How to setup an unplanted Discus showtank.

[ecrew]

Hi everyone!

I'm getting ready to purchase a new 90 gal tank that will go in my Den.
At this time, I plan using white rock for substrate (kept at or below 1 in depth). I'm also planning on putting in driftwood and plastic plants for decorations. I plan on putting in at least 6 small to medium size Discus and probably some tetras, corys and a pleco.

Could someone please answer the following questions for me? :)
I've read a lot of threads on this site, but i'm getting confused on the whole filter deal (carbon, no carbon, canister, no canister, sponge only filters etc....). :o I want to achieve maximum filtration w/out using carbon in order to get my w/c to 2 times a week. I want to do the right thing for my Discus, but I don't want it to turn into a huge chore. I don't have a problem doing the daily w/c in order to cycle the tank, but once it's cycled, I would like to eventually get down to 2 w/c per week. Am I crazy? I've read where Discus keepers only do 2 w/c per week and some do it every day. It's sort of confusing to figure out what type of filtration I need for a 90 gal in order to help me keep the w/c down to 2 per week.

Anyway, I was thinking of using an external canister filter and a double Penguin Bio wheel. I also want to put in two hydro sponge filters to seed for QT/Hospital tanks. Will all of this work well together or is it too much?
Will this combination of filtration help me keep the w/c down to 2 per week?

I've got to run now. I'm sure i'll have more questions later. :)

Thanks,
Liz

[Carol_Roberts]

I'd run one or two Aqua clear 110's and the hydro sponges. CAnister filters are a pain to clean and really have less biofiltration than the Aqua Clear.

You can get by with twice a week water changes, but don't expect the growth you would get with daily water changes. Really A 55 gallon with 8 or 10 juveniles fed 5 or 6 times per day with daily water changes encourages the best growth and health.

[funkyfish]

as long a the bio load is not to high u mite be able to get awy with 2 large water changes . if u are getting juves in order for them to grow big they need to be feed alot and that will create alot of wastes from the fish if they are adults they don't need as much food so less wastes filtation u will have to wait for someone else to answer i know what works for me sponges in a BB. one thing food left in the gravel for 3 days will fool the water real bad any uneatin food needs to be got out of the taNk cleanliness thats would be the object to keep the bio load low

[Howie_W]

Young Discus require a combination of daily water changes and multiple feeding to grow properly.

If you are starting out with small size Discus I would skip the gravel, it does more harm than good when trying to keep your tank clean.

No matter what type of filtration you go with, Discus require clean water conditions...this means some type of daily care such as making sure excrement is not left in the tank for too long.


Howie

[rambilt]

Hi everyone!

I'm getting ready to purchase a new 90 gal tank that will go in my Den.
At this time, I plan using white rock for substrate (kept at or below 1 in depth). I'm also planning on putting in driftwood and plastic plants for decorations. I plan on putting in at least 6 small to medium size Discus and probably some tetras, corys and a pleco.

Could someone please answer the following questions for me? :)
I've read a lot of threads on this site, but i'm getting confused on the whole filter deal (carbon, no carbon, canister, no canister, sponge only filters etc....). :o I want to achieve maximum filtration w/out using carbon in order to get my w/c to 2 times a week. I want to do the right thing for my Discus, but I don't want it to turn into a huge chore. I don't have a problem doing the daily w/c in order to cycle the tank, but once it's cycled, I would like to eventually get down to 2 w/c per week. Am I crazy? I've read where Discus keepers only do 2 w/c per week and some do it every day. It's sort of confusing to figure out what type of filtration I need for a 90 gal in order to help me keep the w/c down to 2 per week.

Anyway, I was thinking of using an external canister filter and a double Penguin Bio wheel. I also want to put in two hydro sponge filters to seed for QT/Hospital tanks. Will all of this work well together or is it too much?
Will this combination of filtration help me keep the w/c down to 2 per week?

I've got to run now. I'm sure i'll have more questions later. :)

Thanks,
Liz

Hi there Liz, I have almost all of the above decorations you've mentioned in my 80 gallon setup with a Magnum 350 canister and one Emperor 400. I'm doing twice a week 25% water change. Since this is my first try with discus I'm not really sure yet if I'm getting the same result as having to change the water everyday.

