O.K. -- WHAT'S THE SECRET??? [Archive]

Spices

03-07-2005, 04:11 PM

Hi people,

I'm great at potted planting but not aquatic planting. But I have a crazy itching to make an aquatic plant tank. This idea hit me like a ton of bricks fallen on my head, thanks to seeing photos of GulfCoastDiscus (Dan's) photos of pond plants in one of his tanks.

Why can't I seem to have the leaves nice and green without the brown curling soft spots? I'm using the Flourite stuff in a glass with some glass marbles to keep vase from floating. I have two tube lights for a 75 gallon tank. Plus using a 20-gallon tank light ballast to make more lighting.

I add drops of liquid multi-vitamins once a week to reinstall the nourishments in the water. Filters are Emperor 400 and AquaClear 500 (sponge only). A small amount of white diamond crystals in the Emperor 400 to remove the ammonia.

Thanks!!

--angie--

jules

03-07-2005, 04:38 PM

The curling leaves and browning may be a light issue.
How are your root balls, nice and strong?
Do you know how much lighting you have in there?
I can't grow hardly anything in the 55 because the lighting is so low.
I have a 6700k and another similar.
Very low wattage/gallon. Only old reliable wendti bronze thrives in there.
Julie

sidra

03-07-2005, 06:38 PM

Hi Angie,

It does depend what type of lighting. If your plants are in the lower half of your tank, as many of our discus tanks tend to be deeper, you need lighting that will reach the bottom of the tank. I replaced the bulb in my tank with one meant for plants AND fish. With normal use, most flourescent type bulbs lose 50% of their power after 6 months so make sure bulb is the right one for plants and not too old.

Also just like fish, different plants thrive at different temperatures, PH and varying wattage per gallon of lighting.

If you tell me what plants you have, I may be able to tell you on some of them what their requirements are.

I specifically chose plants that have the same needs as my discus. My tank is only two months old and I have a whole new plant off my amazon sword that is 1/3 as big as it's parent plant. My plants have really taken hold lately. By chosing plants that have the same requirements as my fish, I reduced my options, but as much as I love my plants I love my discus more.

Oh, does your vitamin drops include potassium and iron? Very important for plants.

Also, becareful about fertilizing. Don't add more than absolutely necessary as too much may be harmful for your discus. And trim off any leaves with major damage, it will only rob the rest of the plant of it's strength.

Let me know what you have for plants and I'll try to help.

Kristen (aka Sidra)

Wahter

03-07-2005, 07:38 PM

It's not so hard... :D :D :D

Wahter

03-07-2005, 07:45 PM

Angie, you probably do need some more lighting - and don't assume duration can substitute intensity. I've got compact fluorescents over my tanks. On a 50 gallon tank I've got one 96 watt compact fluorescent (retrofit kit from www.ahsupply.com) plus two 36" normal output fluorescent lights (Zoomed.com's Ultrasun). That's roughly 3 watts of lighting per gallon; this allows me to grow even some of the more light hungry plants like Rotala macrandra and Rotala wallachi. I prefer the sword (Echinodorus) plants though.

It's important to picks plants which will grow well in your tank conditions AND those plants which are truly aquatic - too many bog plants are sold as aquatic plants and people wonder why they can't keep aquatic plants. I also have pressurized CO2 running into my tanks and I does with Tropica Mastergrow (tropica.com) liquid fertilizer. Hope that helps. Now you know how the spaceships in Star Wars fly! :D :D

Wahter

03-07-2005, 07:54 PM

Hi people,
Why can't I seem to have the leaves nice and green without the brown curling soft spots? I'm using the Flourite stuff in a glass with some glass marbles to keep vase from floating. I have two tube lights for a 75 gallon tank. Plus using a 20-gallon tank light ballast to make more lighting.

Usually 75 gallon tanks are 4 feet long; so the lights over the tank are usually the 48" which is 40 watts, typically a 20 gallon tank has a 24" light, which is 20 watts (or sometimes less) light. So your total lighting is probably 100 watts. That makes it only 1.333 watts per gallon. The general rule of thumb is 2-3 watts per gallon when keeping aquarium plants. You need to alter that rule toward more wattage on the smaller tanks and less on the larger tanks - because the depth doesn't change in proportion to the volume of the tanks from small to large (ie. a 180 gallon tank isn't usually twice as deep as a 90 gallon tank).

