Why not go saltwater?

[177ichael]

I'm just curious why people here decided to get into Discus and not go into other types of fishkeeping such as saltwater.

Michael

[Robin764]

I think about salt-water all the time:) Cept....everytime I get another tank to set up....I end up buying more discus!

Robin

[Howie_W]

I love saltwater fish...there are so many incredible species.

However, ever since I saw my first Discus I lost all interest in keeping salt water fish. I think one of the best ways to describe them is entrancing. :)



Howie

[coltrane73]

it's amazing how different these two types of aquariums are. i have a reef tank and a discus tank. i love them both.

my discus tank (75 gallon) has only been set up for 3 months but so far everything is good. with discus, the primary focus is on the fish and maintaining water quality with frequent water changes. you'll spend most of your money on the fish themselves. set up and maintenance is relatively cheap, especially if your tap water quality is decent.

my reef is only a 10 gallon so my options for inhabitants are limited, but it was relatively cheap to set up and easy to maintain. with the reef, it's the setup and break-in period that's tough. once your reef tank is up and running for 8 to 12 months there's very little maintenance. there's no primary focus within the tank but rather the focus is the balance among all the elements within. ultimately you start to prize your coral over your fish! most of the money is spent on the setup. expect to spend about 2 grand for a decent sized setup (75 gallon) with the proper lighting and filtration (and that 2 grand does NOT include the livestock!).

besides money, the other factors are time and space. both types of tanks require commitment but unless you work 60+ hours a week there's usually enough time to maintain both. of course i can't speak for the discus breeders here. i'm imagining that if you were interested in raising them for breeding you would have several tanks in the house and not a moment to spare for a reef tank!

HTH!

[RandalB]

I've done both. I am hiatus with discus for the moment (Come on Spring!). Saltwater reef is both easy and cheap if done properly. It's also nice for the kids. My daughter loves her 20H Reef tank with it's multiple crabs, snails, corals and "Spike" the firefish goby. I had to change the timer on the lights so she wouldn't stay up at night watching!

The whole reef setup was less than $150 and looks great.

My advise to the discus crowd; if you have the time between water changes, give it a shot. It's interesting, fun and will give you insights into water chemistry and aquarium skills that will benefit your discus keeping.

But you still can't beat the discus
JMHO,
RandalB

[bikhu]

I had kept Africans for several years and decided that I wanted to get into marine fish. Then I began to read about the practices used to "harvest" fish from the reefs. These methods included explosive and chemical bombing of a reef. Most of the organism in the center of the explosion die on the perimeter of the blast many are stunned and scooped up. The ones that survive get shipped to wholesalers and eventually to hobbyists. I was appalled by this and then came across pictures of this amazing, colorful, majestic fish called Discus. I spoke to people at LFS about them and heard that they were frail, finicky, difficult fish to keep. Discouraged, I continues reading and looking for them. I found one guy at one LFS who got some Discus in for me and told me everything that I needed to do to keep them... I followed all of his advise to a "T" and all of my fish died. In the meantime I Found Simply Discus and met a guy name Al "Brewmaster15" Sabetta who directed me to do something COMPLETELY different than I had been told and success began. I soon became fully addicted to Discus!
Now I know that many species of marine fish are tank raised and that I could do a marine tank in good conscience but I am hooked up! If there is room for a tank then there is room for Discus. I must admit that we do have a 29 gal with fancy guppies. This is my son's tank but I do enjoy it ... But Discus... That's where it at for me....
Just a junky.. what can I say!?!?!

[Cosmo]

I've never considered setting up a saltwater aquarium only because I don't think my Discus would do very well in one :D

The wife and I have discussed setting up a Reef tank, especially after she saw RandalB's reef (which is sweet :) ) Maybe one of these days we'll actually do it, they are very very scenic :)

Howie.. good word, but how about... enchanting ?

Jim

[Alaskaknucklehead]

I keep both.

Discus are the only FW fish I have. Most visitors to my home think my discus are SW fish.

