references

[grelot]

I would like you to tell me where I could find infos (book or websites) that talk about discus genetic and how every strains were crated. Something that says which strains were used to create other strains.

Also something talk about the criterias to determine the strains of a fish. I mean there are tons of pictures of every strains, but I would like to have something that says that to a whatever strain, a discus must have that, that and that. I don't know if u guys understand what I mean, cause I'm afrench speaking person so it's hard to explain for me.

[April]

hi. your explaining it fine. your english is good.
alot of the people who created some of the strains..dont like to tell too much about how they were created..kinda like trade secrets.
maybe we can get some of the breeders posting on some of the ones they know how they were created.
the ghost was used to help remove bars..i believe. think strains like the sanmarah and blue diamond ghost was used.
most of the brightly coloured ones are pigeon strains. all fancy and different names..but all pigeons nonetheless. no bars. took many years to get cleaner pigeons with no peppering or very little. example red whites, yellows etc.
most of the leopards were basically rsg and rt etc..and lots of crossing etc. and the leopard snakeskins are leopard and snakeskin crossings.
snakeskins have 14 bars..or so..and finer lines. but..only a small percentage of each batch end up with the 14 bars. the rest end up being red turqs. same as the leopards..and leopard snakes not all turn out with the fine patterning or the spots. alot of the fancier ones like checkerboard or mazes..or up and down patterns etc are still red turqs but bred for different lines.

[ShinShin]

There are no known books on discus genetics that I am aware. However, I recently read that there may be some information published in the near future to help sort out domestic backgrounds.

[Carol_Roberts]

I've written an article with LOTS of pictures that illustrates the basic types of discus. This will be in the first newsletter for the North American Discus Association. WE will be opening up membership and publishing it to our website soon.

[April]

well..there you go. im sure it will be an excellent article. : )

[grelot]

thanks for the answers

But I would like to see something that say what are the caracteristics a discus need to fit into a specific category. I mean, something that says a RSG should have that, that and that and a red royal blue should be that way and have that pattern at this place with this bla bla bla.
I mean something that explain all the caracteristics of a strain.

Does it exist?

[ShinShin]

Discus Catalogue/Atlas by B. Degen has some info about wild discus species that may help you as may his book Wild Discus.

Basically, discus are ID'd by region with brown inhabiting one area, blues another, greens yet another. The difference in a "royal" green or blue is that there is more color in the fish. The term is very subjective. There are no set in stone guidelines established.

There are those in the scientific community that say there are only 2 species of discus: the Heckle, with a subspecies the pineapple or Schartzii discus. Then the brown, green, and blue are lumped into one species that just show regional color variances. Or at least that's the way I understand it.

Domestics are yet another story. A breeder can call his discus whatever he pleases. There are those that have tried to systemize naming, but with so many cross bred color varities, all I can say is Good Luck.

[grelot]

ok my examples weren't good but I was mainly talking about domestic strains. I know a breeder can give the name he wants to his fish. But if he has a fish that look like a passion melon and he is saying it's a leoppard, people will say it's ******** or he doesn't know his discus. So that's why I was asking if there was something that looks like a guide of identification for domestic strains. I mean I know what the strains looks like, but I would like to know what caracteristic make you say it's a golden PB and not a red tomato. Red tomato and GPB are just an example, that doesn't mean I want to know exactly for these ones.

thank you

[brewmaster15]

Hi and welcome to SimplyDiscus.com!

Unfortunately what you seek does not exist and I doubt it ever will. The problem is the use of Common names to describe anything always means different things to different people. The reality with naming domestics is it is a very subjective thing...There are no guidelines and this is due to the tremendous Variability seen in all the strains and Pseudo strains.

Conformity in naming isn't possible because breeders can not even agree on what % of offspring need to be like the parents to make a new form into a true strain. If you ask around you will get no answers on this or very vague ones. I know one seller that claimed if 60% of the fry were like the parents its a true strain...That means that 40% would not be, but for ease of selling probably still have the name.

Add to that the fact that every day some new color forms are being pedaled as "strains" and you have a very disorganized and meaningless naming system.

The reality is many fish are sold as such and such based on what they were sold the fish or parents as....regardless if the fish looks like what they should. Additionally you have The Reverse naming of fish,.... "well it looks like the fish in the pic or that so and so has , there fore it must be that."

I look with more skepticism on a fishes true ID as the name gets more colorful and whimsical.

The wilds are not immune to this naming game either> many fish are given a name based on what they look like, what sells and not necessarily even where they came from as it should. The names "Tefe" and "Coari" come to mind as well as many others.

I know this doesn't GIve you what you are looking for but it is, IMO, the state of naming in the Industry and hobby.

-al

[Jeff]

There is a book already published that meets your description. It is available through the Singapore Discus Club. It was written and just released recently by Martin Ng from Kula Lumpur. It has the most up to date info and combinations of crossings. It is not cheap. I will have some available for sale later this spring.

[JimmyL]

There is no standard to cross A and B to produce C since our discus today has been crossed with many strains and color of discus. Whatever or whenever they produce interesting and colorful fries, they will be kept as future breeders. I have seen one breeder whol cross any fish with a Red Spotted Green. Any fries that are pleasing to the high standard will be separated and given a name. They pass them on to a small time breeder or hobbyist and let them raise and line breed for many generations. Selelct the best to continue the line. The latest Spotted fish required at least 6 generations to fix the strain and produce about 60% of fry resembling to the parents. The rest will be rated with a different name and grades. The basic requirment is bars or no bar. Pigeon and non Pigeon. The major links are the ghost, San Merah for the turquoise and SS. Spotted fish requires Red Spotted Green. The Pigeon type needs a White strain to eliminate black dust like Snow white to inject color red or yellow in them. The white strain needs a foster parent to raise the fry like turquoise or BD. The combinations are enormous and endless. Now the hobbyists are happy with numerous choices of color but unfortunately most of the new strains are small in size. They are quite successful to imporve the size and shape of the snow white by inject LARGE SIZE discus which some hobbyist may think they are odd and funny looking. In fact, Size of discus can be determined how they were raised and the food they eat. The trick is many generations of line breeding to create a new strain. You can actually create your own if you find several small discus which strikes you eyes and start developing them. The questions is. Can you keep them pure without crossing them with other strain of discus? It's hard for an hobbyist and small scale breeder to do that. The temptation to cross them is too great.
Jimmy.

[grelot]

thanks to u guys it has answered much of my question.
So if well understood, some people who have a pair that are of the same strain but breed two different strains, will sell both under the same name.
And the opposite is also true? If some dy has some discus bought uner a name, but he think they look more like another strain, he will sell them under that other name nomatter what is the genetic background of these fishes?
That's sad... It make you have a hard time trying to buy specific strains when you buy by shipping...