Those lotus (nymphaea) plants are very nice. Here's one of mine potted (from another tank) - it's in the right side of this photo.

sidra

03-07-2005, 08:06 PM

Is the lotus the red/gold plant behind the discus? That's a really nice plant (oh, and nice fish too!)

Spices

03-07-2005, 09:52 PM

AWESOME WALTER...TOTALLY GROOVY! I want to make another tank like that. Exactly potted aquatic plants with a few corys and tetras in it. Wow. I like your tank setup very very much. The plants look very healthy and green.

Well, it seems like what everyone's saying is the same ... Perhaps why Jules and I cannot grow green plants could be the lighting arrangement. So I assume with every tank purchase that I must replace the ballast for a new compact lighting system with heavy wattage output. Am I correct at saying this?

The type of plant I want to keep is a bog plant for sure: day lily blooms in daylight so it needs high lighting just for a few hours. The flower pods burst and were pretty blue but died and turned brown within minutes after it opened. Also, the roots looked healthy when I got it but now looks like it's suffering (not consuming lighting). Do I take it out and wrap it up in wet towels until I get the new lighting ballast and bulbs? Or should I chuck it and start again with a new plant? Thanks.

P.S. Tank temps stay at 82 or 83 Farrenheit. -angie-

Cosmo

03-07-2005, 09:59 PM

Wahter..

Beautifu pics... tanks.. and fish :) Amazing :)

Jim

Robin764

03-07-2005, 10:08 PM

Yup...beautiful!! But then I already tole ya so a time or too Wahter:P I have plants on order, and pots ready....If mine turn out half as nice, both my discus and I will be happy:)

Robin

funkyfish

03-07-2005, 10:26 PM

i have a green lotus in my planted tank little over a foot tall and bushed real nice i have a red one to but it not as big as the one u have are the reds a smaller plant or what?

hexed

03-07-2005, 11:45 PM

Ok,
I have to ask this because I have this problem ;)
How do you clean the pots? I got food stuck in the plants which my discus could not reach and the water inside the pots was dark brown. I had to remove the potted plants and rinse the substrat to clean it and my plants did not like that at all. I ended up tossing them all but my tiger lotus. Now my lotus would throw shoots that reached the top of the tank, then the leaves would rot away and it would die down. I could not figure that out at all. Right now they are at about 3 inches high. I do know now from reading this thread that lighting was a problem, but how do you clean what's inside the potted pots without removing the plants?

Wahter

03-08-2005, 02:20 AM

Ok,
I have to ask this because I have this problem ;)
How do you clean the pots? I got food stuck in the plants which my discus could not reach and the water inside the pots was dark brown.

<snip>

how do you clean what's inside the potted pots without removing the plants?

I have these scavengers:

Khuli loach - Pangio (Acanthophthalmus) kuhli
Queen Arabesque Catfish - Hypancistrus sp. L-260
Siamese Algae Eater - Crossocheilus siamensis
Panda Cory Catfish - Corydoras panda

They go and eat the food that settles on the gravel in the pots (and what lands on the bottom of the tank too). I also have some snails in there - I'd rather not, but they came with the plants. :angry:

Spices

03-08-2005, 10:05 AM

Walter,

Do the water plants (after pruning) restore well? Can I keep the water lily in a wet towel until I get the lighting fixed? I have the regular fluorescent bulbs (two 48") since now two years. It wasn't changed; i didn't realize they lose luster after six months. I'm going to order a new system this week. Can I keep the water plants wrapped up until I can get this lighting corrected, will it die? Thanks!! -ang-

P.S. Hex: Walt is right! Those scavengers climb well into crevices of the plant pots very well and WILL clean the pots well by eating those micro-foods. I had about 11 clown loaches that kept my tank floor cleaned.