Here are some pics of my 55g reef tank. This is a mushroom coral and my LMB (lawn mower blennie)

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Here is my cleaner shrimp. He is just as cool as any fish in the tank. Very personable, kkeps my fish very clean and they love him. He turns them upsidedown when cleaning them, rides around on them, just nuts. Everytime I put my hand in the tank I get cleaned!! He loves to pose for pics too. :D

[Alaskaknucklehead]

A bit about my set up,

55gal display with @ 60lbs of LR and a SSB @40lbs 12 gal refugium with 30lbs LS and 20lbs LR, Seaclone protien skimmer, coralife 260W PC lighting on display, 4 Misc. powerheads for circ.
Livestock:
Flame Angel
Algae Blennie
Heppatus Tang
Grayhead Wrasse
mated pair of yellowtail's (my 1st SWtank fish, moved from my old nano)
Corals;
Purple Gorgonian
Pink Bubble Coral
5 different color types of zooanthanid corals
toadstool coral
green finger leather
devils finger leather
yellow paddle leather
nepthya
colt coral
lemnalia
Other Inverts:
30 red hermit crabs
10 blue-legg hermits
1 zebra hermit
2 sand sifting sea-stars
1 cleaner shrimp
20 misc snails
4 diff. var. of mushroom corals
2 tubeworms (featherdusters)

Here is a shot of some of my zoa's (my fav. corals)

[blaze]

because of 'finding Nemo' ...
k,,,seriuosly its beacuse i'm still am puzzled by discus

[Cosmo]

Alaska.. beautiful pics :)

Visitors and friends are stunned when I tell them my Discus are FW as well :)

Jim

[177ichael]

Those are some very nice pictures!! I recently purchased a 75g tank that I plan on growing Discus out with for now. I think I'll eventually try to set up the tank or a similar sized tank as a reef tank, but I don't want to get started now, considering I'll be moving in a year or so if all goes as planned.

I like the challenges of Discus at this point and am still a complete newbie to keeping Discus. Through my experiences and reading, I hope to keep good, healthy Discus and maybe in a few years I'll get into saltwater. It just seems as though there is so much to understand in a SW tank, not to mention the expense associated with equipment, coral, liverock, etc.

Thanks for the inspiring pics.

Michael

[mench]

Granted salt tanks and reef tanks are really super to look at if done right..but the bride says I have enough time and cash invested in my discus..I used to help a friend of mine who has a salt water fish store..we had to go out and clean tanks,add water all the maint...After doing that for a while I decided that I would stick with Discus bare bottom tanks for now...salt reef tank maybe later if my family room 100 gal african tank goes south....But I do admit that I do think about seting a salt tank up every once in a while,but I think the bride would notice the difference in the tank LOL.

Mench

[brewmaster15]

I started with fresh water, then went salt and after a few years back to fresh....this time mostly discus. I still love salt water tanks... and will probably set one up again.

My favorites.. nasotangs, lionfish, wrasses, and anemones and clowns.


What I don't like about salt... salt spray on everything. and its hard to get healthy fish stock...so many wilds are caught with cyanide and other poisons that do permanenet damage.

I always wanted to breed seahorses as well as lionfish.

-al

[Azorean]

Having lived in the South Pacific (Pohnpei Micronesia) and seen tropical marine fish in their natural environment it just depresses me to see marine fish being captured and sold thousands of miles from their home. For this reason and the other equally important reasons posted by Bikhu I have given up marine fishkeeping upon leaving Micronesia and would like to get into "home bred" discus.

However, I think it is great that some marine fish (clownfish) are being bred in ths US. Now, if they could only breed tangs and butterflyfish (along with corals) I would definetly set up some marine tanks (alongside my future discus tanks ofcourse!).

Azorean

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Thanks Jim and Michael. Discus are the "Kings of the Aquarium" no doubt, and I find them every bit as rewarding. I love how personable they can be, not that SW fish are without charm but the spell a Discus can cast upon it's owner is obbesive to say the least...

I have never been fortunate enough to live next to a real reef or even swim/dive at one. I have spent over 20 cold, dark, winters here in Alaska. The days get down to @ 3 hours of light.


