Doing my homework

[drlinden70]

Hi all,

New forum member currently living in Houston TX. Water pH 7.6, 200 ppm out of the tap.

I am a long time (25 year) aquarist, with extensive experience in Tanganyikan cichlids including Tropheus and Petrochromis.

Well, the Discus bug has bitten and Im doing my homework before the bite is a nasty one. I have my eye on sub-adult Wild Caught Discus.

1) RO or No RO? I get the feeling that I should use this if the fish will be bred, but I find a lot of info on the web saying that growing discus can tolerate or thrive in 7.6 pH.

2) Drip feed water changes. I have used these extensively with my Petrochromis, whos' waste output is incredible due to their amazing appetite (10"-12" beasts). I have set it up through a carbon filter dripping into my wet-dry filters, with an overflow out of the wet-dry outside to the garden. When set wide open, 100%-200% of the water is changed in a day. Does anyone use such a system with Discus?

3) Is it better to start with tank raised fish? Tank raised Tangs tend to be more resistent to the dreaded bloat that can wipe out a colony. Is this the same with Discus?

David

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi David: Welcome to Simplydiscus :wave:
1. You won't need RO for juveniles. You will need RO to try and breed wilds.
2. I don't know very much about drip systems, but your ssounds fine.
3. And I don't know very much about wilds, but I think they are probably just as hardy, if not hardier than the tank bred domestics.

[Cosmo]

Sorry... it's too late, the bite is already a nasty one :D

I'm the odd man out on the forum, I use only RO. Most you'll find use straight tap water unless for breeding. Both seem to work well with Discus so long as you keep up with the WC's. Many on the forum have ph in the high 7's or low 8's and report good success.

Love the sound of your drip system, I have been contemplating something similar for my breeder tanks but have a technical hurdle to overcome first.. insufficient supply of RO :) From reading the forum the past year, I don't think many use a drip except for breeding... could be wrong... mainly because it takes so much more water to achieve the same result as draining and filling.

I have both Wilds and tank raised. Over the years my experience has been Wilds are less likely to develope immune system problems and waste away. Never had to deal with bloat, except for one worm occassion in domestics, so not sure what the answer to that would be... I'm sure others will come along with more experience with that though..

Brewmaster's a good place to start on a Wild hunt.. there are many domestic breeders on the forum as well... I've only bought domestics from Cary at GLD and been very happy with the fish but have good things about several of the others..

Welcome to Simply :wave:

Jim

PS.. your Africans sound awesome :)

[drlinden70]

Thanks all,

For any who would like to see a sample of my tanks, here is the link

http://home.houston.rr.com/leecrowder/

My supplier of African Cichlids also imports directly from South America. I have been amazed by the Discus, but realise it is a whole different kettle of fish!!!

I think I may have to dabble. BTW, the tank i will use will be a 300 Gallon Acrylic. Given the amount of water is such a tank, can the waterchanges be done on a twice a week basis? Im not a lazy aquarist, but once a day is for the most part (given children, work etc etc) just not doable....hence my question about drip feeding.

Do people use wet-dry filters much for Discus?

Thanks in advance.

David

[Howie_W]

Hi David and welcome to the forum,

Your previous experience will serve you well in caring for Discus.

Your set-up sounds like it will work fine...you don't need to go the RO route to start out unless you are interested in breeding.

I think properly run wet-dry's provide excellent filtration, and peole do indeed use them for Discus.

One of the most time consuming aspects of Discus care is raising juveniles as they require daily attention. Based on this you should consider starting with adults, regardless of what type you go with. If Wilds have your attention you should indeed contact Al (brewmaster15) here on the forum as I'm sure he would enjoy hearing from you.


Howie

[Cosmo]

Wow David, some awesome pics and some pretty fish :) Have been a Discus man for 25/30 years but now I see why people get into Africans too (kind of.. lol) :)

Your tank sounds a little small for Discus...... jeeezz, I'd kill for a 300 gal, I only have a measly 180 :( The answer about the water changes though depends somewhat on the filtration and the bio load, like your African tanks I'd suppose... my guess is you'd be fine.

I've found that WC's are addicting though and tend to feel guilty if I don't do daily, and right now I'm carrying a pretty high bio load in this tank so I almost have to. Did skip a day the other day w/ no ill effect though.. except for the guilt :rolleyes2

I have a sump wet/dry I don't use only because I'm not sure how it would be with a 40% WC.. thinking I'd have to stop and restart it. For that reason, I use an Eheim w/d instead.. sealed and uses a std. syphon setup so no worry unless I go below 50%. With your drip system, I'd think the w/d would be the best way to go though.

post some pics of the 300 when you get your Discus in there :)

Jim

[ShinShin]

I am a proponent of keeping discus in water close to that of their natural habitat. Since you are contemplating wild discus, I would use RO water, breeding or not. I'd buffer it to around to maintain a pH of 5.8 and ~ 50 microsiemens. If you use RO water, why not adjust it to such parameters.