hexed

03-08-2005, 03:00 PM

Do any of you have pics of these scavengers? The reason why I ask is what they are called here (thread) are not the same as what the stores call them LOL. Somewhere on the threads was some kind of algea eater that does not attack the discus and and I wrote the name down and my LFS said the suppliers never heard of them. Then 3 weeks later they had one in but called something else and wasn't for sale - go figure that one out LOL!
I have a bishir eel in one of my tanks, gets along great with my discus and he tollerates the temp and pH extremely well (I think it's because he breathes air from the surface) and he was listed as a dinosaur eel at Petsmart (I saved him because they had him in with convicts and he was getting ripped apart).
The last plant I purchased was water sprite at Petco, when I got home and put it in the tank a pollywag (sp) was in it, no snails LOL. He is doing great has hind legs now, when he is a frog he will be moved back where he came from Petco LOL.
There is a Jebo compact light strip on Ebay it comes with 4 - 55 watt bulbs (2 10,000k super daylight and 2 ultra actinic) for $65 plus shipping. Is this good for a 55 gallon tank? I do not know what actinic bulbs are for I just know they are blue in color ;)

Wahter

03-08-2005, 03:06 PM

Walter,

Do the water plants (after pruning) restore well? Can I keep the water lily in a wet towel until I get the lighting fixed? I have the regular fluorescent bulbs (two 48") since now two years. It wasn't changed; i didn't realize they lose luster after six months. I'm going to order a new system this week. Can I keep the water plants wrapped up until I can get this lighting corrected, will it die? Thanks!! -ang-

A wet towel? Can't you just stick the plant in a spare bucket?

One of my friends who has discus in a planted 75 gallon tank has this light fixture:

Coralife Freshwater Aqualight - double linear strip (http://esuweb.com/cardfile.asp?ItemNumber=53116&IDProductRelationship=254)

Not sure of the cost though, but she can grow just about any plant! :D

Spices

03-08-2005, 04:59 PM

A wet towel? Can't you just stick the plant in a spare bucket?

One of my friends who has discus in a planted 75 gallon tank has this light fixture:

Coralife Freshwater Aqualight - double linear strip

Not sure of the cost though, but she can grow just about any plant! :D

Yeah, I've heard of Coralife Double Aqualight. It is exactly what I'm thinking on getting. The other stuff is pretty costly (MHO and VHO). I'm surprised at how costly those are. But in whole it may be worth the investment as I'm beginning to feel for the aquatic plantlife.

You know when I say a wet towel I'm referring to the treatment of wet layers of cloth to lay under the aquatic plant while being exposed in open air for light. If I leave an aquatic plant in a bucket with very low grade light it will turn mushy (hence not enough lighting). ;) I didn't mean wrapping it up in towel. ;D Sorry for not explaining. I do a lot of potted planting and have salvage many plants but I'm baffled at salvaging the aquatic plants.

Well, I will toss them out anyhow. They did mushed up quite badly. No roots were salvageable. They quickly turned brown (making the tank water brown and soft). I'll start up on another tank with just aquatic plants. I really want to get it right.
-Angie-

SantaFeDiscus

03-09-2005, 03:44 AM

Hi Angie!
Just wanted to chime in. Wahter your tank is AWSOME! I have just totally given up on water plants. I love them and they look great, but I hate killing one after another. Some day I will get back into them but for now I am working on my "reds". Hope you can figure it out cause I know those discus of yours will look great with a bunch of greenery! :)
Fred

chirohorn

03-09-2005, 04:46 PM

Walter, the tank looks superb!!!

Wahter

03-09-2005, 05:33 PM

Do any of you have pics of these scavengers? The reason why I ask is what they are called here (thread) are not the same as what the stores call them LOL.

Khuli loach - Pangio (Acanthophthalmus) kuhli
check: http://www.loaches.com/index.html

Queen Arabesque Catfish - Hypancistrus sp. L-260
check: http://www.planetcatfish.com/

Siamese Algae Eater - Crossocheilus siamensis
check: http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html

Panda Cory Catfish - Corydoras panda
check: http://www.planetcatfish.com/

There is a Jebo compact light strip on Ebay it comes with 4 - 55 watt bulbs (2 10,000k super daylight and 2 ultra actinic) for $65 plus shipping. Is this good for a 55 gallon tank? I do not know what actinic bulbs are for I just know they are blue in color ;)

Some people say a little bit of actinic helps, but I've never used them and in my opinion/ experience, they are not needed for good plant growth. Actinics are not always blue; they are used for keeping corals in reef tanks. All of my lights are around 6700k.

