do that :)

Jim

PS. I have an acrylic tank with a black background.... my fish do fine in it.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Mustang,
Daily water changes is not only for breeders. It's the optimum way to care for discus specially juveniles. If you want big healthy discus, the way to do this is w/c. Your temp is too low for juveniles. It should be a minimum of 86F. I noticed you have Pigeon Blood. Generally PB pepper more with dark background. Remember PB is not a natural occurrence in nature. If you want to reduce the peppering keep the light on and have a light background.
I would remove the silver dollar and neons. Silver as fastmovers and gets to the food first and whatever they miss your discus gets to eat. It should be the other way around. You should pick fish that are compatible to discus where they are king.

I hope I was not to harsh or blunt.

pm me

dan

[Mustang65]

Thanks Dan and Jim

Reply to Jim:
I didn't mention nitrates because I don't have a way to test Nitrates but let me go buy a test for nitrates (any recommendation)

Thanks for the advice on the filter; I bought the filter in October 04. The documentation recommends cleaning every 4 months but I will now clean it every month (I didn't know)

keep the filter clean... rinse the media with tank water and change the fine and course pads.. also.. Using a prefilter on the intake will go a long way in keeping the filter free of debris between cleanings
I am not sure I get this part but I will

I do vacuum the gravel every time I change the water. the gravel become dirty very quick but it's part of my WC routine to minimize nitrates effects
Jim, Thanks again

Reply to Dan:
it is my dilemma, I am really attached to my silver dollars and Neon and like you say It might be my problem in the tank. I understand :juggle:
if your concern is that Silver dollars take all the food first, it's not my case. During feeding time, Discus are close to the surface and silver ate the bottom, it seems the number of discus make some kind of hiearchy. yes it's Discus First. Often I see a Discus grab some food back from the silver. :crazy: the guppies are on the top (front line trying to still food)
Like I said I will put my discus in quarantine for now
Dan, What the problem with the Neon?


You should pick fish that are compatible to discus where they are king.
where do I find a list of compatible discus?
I previously mentioned that I took care of the background (I didn't think this one could be a problem but Black BG is gone)


Note:
Since I increased the found cycle, the fish seem to get better; I guess this action was really needed

To do list so far:
Background issue => Done
Check for Nitrates
Quarantine the sylver dollars
Clean the filter
stop for a while the beek heart
increase CW
increase Temp from 82 to 84


Again Thanks to both of you, Guys.
any other comments? Good or bad (It's oK)
Joe

[Carol_Roberts]

Your pH, GH and KH are all fine - in fact mine are all higher than yours.

Everyone has given you good advice. Try them in a bare, discus only tank with light back ground and see if peppering fades . . .

If your discus are from the pet store they may genetically carry more peppering than pigeons purchased from a discus specialist.

[Mustang65]

Thanks Carol

I just went to buy myself a Nitrate Test Kit

Nitrate test result: 0 ppm
(i did test it twice)
I will re-run a set of test later the week.

It's certainly my imagination but after three days of better care, the Discus seems having a better navigation in the tank. (I want to believe :))

Thanks again to all, I did receive good advices. The worse is that I know the basic but as usual I tried to convince myself that I better, nothing better than following the basics rules.

I noticed that posting my video was a great media for other to help diagnose my tank, I will post more ....

I also learned few new things as well, such as, how to clean my canister filter and the clear background stuff.

I still don't get why should I put my neons away perhaps someone can tell me more

Regards, Joe

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Joe,
Neons belongs in cooler water parameters than discus. If you want tetras try Cardinals, they can withstand higher temp. IMO juveniles discus do better in temp 86 - 88F. Neons will suffer from this heat but cardinals will do just fine.

Dan

[Mustang65]

Thanks Dan

I do Understand! now

so far I raise the temp to 84
I sure the discus will feel better

I also read on this forum and other that it is pretty common to have peppering Pigeon Blood and could even come from the Parent. is it true?
but at the other hand, Carol did posted a great pictures of a Pigeon Blood

Thanks again

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Thanks Dan

I do Understand! now

so far I raise the temp to 84
I sure the discus will feel better

I also read on this forum and other that it is pretty common to have peppering Pigeon Blood and could even come from the Parent. is it true?
but at the other hand, Carol did posted a great pictures of a Pigeon Blood

Thanks again
Peppering is part of Pigeon Blood. The higher grade have less or no peppering.