My tanks are therapy. (see attached pic :D )


Just as with discus, the proper husbandry of the animals you keep is essential. Many suppliers claim "aquacultured", when they still depend on wild imports. Most of my coral came from a coral rescue project that saves corals that would normally end end up in supplier's trashcans. The big blue beast swimming around in my tank was a rescue also, didnt even think he would make it through QT. I have had him for almost a year now.
More advances and changes are taking place everyday to improve how we collect and keep marine animals, it's up to us to use them. Recource's like the Simply Discus forum are invaluable IMO.

sorry for rambling on...

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Here is a up-to-date shot of him, he's grown a bit since that last pic I posted was took. :D

[177ichael]

Excellent pics! What size tank do you have? What kind of filtration are you using? I'd love to set up a 75g sw tank at some point. I know very little about the marine fish trade, but it sounds like it has a significant impact on the natural habitat of these fish and environment. What's new...it's funny how we humans think we are always improving things when in fact we are just screwing things up even more long-term...

[Moon]

I did have a salt water tank about 20 years ago. At that time there were no reef systems, protein skimmers or wet dry filtration. It was U/G filters, pure and simple. I did have various fish that I liked and managed to kill most of them. One fish did survive a long time and became a pet. It was a bat fish. It grew to 18inches tall and the tip of the dorsal was always above the water line. So I had to sell it to the LFS.
I did have a problem with the fact that all the fish that died were wild and taken from nature. Nowadays there are some cultured fish for sale, but only a few. All the discus I have are locally bred, tank raised and I feel good about that.

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Michael,

75 would be a great size tank. LR (live rock) and protien skimming. The bacteria on/in the LR along with my protien skimmer is my filtration. Min. 1lb per gallon. is the rule but get more if you can. Building these to a point they can handle the bioloads we add into them are the stumbling stone for most people. This takes time, alot of time. If I was to set up a 75 this way it could be as much as 6 months before I could safley add anything to the system. And even then slooooow.

Though many people have had success with all types of set-ups, it seems bio-balls and the like just turn into nitrate factories. Skimming helps to remove the protiens before they break down. I also have what is called a refugium plumbed into my main tank. (check prev post for more specs) I tend to use it more as a sump though, it too contains live sand and rock. The stong current in my display makes the slow moving refugium a gathering place for deitrus. When I do WC I vaccum the sand removing the nasties. Most refugiums also have macroalgaes growing in them also as additional filtration. Mine is right now home to an evil-snail-eating-crab-killing blue leg hermit.

Another succesful trend is the BB tank. For the same reasons we keep discus in a BB tank. Deep sand beds (DSB) just let nasties sink into them and after many years can be the demise of a set-up if not removed-replaced.

With any set-up research and planning are key.

Adam

[Azorean]

Since I used to keep marine fish and corals from collecting them directly off the reef a few miles from my house, I have a few questions for the hobbists here in the States.

1. How long do soft and hard corals last in your tank? What do you feed them?
2. If anyone has kept butterflyfish, what is the longest they have lived in you tank? Have you seen any significant growth?

3. Has anyone kept Moorish Idols? I heard they were hard to keep. If you ever collect them like I did (off a dock next to a sewage dump), they are the next things to damsel fishes when it comes to the ease of keeping. Therefore, I think they are very poor shippers. They could survive in anything in my tanks! As a matter of fact, I used them to cycle my new tanks!

Believe me, I'm no expert aquarist, just been at the right place at the right time.

Would love to hear from some of you out there.
Azorean

[177ichael]

Wow, 75 pounds of live rock for a 75g tank.. I definately want to wait a couple years before I start a setup like this. I wouldn't want to have to break down my tank when my wife and I and soon to be baby (June 16) decide to move to another place. I'd love to venture into the SW aspect when I can find a permanent resting place for my tank.

So no wet/dry filtration in your reef setup? Why do bio-balls create a nitrate haven in SW yet are very effective in a FW? So much to learn about SW. At least I have a few years to get up to speed. :)

[Northwestcoastdisc]

I love saltwater aquarium those fish are so beauitful! I perfer to buy tank raise or marine breeding are better than captive in wild marine fish.

FYI in South Asian threw bomb in reef they collect marine fish , They treatment on fish to keep alive but they would not last longer . They can survival up to 3 months to die!