F8VRT-HBY

03-09-2005, 10:17 PM

Spices

03-10-2005, 08:59 AM

Wahter- Have you ever felt your corys?? I know this is a weird question but i read on a webpage to be carefull around some corys because the fins are sharp,
well i have two peppered corrys and two that are similar to the pandas and the ones that are similar to the pandas have very sharp fins(i had to feel one, i jsut had to, i know i shouldn't have) i wounder if they could cut a discus by accident or if the sharp fins are to protect them from predaters.

and just so i don't rob the thread, I have a HO light i got for $100 roughly.

Its made by Current it has two 65W bulbs that are 10K + actinic (the blue bulbs) the bulbs are the neat kind with the white on one side and blue on the other AND it has a build in night light that looks awsome at night.

Im not using it at the moment because i don't have any plants and i don't want to give my discus a tan :p (I was originally going to do a planted pike tank)

Hi,

Yeah, you're right. Corys (just like Discus and many other fish) have spikes that can rip your skin! As small scavengers I would think having spikey fins like that is their battle armour against big hungry fish. ;)

In re: of Current Double 65W, where did you find this? Is this a system that includes the housing (ballast)? Currently, I've ordered some lights. I'm going to pick them up either today or tomorrow. Thanks. -angie-

pugfiend

03-11-2005, 09:45 PM

hexed

03-11-2005, 11:48 PM

Wahter,
Thanks for the info,
Frank

Doug A

04-05-2005, 08:32 AM

Are actinic bulbs okay for planted tanks? i'm looking at a power compact with 2 10000K bulbs and 2 actinic bulbs but I thought I couldn't use the actinic with a planted tank. Actually it would be easier if actinic helps because that's what the fixture comes with and I would have to pay extra for the 6700K bulbs. Also is more than 2-3 WPG bad? The fixture I'm looking at is 260 watts and I have a 55 gallon tank.
I'm sorry to ask so many questions but I'm kind of new to planted tanks.
Do Kulli Loaches do anything for algae? I'd like some algae eaters but don't really like the Siamese algae eaters. I love the kulli loaches though.

I wouldn't use the Actnic bulbs for a planted tank. As Wahter said they are used in reef tanks for corals. Use a mixture of 10,000K and 6500K bulbs.

You really don't need more then 3 WPG, at 260 Watts over a 55 would be close to 5 WPG. You could use it just a little overkill. Anything over 2.5 WPG and you will need to use a co2 system for the plants to be healthy unless all the plants have floating leaves like water lillys. Water lillies take the co2 from the air not the water.

Angie
If you have a window that gets good sunlight :sun: , you could put the lilly in a bucket of water and keep it by the window in the sun. Usually a window that faces south gets the most amount of sun.

Very nice plants Wahter. :thumbsup:

Doug

Spices

04-05-2005, 11:54 AM

I wouldn't use the Actnic bulbs for a planted tank. As Wahter said they are used in reef tanks for corals. Use a mixture of 10,000K and 6500K bulbs.

You really don't need more then 3 WPG, at 260 Watts over a 55 would be close to 5 WPG. You could use it just a little overkill. Anything over 2.5 WPG and you will need to use a co2 system for the plants to be healthy unless all the plants have floating leaves like water lillys. Water lillies take the co2 from the air not the water.

Angie
If you have a window that gets good sunlight :sun: , you could put the lilly in a bucket of water and keep it by the window in the sun. Usually a window that faces south gets the most amount of sun.

Very nice plants Wahter. :thumbsup:

Doug

Thanks Doug!!

I didn't realize that I could have done that. But that would mean too that I would need to add a heater to that bucket, correct? Since they are tropical warm water plants. But I tossed them! It turned to mulch (very soft and mushy). I couldn't save them since I needed $$$ to get the Compact Orbit lighting system. Oh, well.

Here's the latest (last night) image of the start of my new planted tank. Walter really has lovely tanks (plural??).

I'm curious...I don't have a co2 system. I hope I don't need it since I do have a lot of fish (i think) in my tank to give off the co2. Uhm?

ping

04-05-2005, 12:24 PM

Looking good Angie,
How do you put the plants together ? any clear pic of the plants ?