I subscribe to the thinking that the closer to natural water conditions, the better off the dicus will be. It will be healthier over the long haul. Too many just dump their discus in any water and wonder, down the road, whether it be 6 months or 2 years, why their fish have problems. I attribute many of the stress related problems being posted are linked to water parameters effecting the discus.I am fortunate to have soft water out of the tap, ~55-60 microseimens, but a pH of 6.7-6.8. I would love it if it were 5.8 pH.

[Cosmo]

Here Here ShinShin :)
Jim

[Howie_W]

I subscribe to the thinking that the closer to natural water conditions, the better off the dicus will be. It will be healthier over the long haul. Too many just dump their discus in any water and wonder, down the road, whether it be 6 months or 2 years, why their fish have problems. I attribute many of the stress related problems being posted are linked to water parameters effecting the discus.

I agree Mat, it's problem number one! I am eternally grateful for having fresh clean well water to drink from. :)


Howie

[Cosmo]

Since I use only remineralized RO, I can essentially make the water whatever I want. I keep all my community tanks at 6.2ph and about 190 microsemens. I've held them at 45 microsemens before at 6.4, but once you get that soft and down into the 5's it can become difficult to keep the water stable in a big tank... you do get quit a bit of amorous activity at that level though :D

Jim

[ShinShin]

I'm glad to see that sombody that has kept discus for more than a minute sees and values the need to reproduce natural water chemistry for their discus. If someone wants to keep fish in hard, alkaline water, find a fish who's requirements meet such water. You will have nice, healthy fish.

[JeffreyRichard]

I'm glad to see that sombody that has kept discus for more than a minute sees and values the need to reproduce natural water chemistry for their discus. If someone wants to keep fish in hard, alkaline water, find a fish who's requirements meet such water. You will have nice, healthy fish.

This is an argument that been debated over many years. I don't totally agree with everything you've said ...

First, I agree that in a PERFECT world, replication of natural conditions is BEST.

HOWEVER, reality says we (generally) need to deal with less than the ideal ... shades of grey. In this case, one needs to weigh the COST, EFFORT, EXPERIENCE necessary and the RISKS involved with water chemistry to create and maintain NATURAL conditions againsts the BENEFITS.

There is obviously cost involved with creating natural water conditions ... RO filter (or DI), water waste, chemicals to reconstitute water. The effort to do this is also non-trivial. And the dangers of improperly reconstituting water (e.g., pH crash) are real ... especially for novice fish keepers. Many experienced keepers feel it is more important to maintain CONSTISTANCY of water chemistry over actual hardness and pH values. Chemicals are easy to misuse, and the results of misuse can be disasterous. This is not to say a that careful keeper will experience problems ... they probably won't. I just know 1st hand how easy it is to make mistakes ...

Benefits? This is ambigous at best. Certainly, logic dictates that natural water conditions would be ideal. However, there is anticdotal evidence that typical (not extreme) tap water conditions are NOT detrimental ... I know this is not the same as saying it is beneficial, but work with me here ... there are numerous documented cases of discus thriving and breeding in typical tap water. Hey, I can't think of a better indicator of healthy happy discus than if they breed ...

My theory ... nothing more than logic based on years of keeping discus and other fish, is that the hybridized domestic discus is fairly acclimated to a wide range of water conditions ... much more so than wild or f1 wild discus (angelfish for that matter).

So ... I'll summerize. NATURAL is BEST ... if you have the time, $$$ and willingness to do things to create natural water. If one is a) on a budget, b) lacking the experience, or c) unwilling to dedicate the effort, and providing their tap water is REASONABLE (not too hard), then using tap water is a reasonable safe approach.

[drlinden70]

Thanks for the info all!

Houston water is naturally hard. About 200 ppm and 7.6 pH out of the tap (in my area). Given that, it is very easy for me to buffer up to 8.6 pH and 800 ppm for my Tangs.

Im thinking that I would use an RO unit however, and buffer with peat down to sub 7 pH.

Im surprised that no one has had experience with drip systems? Continuous drip has resulted in my heavily populated Tang tanks having basically zero pollutants.

Additionally, My LFS (who is a well known supplier in Houston) says that a 300 gal would be a waste and that it would be better to start in a 100 Gal.
Anyone concur with this?