All marine fish can live longer more than 3 months which are very healthy! I know one place is tank raise he breeds for clownfishes! their price is $ 15.00.a pieces of clownfish.

also at Quest he breeds clownfishes, damsels, other i dont remember he lives in Cuba i am not sure.

HTH

Duncan

[Alaskaknucklehead]

WOW! Threads within threads, this is a great thread :D ! Im no expert by any means but will try to answer some of the questions the best I can.

Michael,
Im thinkin more like 150lbs for a 75 would be perfect, depending on the type. Some types of LR more dense/porous than others. Porous is the better. In reference to a 'wet/dry' system thats where bio balls are. Water from the tank is sprayed or trickles over them creating a high oxygen enviroment creating almost ideal living conditions fot the bacteria that break down amonia/amonium to nitrite. These same conditions are good for another set of bacteria that utilize nitrite and leave nitrate as waste. These 'trickle filters 'are very effecient for this part of the 'nitrogen cycle' . These filters are not however good for the final step in the 'cycle' which is to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. This requires another set of bacteria that do not thrive in the oxygen rich enviroment of your trickle filter. Thus the water coming from these filters are high in nitrate. (did I say nitrite?) :confused:

You could use one on a fish only/low light system. Or you can just take out the bio-balls. It just depends on the set-up you choose. People have been succesfull in all sorts of ways. I think the key is to choose a setup, and know both it's strong and weak points. HTH

Azorean,
Most corals when well kept (in-theory) could outlive their owners, some anenome's are believed to live over 500 years! It's probley more like 200 but that is still a heck of a long time. This is why so many aquarist's now are against the keeping of anenome's.
Corals fortunatly are a different story. Most corals can reproduce at an increadable rate if provided the right conditions. When done right, they actually grow out of thier tanks. Thus the best part, fragging.
Fragging happens in nature when a piece of coral is broken off from one place and continues to grow in another. My bubble coral was fragged from another local tank, so that coral now resides in both our tanks. This is the future of reefkeeping IMO. Though my tank is still young, I have already began to frag some my own corals that I grew from tiny frags adding to my tank - from my tank.

I know of some butterfly's at an Anchorage doctors office that spent over 14 years in the 180gal there and are still swimmin!
I dont know much about moorish idols, but do know that the henachious butterflyfish (sp?) is often mistaken for a Moorish-idol :idea2:
Both butterflyfish and m-idols are good choices for large fish only set-ups. HTH


IMPORTANT NOTE:
No matter what an LFS says, the use of fish to cycle a SW tank is NOT needed and considered cruel.
Many other things can be used to kick start a system.
Besides damsels are terrors for most people that have them anyway.

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Here is a shot of my bubble coral and angelfish.

[177ichael]

Great info and very nice pics! It seems that as far as filtration goes, LR, a refugium, and skimmer are all elements needed for a successful filtration system. Does the protein skimmer attach to the back of the tank or is it inline with the refugium?

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Thanks, your right on track Michael, LR/skimming can be all filtration a tank needs. Provided the bio loads are in line with water volume. Most people have refugium or a sump in addition. I would keep the skimmer/htr ect. inline or in the sump. Skimmers come in all types, mine can be used as an HOB or placed in the sump.

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Here is another shot of my flame angel. I love the blue on his tail. He just "glows" in the actnic's


Michael, lighting. IMO, the right lighting is just as important as filtration.

[177ichael]

Do you use a storage tank for mixing your own saltwater? I'm curious how much of a variance in different types of tap water plays a factor in having the right water conditions in sw. I know that pH stability is more important in Discus keeping, rather than a particular pH level. Same for SW? I've heard that lights are very important in SW as well. Being a higher wattage per gallon than say for a planted tank?

[Alaskaknucklehead]

Do you use a storage tank for mixing your own saltwater?

yes, a must have

I'm curious how much of a variance in different types of tap water plays a factor in having the right water conditions in sw.

massive-most need RO

I know that pH stability is more important in Discus keeping, rather than a particular pH level. Same for SW?

no

I've heard that lights are very important in SW as well. Being a higher wattage per gallon than say for a planted tank?

generally yes depending on the animals you keep


I dont know if its ok for me to post this, if not I apologize in advance but think it an A#1 starting place for anyone thinking of starting a SW tank. :)

http://thereeftank.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5