Stunted expectations

[ed8t]

I'm growing out a school of 10 juvies varying in size from 3 to 4+" and there's a couple of fish that always seems to get picked on. They are the smaller of each of the strains but otherwise they are good eaters, but growing at a smaller pace than their tankmates.

Are they destined to be stunted due to stress from being chased around? So out of a school of juvies, is it reasonable to expect a couple to be stunted?

[Carol_Roberts]

Yep, usually one or two are smaller

[bio new]

Yep, usually one or two are smaller

Carol,

I have at least 3 stunted discus. If I separated them to another tank and give all what is necessary for a discus, do you think they can be back to normal like their peers in the original tank?

CHEERS!

[Northwestcoastdisc]

Yes you can pull out 3 smaller discus in another tank, you should feed them a lot, they will grow reach the same size also you have do w/c a lot.

hth

Duncan

[bio new]

Hi Duncan,

Thx alot for your reply. Will transfer them to another tank as advised. Let me post a picture of a stunted fish that I have.

Hi Carol,

Thread entitled DISCUS SHAPE has reference. Thx.

CHEERS!

[Howie_W]

Hi bio new,

Regarding the picture you have posted;

The underdevelopment of the spiny rays (just above the forehead), and the overall shape (especially the forehead) are not completely correctable.

The best thing you can do for juveniles that are not getting their fair share of food is get them into another tank where they are eating regularly and ofcourse getting fresh stable water, and then hope for the best.

Sometimes the fish will catch up, but in many instances, especially depending upon their age, it becomes too late for them to catch up.


Howie

[ShinShin]

The proper amount of food at an early age is very important for growing discus. Depravation so young will not allow a discus to reach maximum potential. This is one reason why, when a juvenile gets sick early in life, it rarely turns out to be an exceptioal fish. Seperating the 3 smaller will only create a new pecking order with the larger fish dominating the 2 smaller, creating the same situation you are trying to escape. Proper tank size and large feedings place throughout the tank will help all get enough to eat.

[bio new]

Hi Howie and ShinShin,

Thank both of you for your comments and suggestions.

When I purchased that discus, I was naived about the shape. She has the most colour and stripes amongst her other tankmates at the LFS. I took for granted that with proper care, she can improve with her body shape. So after about 5 months of keeping, it seemed that the shape did not improve. She is about 3".

She has chronic bloat case. After many treatments of Epsom salt, she did not recover much till today. Daily 90% WCs and good food - BH, BW and tetrabits. She has been housed with 2 others (stunted too) from same batch of fish that I first bought.

Considering she was about 12 weeks old when I brought her back from LFS, today must be around 8 to 9 months. She is 3" but has the most territorial behaviour among her other 2 tankmates.

I hope the picture posted and Howie's description of its spiny rays (just above the forehead) and overall shape will help newbies know how a stunted discus looked like.

BYE.

[Howie_W]

As Mat noted, the early months are extremely important, so much so that it soon reachs a point where it becomes too late. Juvniles that become sick, and food deprived end up being less than desirable.

I'd also like to clarify that when I mentioned transfer to another tank, it would be in a situation where there are more than just 3 fish so that agression is spread out...it's entirely up to you as the only other option would be to cull.



Howie

[bio new]

As Mat noted, the early months are extremely important, so much so that it soon reachs a point where it becomes too late. Juvniles that become sick, and food deprived end up being less than desirable.

I'd also like to clarify that when I mentioned transfer to another tank, it would be in a situation where there are more than just 3 fish so that agression is spread out...it's entirely up to you as the only other option would be to cull.



Howie

Howie,

Thx for explaining the stunted matter to me. It is indeed a great help from you.

I might shift her to a planted tank once I setup one.

CHEERS!

[Robin764]

This is my stunted fish. She was my first, and unfortunately suffered a lot in a planted tank with guppies, mollies, etc. Not to mention an ammonia spike that should have killed them all. (I followed the LFS advice of waiting a week before adding fish) This was a 90g tank and hadn't even gone through first stage seasoning when I added the fish. She is 10 months old and only about 3 1/2 inches. She is my early warning alarm in the tank.
I recently had a bout of a bacterial infection, that started with her and the back of her dorsal fin. I do my water changes religiously, and was a bit upset that this started in my tank. I wash filters, sponges etc every 3 weeks. However what I had neglected to check was my heater cannister connected to my wet/dry. It was so nasty inside that I broke the darn thing trying to get it out!
Needless to say all is well now...Infection stopped before it reached all the fish. A few were infected however, and a week later are none the worse for wear.
I would never trade her for the world. She practically jumps into my hand at feeding time. She has been most forgiving of my newbishness when she was purchased, and really probably should have died!! I was such an idiot! But thanks to this forum, she has a good chance of living out her days happily:)

Robin

PS. the tear in her dorsal is do to a nasty spat with another female over a breeding cone.

[RyanH]

I just wanted to pipe up here and agree with what Howie said. Even for those of you who do not adhere to or agree with, the BB/ huge WC method that we here at Simply advocate, if this method is followed for even the first 3-6 months of a fishes life, it has been my experience that you see a noticeable difference in the overall size and health of your fish in the long run... even if it's kept in a planted tank while it's still growing. This time is, by far, the most crucial for a fish to reach its full size and health potential.

Not to get on too much of a soapbox here but I think that the main culprit for people who have problems with young Discus purchased at an LFS is that far too often these fish are kept in small, dirty, disease-ridden tanks and are only fed occasionally with mediocre food. This means that these fish start out their lives fighting adversity and the hobbyist that buys them will more than likely be disappointed with the results.