In the Emperor 400 I'm using the 2 filters with the carbon and in the 2 media trays I fill it both with Lava rock. My Magnum 350 is setup pretty much the same, I filled the media canister with Lava rock. I use the Magnum also to polish my gravel before each water changes.

So far I think I'm getting a pretty good results. The 12 little discus I bought from Liz through "the buy. sell" forum was doing really well.

I guess for optimum results you have to go with a bare tank or a established planted tank... I like decorated tank and since the tank is in my study I want it to look good. :)

The experienced and very helpful member of this forum would give you all the help they can give you.. All you have to do is ask. Good luck to you!

[Cosmo]

Liz, a couple of short notes :)

1 - careful of what the white rock is made of. I used some years ago and no matter what I tried the ph stayed up in the high 7's - turns out it was a natural buffer :(

2 - massive biofiltration. I personally like Eheims w/ their sintered glass substrate, never tested but I can't imagine an AC having more bio capacity. On my 90 I have a 2217 and a 2215. Then only a pump w/ airstones. Works great.. Lava rock is good but the glass is better and the magnums won't hold near the amount of media an Eheim will...

3 - always figure the mfg recommendations on what filter works on which tank is twice as much as it really should be. Go at least double what's recommended, more if you can.

Carbon only to remove meds

(short like I promised :) )

Jim

[ecrew]

Thanks to everyone!!

Rambilt, I'm with you on the look of the tank. My 90 gal is going in the den and I want to have substrate and decorations. I don't plan on putting a lot of substrate in, but I do want some. How does your Magnum work? Do you leave it running all the time? How often do you have to change the media inside? How do you feel about using Carbon?

Cosmo, I believe the white rock came from Home Depot. I have a friend that put it in is African Chiclid tank. He has a bag leftover for me. I'll look to see what it's made of.

I'll check out the Ehiem filters. Thanks!

I'm going to try to not get juvs because I don't want to have to raise them in a bb tank first and then transfer them. I would like to buy 3-4" Discus but the cost goes up. We'll see. I'm a long way off before I buy any Discus.
I still haven't gotten my tank yet. :)

[Alight]

The white rock is most likely limestone, which is great for African cichlids, but not for Discus. The limestone will harden your water and raise your pH.

I have beautiful white rocks in my tank, but they're granite, and I checked it very carefully for problems (put acid on it--the fizz test) and soaked it in distilled water for months and tested for changes in pH and hardness, etc. before I decided it was ok to use. These are large slabs I use as a reef (I'll have to post some pictures).

I started out with plastic plants, but really got into it and upgrade the lights and now have a completely planted tank, that really does look nice---but, it's tons of work. If you think Discus take maintenance, then quadruple that effort for plants and Discus.

I went with a hybrid tank, which means the front (in front of the reef) has only 1/4 inch gravel for easy cleaning while behind the reef is 3-4 inches of gravel. This is very coarse gravel to ensure good water circulation through it to prevent anaerobic regions. Rooted plants don't do well in this gravel, but, most of the plants are anubias, stem plants and java ferns, that don't need substrate.

Anyway, good luck!

[ecrew]

Alight,

I'll be sure to check the composition of the rock. I don't want to make my life hard! :)

I was considering doing a planted tank until I realized all the work involved. I figured that I needed to learn how to care for the Discus first and worry about real plants at a later time. I only need one learning curve at a time. :o

Liz

[rambilt]

[QUOTE=ecrew]Thanks to everyone!!

Rambilt, I'm with you on the look of the tank. My 90 gal is going in the den and I want to have substrate and decorations. I don't plan on putting a lot of substrate in, but I do want some. How does your Magnum work? Do you leave it running all the time? How often do you have to change the media inside? How do you feel about using Carbon?

QUOTE]

ecrew, I only have the magnum 350 for a week and I already love it. It sure does made my gravel cleaning a lot easier. Since I'm using the lava rock in the canister media and I have foam sleeves around it to filter the water through, it may need no replacing. The foam sleeves maybe only when I notice restriction in the water flow. So far it's working for me, I leave it on all the time.