This PB came from Cary and there's absolutely no peppering on it.

dan

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Here's another PB without peppering.



dan

[Eddie]

AWSOME FISH. All of them

[discusmick]

Both of my PB are peppered buy I bought them like that as I think it gives them character & my two aren't stressed so it must be in the genes somewhere

Mick

[RAWesolowski]

Mustang,

The peppering in PBs is the dispersion of the melanin that composes the stress bars. Through breeding, the stress bars can be eliminated in discus. However, many PBs maintain peppering and, as they age, it becomes more and more apparent. The peppering may increase with stress or a dark substrate or a dark background.

As I read through this posting, I was startled that no one mentioned this probabilty until you asked the question. I think that the posters assumed that your fish had suddenly become peppered.

The attached photo is a young PB, about 10 months and 5 inches.

[RAWesolowski]

This photo is dad. He is about 3 years old and a little over 6 inches. Since mom has about the same amount of peppering. I expect the kid to get darker. By the way they aren't stressed...

[Mustang65]

Yes when I got the discus, they already have some peppering spots but less than today. But I have a picture of the parents and they don't have any peppering. So far I will follow the instruction given to me and give a try. My fish are happy in the tank and doesn't seem stressed. I am not an expert but the stress comes also with a shy attitude (Fishes try to hide all the time, doesn't move from one area and doesn't come in the front when you feed them etc..) mine aren't like that, the enjoy the entire tank, come or food all the time etc...

A point, I cannot discard is, my fish are juvenile and need more care for now!


Picture:
the flowing picture is a picture of the Discus few weeks I got them, they did stay in a bare tank for a while till I moved them into the bigger tank with the other fishes

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hey Mustang, They look good. Another trick to redcue peppering is to keep the light on 24/7.

dan

[RAWesolowski]

"It must be because of my care and not because of parents"

Don't go on that guilt trip 'stang. Peppering most often develop with age. Clean cross parents, that is "no pepper", will often toss a whole brood of little peppered darlings. It's called genetics or dice, take your pick.

You can minimize peppering by providing light backgrounds, substrate and lots of light. Seems that fish will change to attempt to match tyheir environment. Oh yeah, don't forget:
1. Water changes,
2. Clean filters,
3. Clean tank,
4. Water changes!

After all, a fish in a clean tank has fewer reasons to stress...

[Mustang65]

Ah Ah Ah! (I like your reply)

Since few days I went back to daily change (use to be 3 time a W), Gravel vaccum, three time feeding, Light background, increase temp to 86 (from 82). etc

Now I need to wait, time will tell! it's been a lot of change for the fish and the peppering will not go away overnight.

Do not worry, I have no guilt, I do my best and they survived me since three months. If they must die, I will try again with others but I did learned a lot about Discus so far

Thanks for all your help and recommandation
I will certainly post a new Vid in two weeks

[SHAWN WARDLE]

I BOUGHT5 TANGERINES AND 5 PANDA'S FROM CARY AT GLD ALL BUT 2 ARE PEPPERED AND I THINK IT'S IN THE GENES. THERE STILL REAL BEAUTIFUL FISH PERFECT BODIES AND COLOR. IDON'T THINK MINE HAVE ANY STRESS IN MY OPINION. I ALSO HAVE CARDNIAL TETRA'S IN A 90 SHOW TANK WITH GRAVEL AND DRIFT WOOD.

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I BOUGHT5 TANGERINES AND 5 PANDA'S FROM CARY AT GLD ALL BUT 2 ARE PEPPERED AND I THINK IT'S IN THE GENES. THERE STILL REAL BEAUTIFUL FISH PERFECT BODIES AND COLOR. IDON'T THINK MINE HAVE ANY STRESS IN MY OPINION. I ALSO HAVE CARDNIAL TETRA'S IN A 90 SHOW TANK WITH GRAVEL AND DRIFT WOOD.
What color is your background and gravel?

dan

[Mustang65]

Hi All

I would like to follow up and give some news from my PB Discus peppering (Good News).
My Pigeon Blood discus did lose 50% of the peppering so far, further more, late last night, 4 of the 6 Discuses were complete Peppering free.

I did follow most of the giving advices and it seems to work (you guys rocks) :
Here is the list of things that I believe were the most efficient in order of important:

1 - Increase Temp from 82 to 86
2 - Increase the daily feeding cycle
3 - Daily Water Change
4 - Clear Background change

This morning, they have peppering but a lot less then they use to be, it's really noticeable.

I would like to thanks all of you guys. It makes me feel really good to see those improvements with my little babies :)

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Post Pics buddy.

dan