Cheers,
Ronny

Spices

04-05-2005, 04:42 PM

Hi Ronny,

Here is a collage shot of images of the glass bowl with marbles and the Caboomba plants. All plants are installed bunched up in a plant clip and placed in the marbles. I will be istalling liquid vitamins once a week so plants get the nourishments missed in foods. Thanks for the compliments! :angel:

*Angie*

Doug A

04-05-2005, 05:21 PM

Angie

If you only have a couple of plants you should be fine without the co2. The more plants you have (like in Walters tank) the more co2 is needed. What do you mean by "vitamins"? You should use plant fertalizer for aquariums. I use Kent freshwater plant fertalizer. You might be better off with something like "flourite" gravel instead of marbles. The plant you have looks nice and healthy. How long have you had it in the tank?

Doug

Spices

04-06-2005, 11:53 AM

Hi Doug,

I add liquid vitamins to the tank since I'm not using the fluorite product. I may (just may) add a few spoonfuls of it in the glass bowl just to sustain the roots with nourishments and then add the marbles above it. I only had it now for about four days. The liquid vitamins can be found in any fish shop; should be found in the liquid plant fertilizer section of your fish shop. **Ang**

tpl*co

04-11-2005, 04:11 PM

Wahter

04-12-2005, 08:30 PM

Wahter,

How did you grow such a beautiful lotus???? Everytime I try them they die on me (or something eats them or both). Maybe my light is too low but I can only grow anubias, java fern and crypt. retrospirilus in my tank.

Probably the lighting in your tanks is too low - I have roughly 2-3 watts of lighting per gallon on my tanks.

Howie_W

04-13-2005, 09:56 AM

Yep...the lotus' are light hogs. :)

Walter,

Great looking tank...excellent job! :thumbsup: Question for you regarding the Mastergrow; How often are you changing water in the tank, and consequently dosing with the fertilizer. Depending upon your hardness, I know you can reduce the measurement, and vice versa. Ultimately I tend to treat fretilizer as it is intended; a supplement. I ask mostly as I'm interested in hearing people's results wth it.

Howie

JeffreyRichard

04-13-2005, 04:25 PM

I could not grow plants UNTIL I intensified the light ... I use two 110 watt VHO bulbs over a 55 gallon ... I recommend at least 200 watts. That will cure many plant ills.

Don_Lee

04-13-2005, 06:17 PM

220 watts of light over a 55 gallon tank is quite alot of light IMO. I have achieved good results with half of that light, even less. If you have good substrate and put some fert in the water, choose "easier" plants, I do not think you need 4 watts of light per gallon. IME too much light is almost worse than not enough, with all the algae blooms and greenwater one can expect...

JMO,

Don

shalu

04-13-2005, 10:04 PM

Don is right. At 4 wpg, a full blown planted tank with pressurized CO2 and high nutrient dosing is almost a must, or you will look at an algae farm. Vitamin pills certainly won't cut it, sorry can't resist :)

Spices

04-14-2005, 12:18 PM

Hi,

I am experiencing once again the algae bloom. Now my set up is different from what I used to have it as. I'm using an Orbit 260 watt system. This comes with four (double barrel) lights. Two of which are Actinic 460 ns and the other two are white 130 watt each, giving me a total of 260 watt.

The tank is 75 gallons. So with 4 watts per gallon that would mean I need 300 watts instead of 260?

My lights are on for 5 to 8 hours a day. Should I cut the number of hours into half to lessen the algae bloom?

Then also, too, I just picked up the Vortex XL that I plan to use instead of the UV lighting. If I do not absolutely have to cut hours of lighting then I gather the Vortex XL will do the job of ridding the green water/algae bloom, correct?

Now one thing I've noticed in getting the algae bloom, I didn't have it at first installation of the Orbit lighting system which has been about a month and a half now. The algae bloom began when I started medicating the tank. I've been using a product which has medicine in the food. I use it about four times per day but I also vacuum up the left overs and add a little bit of fresh water in the tank. At the time of five days I have not used any charcoal/carbon in filters (used only sponge filter of AC500). Currently, the tank is filled with light green hues of algae.

I'm going to begin the Vortex XL system tonite or this weekend.
*A*