starting with adults vs juveniles

[angeldoodle]

I was surpised to hear that some would recommend adults before juveniles (in a planted tank). I always had much better luck with my young angels. They seemed to hit the "ground running" better. And the younger the better (dime size). When I got some older ones they would either sulk around or go up and down up and down along the tank wall (which I hate). I would always have to start the older ones with live brine shrimp to get them excited about eating (they seem to love the hunt).
How have you found adults vs juveniles moving into a new tank? I will be getting them from a good source (btw). I like the idea of getting a bunch of young ones from the same source at the same time so they can all work all the territory issues etc. on even ground. But then again, it sounds like you can be more sure of the final color and markings with adults (which would be nice). Would you recommend getting all the adults at the same time or introduce them a few at a time (the tank will be cycled using some of my freeder fry producing platies btw so it won't be a "new" tank).
THanks so much guys! I'm glad I finally found you. This is by far the best resource.

[JeffreyRichard]

Many of the folks here advocate bare-bottom/massive water change/massive feeding as they tend to have a goal of big discus fast ... hence the massive feedings. In that situation, it is difficult to keep a planted tank clean if you are puring in food constantly.

If, on the other hand, your goal is normal/moderate growth (typical display fish growth), then you should have NO problems with young discus growing out. I would recommend the following:
- limit feeding to twice daily ...
- do not feed beefheart; instead feed pellets, frozen plankton/bloodworms/mysis, or live blackworms ... clean foods
- do twice weekly water changes ... 50%
- keep your stock of fish light
- START WITH QUALITY FISH

If you've had success with angels this way, you should have success with discus.

Good Luck

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
I think Jeffs point on what your goal with Discus is will dictate whats best for you.

The majority of people here have found that Discus do better in bare tanks because Discus addicts tend to overstock and want very large discus...which means lots of food. Its been my experience that discus will grow faster, larger ,and have less health issues in a bare tank. I have corresponded with many people here who started with planted/substrate tanks and abandoned them for the ease of a bare glass tank.

That doesn't mean that it can't be done... Discus can be raised in a planted tank... Though I have tried many times and not been very happy with the results. IMO, The growth generally is slower and the end product is often a smaller discus. If theres a disease its very hard to erradicate... additionally there are considerations that Jeff indicated. But if you stock lightly, keep the water clean, discus in a planted tank are possible. I would reccommend adults to start in a planted tank though.


If I might make a suggestion. Get young fish, grow them out in a bare tank. Learn about them and how they respond to your care and water.. Be Sure they are healthy and growing well ...Then several months down the line , try them in a planted tank if you still want one.

Good luck and welcome!! If I can be of any help. Please drop me an IM.

Take care,
al

[angeldoodle]

Thanks so much guys! I've decided that I'm going to continue to tweak my angel tank --until I feel really REALLY good about it (lower levels of algae and maybe a totally successful spawn -- I've only had babies when I had them outside (that's another story ;) )). But then I will start on a Discus tank. That will probably early next fall -- I will keep reading and keep learning -- I've got a lot of old posts to read on this forum!

[tpl*co]

What Jeff describes sounds like my tank!

Except for the light stocking :p .

I do about a 25% water change every other day to at least 3x a week

I reduced the amount of gravel, and will probably do it again to just the back half of the tank with my crypts with the anubias attached to the wood. (I had about 1 1/2 inches before but with the feeding of my discus, it would get trapped in the gravel, even with some loaches, so I've been slowly reducing the gravel and it helps keep it clean. keep the gravel to a minimum for your plants)

I feed clean foods, frozen bloodworms, mysis, some brine shrimp, black worms and flake. My fish for some reason don't like beef heart, they like the turkey heart in cichlid chow though, but I feed it directly from my hand so I know they eat it all.


I started out 4 of my fish as young juv. fish around 2" and they are the friendliest, get excited when they see me and eat pretty much what I offer them (especially if they see a red plastic cup that I defrost their food in or the worm cone :D ) I had to acclimate them to the tank but it wasn't as hard as the bigger discus I got about 3 weeks ago.

I got some young adult discus 3 weeks ago and it was a lot harder getting them adjusted. There wasn't any agression since they were a little larger than my established juv. discus, but they sulked and went on hunger strikes even though I offered them the same types of food as their previous owner! They are not as tame and they are just starting to acclimate and eat as much as I like to see (my young discus are pigs, think inlaws at Thanksgiving losening their belts to eat more kinda eating :D )

So, I'd lean tword growing up my own. The downside is you don't know how they'll turn out or the color they'd eventually turn out. I will probably need to thin them out when they get full size too. I have 6 in a 50 gallon tank with other fish too.