I bought the magnum at Petsmart I have them price match their online price. I got it for 84.00 + tax. From then on before I go down to my local Petsmart I always print a hard copy of their online pricing of the stuff I want to buy. It's like 50% off on some items.

About the activated carbon, I choose to leave it in my Emperor 400. I have mixed up feelings about it due to the stuff I read about in here. Most experienced discus hobbyist will also advise you not to use activated carbon. So 'll leave it up to you.

Anyway, good luck to your would be new hobby.... Don't hesitate to ask questions aroud here... They are all a bunch of very experienced and helpful people. Take care.

[ecrew]

Rambilt,

What made you choose to buy the Magnum 350 as opposed to a Fluval or Eheim canister filter?

I know what you mean about Petsmart! My husband went yesterday planning to buy a Fluval 304. I had told him that Petsmart online was selling it for $79.99. When he got to the store, the cost was $139.99. Brad told the guy about the online price.
The guy said he would have to print it off and bring it back. My husband walked down to the Circuit City and printed the form off and went back and bought the Fluval.


What made you choose an Emperor 400 as opposed to a Penguin bio wheel?

Thanks for the info!!!!! :)

[rambilt]

Rambilt,

What made you choose to buy the Magnum 350 as opposed to a Fluval or Eheim canister filter?

I know what you mean about Petsmart! My husband went yesterday planning to buy a Fluval 304. I had told him that Petsmart online was selling it for $79.99. When he got to the store, the cost was $139.99. Brad told the guy about the online price.
The guy said he would have to print it off and bring it back. My husband walked down to the Circuit City and printed the form off and went back and bought the Fluval.


What made you choose an Emperor 400 as opposed to a Penguin bio wheel?

Thanks for the info!!!!! :)

I bought the Magnum for convenience... It's so much easier to clean the gravel with the magnum, I'm pretty sure you can rig almost anything to do the same but I don't want to worry on how go about it you know. I just want to plug and play. :)

Why did I buy the Emperor 400? In actuality beacuse of good reviews and recommendations from fellow hobbyists. It's kind of noisy but it doesn't really bothers me. The magnum is so quiet I can't hear it running.

[ecrew]

Rambilt,

Sorry if I've already asked this.... Do you have a prefilter on the intake for your
magnum? After cleaning the gravel, do you have to pull the media out and rinse
it off? Does it get clogged? I know you haven't had it long so I guess you may
not know yet. What would be your guess?

I like the idea of the Magnum. We bought the Ultimate Gravel Vac which is just
like a Python. We love it. On the other hand, I like the idea of vacuuming the gravel without losing any water. I was just wondering if the stuff cloggs up the canister.

Thanks!
Liz

[rambilt]

Rambilt,

Sorry if I've already asked this.... Do you have a prefilter on the intake for your
magnum? After cleaning the gravel, do you have to pull the media out and rinse
it off? Does it get clogged? I know you haven't had it long so I guess you may
not know yet. What would be your guess?

I like the idea of the Magnum. We bought the Ultimate Gravel Vac which is just
like a Python. We love it. On the other hand, I like the idea of vacuuming the gravel without losing any water. I was just wondering if the stuff cloggs up the canister.

Thanks!
Liz

Ecrew, you have to take the media canister out and use the micron cartridge to vacuum the gravel. Then of course you have to rinse the canister full of uneaten food and stuff :) . I haven't installed any pre-filtering in the intake yet but I would. I haven't gotten it to clog up yet. Maybe when my 12 fry get bigger then they will have bigger droppings :)

[ecrew]

Oh, ok!!!!! I get it!! Sorry! :o

I'm sure you've mentioned that already. I misunderstood!

Do you think putting a sponge on the intake will slow the filtering down? I guess it depends on the type of sponge.

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . . and of course, best for beginners with juvenile discus is daily water changes in a bare bottom tank and easy to clean hang on the back filters like Aqua Clear 110 with a pre-filter sponge on the intake tube.