David

[JeffreyRichard]

Houston water is naturally hard. About 200 ppm and 7.6 pH out of the tap (in my area). Given that, it is very easy for me to buffer up to 8.6 pH and 800 ppm for my Tangs.

Im thinking that I would use an RO unit however, and buffer with peat down to sub 7 pH.David

My tap water is softer than yours, about 120 ppm, but my pH is 9.5 out of the tap. I only alter my water for breeding ... RO filtered thru peat. I don't believe you'd have a problem with you tap water, though cutting it with 50% RO would give you a nice hardness (softness!). I wouldn't play with the pH ...


Im surprised that no one has had experience with drip systems? Continuous drip has resulted in my heavily populated Tang tanks having basically zero pollutants.

I have had a drip system for 15 years ... I set up and ran an angelfish and discus breeding operation for over 10 years. Definately assists with water changes ... though you'll still need to vacumme your tank(s) regularly, you can cut way back on water changes with a drip system. You will end up using alot of water though ... at my peak I went through 1.7 million gallons of tap water annually ($4K).

If you have any question about setting up a drip let me know ... designed and built mine myself.

Jeff

[Sergey]

I'm doing my homework too :)

>Hey, I can't think of a better indicator of healthy happy discus than if they breed ...

This is a very interesting topic. It might've been debated over for years, but the trouble is I wasn't around back then :)

How about lifespan and frequency of deseases of fish kept in approximated 'natural' compared to 'tap' water?

I'm wondering what comments people have on this article by Jim Quarles "Acid water or Alkaline Water'
http://article.dphnet.com/cat-01/alkalinewater.shtml

[ShinShin]

The largest percentage of domestic discus are bred in water very similar to the discus' natural habitat, Southeast Asia. Even those bred in "unnatural" discus water here in the states, and perhaps in Europe, are sent to various other parts of the country where water type is still different than where they were bred and raised. How can a domestic discus adapt to several different water types in one short span of time? Imported from Asia to say Florida or California, then shipped to Chicago, New York City, or Baton Rouge.

I agree discus will live in water of less than ideal parameters. My line of thinking goes along with those stated in the article by JQ. The closer to natural parameters, the better off the discus will be. I have kept discus in the limestone waters of Pennsylvania and the soft, acid water of the Pacific Northwest. Believe me, you can have the limestone waters of Pennsylvania. Great for guppies, not for discus.

I am also willing to bet that those breeding discus in harder and more alkaline water are a small percentage, and of those most are hobbyist and not pro breeders. The professional breeders, I will bet again, are mostly using reconstituted R/O or DI water if their tap water is not close to ideal.

[JeffreyRichard]

I agree with all your points ... natural conditions are BEST if all considerations are equal ...

Where I believe your comments fall short is factoring in the other elements of creating and maintaining "natural" water conditions. As I stated, you need to consider the entire picture (cost, effort, risk of mistakes), not just technical facts. When you apply the Cost/Effort/Risk factors to the situations of significant majority of discus keepers or want-to-be keepers, my opinion is that benefits gained by using Natural water conditions MAY not be worth the risk, cost and effort. Discus can thrive in less than ideal (natural) water chemistry.

This is only my observation and interpretation of anycdotal data ... perhaps there is a bigger benefit gained than I am assuming. However, given that I have observed Discus growing, thriving and breeding in non-natural water conditions, I am assuming they are happy and healthy.

Let me say this ... the FIRST choice when keeping discus should be Natural water conditions. If one has the time, experience and funds, I agree totally with your recommendation. However, if you can't do this, one can STILL be successful with Discus using tap water (assuming the tap water is not extreme regarding hardness/tds).

An implied point, and one that I've debated over the years is the "ethics" of fishkeeping ... whether one is "obligated" to only keep a fish if they can provide IDEAL conditions. In my opinion, as long as fish are healthy and thriving, that is all we must ask from a fish keeper. Above and beyond that (the "ideal") is a matter of personal preference.

I guess my point is tha one should not infer that the BEST way is the ONLY way ... there are more methods that work, and someone reading a post should understand that. If the question posed to you is "what is the ideal water condition for discus", I am with you all the way ...

Sorry to be so long winded ... I just want folks to understand I not dissagreeing about the natural water conditions ...

[drlinden70]

Thanks for the information all!

You Discus keepers are passionate about your hobby.

I am thinking I will go with Discus, and make RO water. One good thing, I can use the rejected brine into my Tang tanks.