[Howie_W]

I was surpised to hear that some would recommend adults before juveniles (in a planted tank). I always had much better luck with my young angels. They seemed to hit the "ground running" better. And the younger the better (dime size). When I got some older ones they would either sulk around or go up and down up and down along the tank wall (which I hate). I would always have to start the older ones with live brine shrimp to get them excited about eating (they seem to love the hunt).
How have you found adults vs juveniles moving into a new tank? I will be getting them from a good source (btw). I like the idea of getting a bunch of young ones from the same source at the same time so they can all work all the territory issues etc. on even ground. But then again, it sounds like you can be more sure of the final color and markings with adults (which would be nice). Would you recommend getting all the adults at the same time or introduce them a few at a time (the tank will be cycled using some of my freeder fry producing platies btw so it won't be a "new" tank).


Hi angeldoodle,

It's best to start out with a larger size group of juveniles all from the same source, and grow them out in a bare bottom tank. If introducing fish from different sources it is essential they be quarantined seperately before placing them in the same tank to eliminate the potential for disease.

Your overall goal should be to grow out the fish to their full potential, while at the same time maintaining good health.

I've grown out juveniles in planted tanks on a number of occasions, and have always found the results to be lacking in comparison to growing out in bare bottom tanks. One of the main things to consider when growing out Discus is the effects of both the water quality and the pecking order. In a planted tank, the more dominate fish are often successful at reducing the amount of food some of the other fish will get. At the same time, if you are reducing the amount of daily feedings this also effects how much food some of the less dominate fish will consume during their critical growth months. Finally, water quality plays a big part in the development of the fish...something that is much easier to maintain in a bare tank.

In general, less than optimum water quality and reduced feedings often result in the fish being stunted unnecessarily.

HTH

Howie

[JeffreyRichard]

Hi angeldoodle,

Your overall goal should be to grow out the fish to their full potential, while at the same time maintaining good health.

HTH

Howie

Why "should" everyone's goal be to grow out fish to full potential? I think that's up to the individual ... why isn't maintaining healthy fish in a diverse (community or planted) environment valid? I know of many keepers who don't care about the size of fish ... they just desire healthy fish in the context of a complex display ...



Hi angeldoodle,

I've grown out juveniles in planted tanks on a number of occasions, and have always found the results to be lacking in comparison to growing out in bare bottom tanks.



Again ... that is up to the individual. It may be just fine that the discus are growing at a slower rate than in a bare-bottom tank


Hi angeldoodle,

Finally, water quality plays a big part in the development of the fish...something that is much easier to maintain in a bare tank.



Agree that water quality plays a big role ... but can you conclusively say that a planted tank WQ is worse than a BB tank? Suppose I've created an equilibrium with plants and fish, don't overstock or overfeed. I maintain the plants actually IMPROVE the WQ.

Now, plants alone will not help situations where discus are overstocked and heavily fed, unless the tank volume is huge.

I conclude that massive Water Changes/vacumming are necessary because of heavy feeding and heavy stocking ... massive WC arn't necessary in a balanced tank.

It all goes back to what an individual's goals are ...

Jeff

[Howie_W]

Why "should" everyone's goal be to grow out fish to full potential? I think that's up to the individual ... why isn't maintaining healthy fish in a diverse (community or planted) environment valid? I know of many keepers who don't care about the size of fish ... they just desire healthy fish in the context of a complex display ...

This is rather incongruous as growing out fish to their full potential and maintaining healthy fish are one in the same. This has nothing to do with having the biggest fish possible, but instead making sure that the fish are eating properly, and that each are getting their fair share of food.





Agree that water quality plays a big role ... but can you conclusively say that a planted tank WQ is worse than a BB tank? Suppose I've created an equilibrium with plants and fish, don't overstock or overfeed. I maintain the plants actually IMPROVE the WQ.

Now, plants alone will not help situations where discus are overstocked and heavily fed, unless the tank volume is huge.

I conclude that massive Water Changes/vacumming are necessary because of heavy feeding and heavy stocking ... massive WC arn't necessary in a balanced tank.

It all goes back to what an individual's goals are ...

Jeff

First and foremost, it is important to remember that this is a BEGINNERS SECTION, and as such it is important to advocate a method that works best for people starting out in the hobby. Many people here on the forum spend countless hours helping people who are new to the hobby trying to eradicate a wide variety of health problems that occur time and time again. The chance of potential problems occuring are significantly higher in a planted environment when trying to grow out juveniles. It would be great to think that everyone could set-up a planted tank, and always acheive a perfect environment for growing out juvenile Discus, but this just isn't the case.

Jeff,

How often do you grow out juveniles in a planted tank? If you would like to concentrate on demonstrating the proper way to go about this I think it would be extremely beneficial to many hobbyists. If you would like to do so I suggest you begin a thread over in the planted tank section. It would be important to document it as a longterm project, including pictures that show tank set-up, substrate, plants, filtration, and ofcourse the feeding and water regimen.