[gators111]

Hey ecrew,

I was in your shoes about 9 months ago. B/c I live in a small apt., I got a 30gal XH and didn't want a bare bottom tank. After doing alot of research, this is what I have. I have 4.5" of black sand, one nice pc of driftwood, 3 xtra tall silk plants and 2 smaller silk plants, basically made sure I could get to every nook and cranny to clean it. Then I've got a hot magnum pro with an aquaclear skimmer attachment rigged up to the intake and I run the micron filter 24/7. I also bought another micron filter, so while one is in use the other can be cleaned and ready to go. And I have a ViaAqua 150w heater at 84F.

So after fishless cycling, I put in 2 adolfus cories and 12 cardinals and let them settle in for 2 days, then I went back to the same LFS and got a 2.5" BD and a 2.25" brown discus. By the way, the LFS had the exact same parameters as my tank, not a coincidence. I use an aquarium pharmaceuticals tapwater filter to deionize the water and reconstitute it with Kent R/O right and use dechlorinator. I do once a week 80% water changes and I change out the filter at the same time. I then add some ketapang, instant amazon, and blackwater extract.

My tank has been up for 5 months and my fish are doing great. BD is 4.25" and brown is 3.75". I feed my 4-5 times a day, frozen foods ( formula 1, wattleys discus, watleys community, hikari bloodworms, SF white bloodworms, brine shrimp, & mysis shrimp). Also, tetrabits, flake, and red discus pellets. With all this food, the skimmer helps keep any oils from accumulating at the surface to impede oxygen diffusion.

My readings are ph 6.2, NH4 and N02 are 0, nitrates go from <5ppm to 30 ppm. Now the deep sand bed is just starting to kick off so I have started to notice a slower rise is nitrates and nitrogen bubbles releasing to the surface. If I had to go between a deep sand bed or a plenum again, I think I would do the plenum. But I would do alot of research before deciding on this.

HTH and sorry so wordy

[ecrew]

gators111,

Sounds like you've got a big setup. :) Do you have really bad water? Is that why you have to use different methods to get your water right for the tank? Sounds kind of complicated to me. :o :)

What is plenum? I was thinking of going with a white rock substrate. I don't plan on putting more than .5 to 1 inch in the tank. It's too hard to get the substrate clean when you have a lot of it.

I've decided to get a 75 gal tank instead of a 90 gal just because there was an $80.00 price difference between the two. I've purchased a Penquin double bio-wheel and the Fluval 404. I also plan on adding at least one Hydro sponge to seed for a Qt/Hospital tank. I also plan on doing a fishless cycle I think. I haven't fully decided yet. I do know one thing though, I don't plan on adding any Discus until I have a fully cycled tank. It's way too much trouble any worry if the tank hasn't fully cycled.

Good luck with your tank and fish!
Liz

[gators111]

The water aged out of the tap is 8.2 and 12gh and 12kh. The main reason is all the phosphates, which are off the chart. (central florida aquifer) Trying to prevent algae problems and IME the cardinals require acidic, soft water.

A plenum is an anaerobic space created below the substrate, usually with plastic egg crate and gravel screen. It is used as a natural denitrification process, mainly in saltwater tanks.

[ecrew]

gators111,

I'm confused about the plenum. When we first started keeping fish, we did not do regular w/c and vacuum the gravel. We overfed too. We realize something was wrong so we started doing small w/c and vacuuming the gravel. We hit an anaerobic pocket which turned into hydrogen sulfide. The entire house smelled of rotten eggs.
It was horrible. We lost all of our Tetras. We were able to rescue our two Discus and the clown loach and put them in another tank we had setup. It was an awful experience and a very scary one. We just knew we had lost one of our Discus because he turned black and started spiraling around the tank and breathing very heavily. We dosed them with epsom salt and waited. Fortunately, he recovered.

So basically, i'm confused as to why you would want to create an anaerobic space. :confused:

[gators111]

Like I stated earlier, it is a risk using a plenum or DSB b/c of what you experienced. But from all the research I did, I decided to take a calculated risk. The payoff being that anaerobic bacteria will convert nitrate to nitrogen and oxygen. The nitrogen is released, as a gas, hence the bubbles rising up out of the sand.
I just did a total rearrangement of the silk plants in order to allow better movement of the 2 discus around the tank. And I didn't have any problems. My guess is that the hydrogen sulfide is a byproduct of the bacteria that breakdown the decaying food, along with the ammonia.