I will keep you all posted as things develop

thanks again

David

[Cosmo]

Jeffrey,

You made a lot of good points, and I essentially agree with everything both you and Mat said, since you weren't in total disagreement with each other. There is learning curve, and expense related to RO, but, if you are willing to devote the time, and have the resources then I agree with you both that it's the best way to go, despite the fact that many have had success with Discus in tap water.

If nothing else, the city doesn't get to decide when all your fish die cause they felt like cleaning out the pipes one day :(

David... good choice on the RO :D Now there's at least three (3) of us here LOL

Something I love to point out is that people live, grow, and even breed in polluted areas like Los Angeles too (hey, I lived there for 18 years so I can say that (bred there too :D )). If you could breath fresh clean mountain air instead, wouldn't you be better off, and maybe even healthier ?

On the 300 gal tank David, the LFS is absolutly right, you should ship it to my house and I'll send you a 90 acrylic in return... deal ? :D :D Actually, I don't agree with the LFS, but keeping that monster clean is going to be a challenge, but hey... you know.. to help you out, my offer stands LOL

Jim

[ShinShin]

Jeffery,

As Jim stated, we differ very little in our thoughts on this topic. My problem with what many people answering questions on threads that ask about water conditions and discus, is too many people are told their water is just fine, when it isn't. Stability, they are told is what really matters. Well, that's not 100% correct. It doesn't matter how stable incorrect water parameters are, what is more important is the correct parameters. Now, when the correct parameters can't be met, then what? We live in the grey areas of which you spoke. That we do for us, not for the fish. To some dergee, small or large (and in some cases it is large) the discuis suffer. If given the chance to have optimum parameters for their discus water, then why not? I am willing to bet someone had the means to buy an R/O or DI unit and didn't think it was necessary because of erronious info they read, probabally from someone who received the same erronious information.

I use water straight from the tap because it is very good discus water, not great, but very good. Some people would kill for my tap water. I am completng a fishroom that will afford me some space for some 55gal water containers. I am then hoping to have perfect discus water. I know my discus will benefit from it even though they have very good water now.

Mat

[drlinden70]

Update.

I have scaled back to a 120 tall Acrylic aquarium.

RO unit is on order and should be here this week. Im going to start cycling the tank immediately with a monster Petrochromis, then once established switch over to RO water and take the pH down (and of course take the Petro out of the tank).

I have made a small acrylic overflow (similar to that used in wet/dry filters). This will be used to drop the refuse water into a header that I have running around my fish room/office.

Really excited to get some fish going.

Not sure which fish I will go with, wild or a more exotic strain. Suggestions?

Thanks all

David

[Cosmo]

David,

Does this you don't want to trade the 300 gal for the 90 :confused: :( :D

Wilds, Domestics, Exotics ?? Personal taste IMO. I have an assortment, some people prefer one strain or another... I look at it like buying art, buy what YOU like and what makes you happy :)

Jim

[drlinden70]

Yeah, sorry, couldnt go for the swap.

I was having a hard time fitting another 8 foot tank into my office/fishroom.

We will see how the discus interest develops.....it wont take long to convert my 300 gal Tang tank into a monster discus tank.

I also have a 150 Gal, which could be converted in a flash....one step at a time.

David

[Cosmo]

David, you must have a fascinating office :D

Jim

[drlinden70]

Fish are in.

I have purchased 7 WC Heckel discus.

RO unit is currently running on continuous drip, water is crystal clear.

Im keeping plants (Amazon swords) and a few cardinal tetras in the tank (keep these to check the water conditions were correct).

Some Pics

[drlinden70]

Another Pic

[Cosmo]

Love Heckels :) You've got a nice little group there, they should appreciate the soft acidic water too :)

Jim

[drlinden70]

Im probably going to add another 7 to the group to round it out to 14 in the 120 Gal.

thanks

[drlinden70]

Last one for now

[Howie_W]

Congratulations David...looking good! :)



Howie

[GulfCoastDiscus]

David came by the house today. It was nice meeting you David. Unfortunately 3 guys were ahead of him and bought the last 6 adults I had for sale. David did purchased a newly formed proven pair.
You're always welcome and thank you David.

dan

[drlinden70]

Well that didnt take long. 2 days after purchasing a pair of beautiful Discus from Dan of Gulf Coast, they spawned today. :D

BTW. Dan is a great guy and really loves his Discus!!! He gave me a lot of really good advice, and of course, sold me some great fish.

Quite a treat, some of the Tangs I have bred have taken 1 year to get into condition, with multiple failures.

Im on the slippery slope I think.....eyeing my 300 Gal tang tank for conversion.

David

[Carol_Roberts]

Congratulations, David - I hope you get wigglers :)