I bought a group of 15 red turqs, red snakeskins, and (hopefully, we'll see) fireworks from Cliff Young when I was in San Francisco three weeks ago. One fish got hex almost immediately after I got them home. After about a week and a half of Metro treatments (and not eating) he was doing better but was already MUCH smaller than his siblings... nearly half their size. His window of opportunity closed that quickly. The others are doing incredible. They will be breathtaking fish when they mature. The sickly one was culled.

There is a small window of opportunity with young Discus. Once that window closes it is very difficult, if not impossible, for them to catch up IME.

Culling sucks, but if your goal is to only keep fish that are large, healthy, and vibrant, then it is sometimes a necessary evil. :sad:

JMHO

-Ryan

[Robin764]

Bah!! I was wrong!! She grew a bit on me somehow...lol. That female bristlenose in the pic with her is about 2 & 3/4 inches.

Robin

[RyanH]

Robin,

I have a couple of fish like that that I also would never trade in a million years. They somehow managed to survive through my ignorant years and I think they should reap some of the benefits of my finally learning from my past mistakes. :D

Plus, I have a soft spot for them.

I'm only a picky, cold-hearted SOB with my new fish. :p

-Ryan

[Robin764]

lol!! Me too:):)

[bio new]

I just wanted to pipe up here and agree with what Howie said. Even for those of you who do not adhere to or agree with, the BB/ huge WC method that we here at Simply advocate, if this method is followed for even the first 3-6 months of a fishes life, it has been my experience that you see a noticeable difference in the overall size and health of your fish in the long run... even if it's kept in a planted tank while it's still growing. This time is, by far, the most crucial for a fish to reach its full size and health potential.


-RyanYes, I agree as quoted.

My stunted (pictured above) was bought from LFS with that shape. She was in another tank with other SS. As already mentioend, she had chronic bloat case. Epsom didn't help her.:( Her growth has stunted to a great extent.


In another tank of RSGs, I adhered religiously with Simply's method of discus keeping. They are in good shape and size. They're in the 7th month now, the biggest in the center is around the size of a CD ROM. Here's the photo. What I believe now is that there is no short cut to discus keeping other that good clean water and sufficient good food.

I am so happy with people here who have guided me so well in discus keeping.

Thank you all.

[RyanH]

Those RSG's look fantastic!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Great job with them. :)

[Carol_Roberts]

excellent shape - very healthy looking :thumbsup:

[Howie_W]

bio,

Great job with those fish, they look nicely rounded and healthy! :bounce: :thumbsup:


Howie

[bio new]

Hi,

One thing I like to be here is that members, especially those who really got the knowledge and experience, are ever ready to offer a helping hand to newbies like me. It is because of the professional advice that I got from senior members like Carol, Howie, Ryan, JimmyL, Barb, Duncan and others that I am unable to mention, I managed to keep my discus with much less hassle.

CHEERS!

[ed8t]

One thing I like to be here is that members, especially those who really got the knowledge and experience, are ever ready to offer a helping hand to newbies like me. It is because of the professional advice that I got from senior members like Carol, Howie, Ryan, JimmyL, Barb, Duncan and others that I am unable to mention, I managed to keep my discus with much less hassle.


Agreed! Don't think I would have considered Discus at all if I didn't think that there is available help around the corner.

[ed8t]

Just thinking this out a little further, in a school of Discus there will be expectations of a couple of stunted fish, why not have a couple of "designated stunters"? Fish that may otherwise be culls or less desirable fish could be the designated stunters thereby given the smaller quality specimans a better chance of growing up with less stress and better development.

I know that that sounds cruel but it would have happened anyways...with or without further help from the discus keeper.

[Jason]

good Idea ED!

those "designated stunters" could turn the table too though! be surprised what an enviroment/tank/group change can do!

[Dave C]

The first batch of Discus that I owned included a free fish called a Blood Diamond. After about a month I realized that this fish was not eating and was not growing at the rate of the other fish. Another month went by and finally I noticed white feces from that fish. As I said this was my first batch of Discus so I didn't know what to do early on and was hoping the fish would figure it out on its own. It didn't. So after 2 months of my care and barely eating anything it was still small and wasting away. I've heard it said on other threads & I agree, these fish can actually shrink when they are sick. So this fish was under 2" in size.

I moved it to a 30g tank and treated with Metro. In one week the change was immediate, it was eating like mad. I kept it on its own for another 10 days so it could regain some weight and not be forced to face the aggression of the other 6 Discus while it was so weak. Then I returned it to the 50g tank with the others. It continued to do well and continued to grow. It took about 3 months for it to catch up to the size of the other fish and in 6 months it was my largest fish. In time it became the largest Discus I can recall owning, though it looked pretty normal as far as pattern goes (aka boring looking). They can recover from poor health and can make up for lost time disregarding the anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

[bio new]

Hi Dave,

Interesting info.

I always wonder whether a recovered stunted is able to spawn or not and have normal fries without any irregularities?

CHEERS!

[Carol_Roberts]

In many cases they can

[Multiclone]

I agree with Dave and Carol. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly those smaller fish can grow. I can grade 4 or 5 times and in no time at all they have caught up with the bigger fish. I delay culling these smaller fish until I am absolutely sure they are runts.

Geoff

[Northwestcoastdisc]

Hi Bio New,

your fish looking great and nice colors they start devlopment when they will grow adult hoods they will get more nice beauitful colors.

thanks bio and Ed nice comment about us. I am very glad everyone can keep with discus are happy healthy.

Good luck your disucs will breed pairs in the future.

keep up a good job!

Duncan

[bio new]

Hi ALL

Thx for being supportive.

CHEERS!