Howie

[JeffreyRichard]

This is rather incongruous as growing out fish to their full potential and maintaining healthy fish are one in the same. This has nothing to do with having the biggest fish possible, but instead making sure that the fish are eating properly, and that each are getting their fair share of food.


This is probably just symantics, but I view them not to be the same ... full potential conjurs up an image of growth to me ... perhaps others are interpret the statement as I believe you are intending.




First and foremost, it is important to remember that this is a BEGINNERS SECTION, and as such it is important to advocate a method that works best for people starting out in the hobby. Many people here on the forum spend countless hours helping people who are new to the hobby trying to eradicate a wide variety of health problems that occur time and time again. The chance of potential problems occuring are significantly higher in a planted environment when trying to grow out juveniles. It would be great to think that everyone could set-up a planted tank, and always acheive a perfect environment for growing out juvenile Discus, but this just isn't the case.


As a BEGINNERS FORUM, I believe it is important to present ALL THE INFORMATION. The safest, most sure-fire way to succeed is the bare-bottom/massive water change methodology. But that is not the ONLY way. Many newbes are only newbes to Discus, not fish keeping. And more than a handful of newbes ask about community or planted environments. For the most part, the advice given here focus' on the Bare-bottom/massive water change methodology. Almost never are alternatives presented ... this is my peeve. I am offering an alternative when folks ask.

My feeling is that many people interpret the good advice here as "the only way" ... and become discouraged or scared off when this methodology doesn't fit their goals.

Again, I'm not knocking the popular approach ... just presenting an alternative that beginners can learn from.
Jeff,


How often do you grow out juveniles in a planted tank? If you would like to concentrate on demonstrating the proper way to go about this I think it would be extremely beneficial to many hobbyists. If you would like to do so I suggest you begin a thread over in the planted tank section. It would be important to document it as a longterm project, including pictures that show tank set-up, substrate, plants, filtration, and ofcourse the feeding and water regimen.


Howie

I'd like to do this ... eventually. I barely have time for my existing fish, and my planted 55 is set up for angels at this time. Perhaps in the near future ...

Jeff

[RyanH]

Since time is such a valuable commodity for you why not just post some pictures of your juveniles being grown out in a planted tank? A longer-term study would be most interesting though. When you have the time to put something together please keep us updated on your progress.

Personally, I'd love to have the best of both worlds: that is, growing out large, healthy, well-kept Discus and having a showtank. Unfortunately, my experiences have been similar to Al's in that I've had an awful tough time achieving that with juveniles and a gravel, planted tank. My problems were that I felt like I was constantly battling various diseases. This seemed to be more of an issue for me than size (although my barebottom grown Discus WERE noticeably larger). I just got damn tired of having sick fish all the time. In the end, the only variable that I changed was that I removed the gravel, rocks, and plants. Suddenly my fish were healthier, happier, and I had far fewer disease problems. If nothing else, I saved money on meds.

Any insight on your part as to exactly HOW to accomplish this would be most appreciated... since it is your claim that it is not difficult to do. My experiences have been quite the contrary.

thanks
-Ryan

[Cosmo]

Over the years, I've grown many juveniles into very very large discus in gravel bottom tanks.. with UGF's no less. In those days, my maintenance routine (i.e. WC frequency/volume) was no where near what I do now.. plastic plants (same as today) :o Only problem was... like the others I was constantly battling disease, and buying meds :( I've avoided live plants (despite heckling from a certain friend on the forum who will remain nameless :) ) because it makes it much more difficult to deal with health issues due restrictions on temp/salt, etc..

But all this is beside the point to the original question I think.. and, I think Al's and Howie's point was at least partially that adult Discus already have mature and proven immune systems so they are less likely to succumb to disease, and, consequently, the owner will not incur the trouble, expense, and difficulty of dealing with the problems that might be more likely with a juvenile.

Unlike some, size isn't the over riding factor for me.... happy and healthy fish are :) I have one tank remaining that still has gravel in it.. and adult Discus.. in two weeks the gravel comes out simply because what I see when I vaccuum the gravel makes me sick... and I vaccuum every day. That, and the fish in the BB tanks in the fishroom look so much happier and more vibrant... same water, same food... only variable is the gravel.

I prefer to buy juveniles and watch them grow too, even in a gravel bottom tank. I'd also LOVE to have a planted tank, instead of using "phony" plants (LOL) Howevr, If I were ever to go that route and add live plants... think I'd keep the "show" theme and simply put healthy, colorful, adult fish in it and kick back and enjoy :)

but then... that's just my 2 cents
Jim