the breeder has there discus ph 6.0?? help Thank You

[nimo69]

undefinedI have a question for every one? Should I have have my Ph same and the temperature has the breeder? MY PH IS 7.1 and I get discus buffer to 5.5---6.8 should I use it ? :) :balloon: :D

[HTown Discus]

There are differing opinions on this, but I will give you the best advise that I have seen.

Going up in pH is much easier on the fish than going down. Buffers or any other chemicals that alter pH is almost always a bad idea. Stable pH, even if over 8, should be your goal. There is a thread on here that mentions getting your fish out of the nasty bag water and into your tank water as quickly as possible. This has been solid advise for me thus far. I have received 3 shipments from separate breeders with much lower pH than mine, have gotten them directly into my tank as quickly as possible, and they have all been happy and eating within an hour.

[Cosmo]

Don't use Discus Buffer.. read the label.. contains phosphates :( HTown gave you excellent advise
JIm

[funkyfish]

my ph is 8 the breeder i get mine from has mid 6 for ph never had a prob
keep it stable and lots of clean water
good luck

[ShinShin]

Its been stated many times on various forums that going from a lower pH to a higher pH is easily toleretaed by discus and higher to lower is more tramatic. Does anyone know where or who stated this? I remember it being mentioned once and all of a sudden everyone is giving this piece of advice to anyone inquiring about pH.

The reason I mention this is that in a recent column, Wattley seems to have an opposite view based on his considerable experience.

Mat

[raglanroad]

That is very interesting. I hate information repeated endlessly without knowing who said it and why. It is called myth.I think this is what is up with it. I have asked everyone I heard say something about pH "shock" for any proof it exists, from anyone, anywhere, in any book, paper, experiment, whatever. Could not find even one, that did not alter the TDS. .Does it sound true if no one has a single instance?

Many people have shown that pH shock does not exist. Among them ,and one of the first to demonstrate it was in a book called Rivulins of the Old World, where Scheel plopped fish into a different pH, of up to 3 whole units, with absolutely no ill effect shown. This has been done many times, by many people, but it is rarely discussed by aquarists, who rely on hearsay repeated over and over in books, with never any proof .

The problem is that when people see pH"'shock", they are seeing a change in T.D.S. The change in TDS is because when pH is adjusted, commonly it is done by methods that alter GH, KH, and in all, TDS.

The reason a switch to lower values is usually seen as worse, is because when the TDS is lower, the osmotic pressure drives water into the cells, to equalize. The cells can burst. When TDS is higher, the cells dehydrate, getting a little shrunken, much better than bursting.

Does Wattley have any proofs provided or reasoning behind the statement?

Of course, the wrong parameters for a fish are usually long term problems.
Very different than the pH "shock" theory, where a sudden change in pH is supposed to kill fish. Another reason for the supposition is that people sometimes see dead fish, after pH crash. Suspect dead biofilter, and ammonia , followed by the hobbyist's reactions to the pH crash as the reason, not pH.

[ShinShin]

No. The article said, and I quote -

"This raising of the pH must be done carefully, because I've always found that discus can take a lowering of pH much easier han they can take a raising of pH."

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Shin,
FMHE, I believe extreme change to a lower Ph hurts them due the the acid. I done it and it seems to burn their gills. The fish will literally try to jump out of the tank.

The going up in Ph does not seem to bother them.

[Howie_W]

Matt,

As devil's advocate, you bring up a valid point! :) We all tend to generalize basic information to the point that it becomes muted.

Changes in pH values, moving in both directions have the potential to cause problems.

As Dan mentioned, larger drops in pH mean higher acidity, and potential damage to soft tissue.

At the same time, Wattley's comments make perfect sense; As pH levels rise, levels of ammonium (NH4) are replaced by higher concentrations of ammonia (NH3)...which is much more toxic to the fish. The longer the exposure to the higher toxicity levels, the quicker you go from breathing problems, to the fish going belly up.

There's also other factors to consider that will vary in each persons set-up; filtration, stocking density, and temperature.



Howie

[raglanroad]

Shinshin.
This is my take on Jack Wattley's statement: suppose , as is common, you have your tank at7.5, for "stability " reasons. Which would be better- a rise in pH to 10.5, or a drop to 4.5 ? Suppose you had your tank at 8. What would be better- a rise to 10, or a drop to 6? hehehe I think I just convinced myself. Jack is correct, for most hobbyists' circumstances.

[ShinShin]

This is good ;), a discussion. Any other input? Sometimes it's just nice to talk about a subject a bit instead of answering the same old quetions all the time.

Mat

[raglanroad]

I think if the acidity is still within the normal "aquaria for discus" range, why any tissues would get burned, is a subject for debate. Of course, as you watch acid eat through steel plate, it would be able to eat fish also. But we are not really talking about that, are we? Nor about alkalinity so extreme as you see by the skeleton hand on a bottle of bleach. This is why it is important to take real examples, not just theory using undefined circumstances.

[Carol_Roberts]

My water stabilizes at 7.8, GH is 12. Back when I was a beginner I did 50% water changes straight from the tap (pH 6.6) and/or used acid to lower the pH in the change water to 6.0 trying to make perfect discus water. After these water changes the discus would turn very dark and huddle in the back of the tank. Slime coat would peel off. It would take a couple of hours for the pH to stablilize (raise) and then the discus would lighten up and start to swim in the middle of the tank again. AS soon as I figured out to aerated the water, to raising the pH this behavior stopped.

I like to have my quaranine tank close to the pH and GH of the seller just like I try to feed the foods they are used to.

In my experience new discus can go into my 7.8 pH water pretty easily even if they arrive in much lower pH water. In my experience my discus do not like going from 7.8 to 7.3 in the time it takes to do a water change.

[raglanroad]

Carol, sounds like a lot of chemical changes were going on there, not just pH. There are just so many variables changing around in the method you describe doing in the past..gas releasing, GH and KH changing, etc. Lots of reactions, not just a simple change in pH alone.
Altums have the reputation of being as sensitive to water conditions as any , yet when I do a proper water change, using RO, and mineral additives, they show none of those symptoms. They charge around looking for food if they aren't fighting. 3 minutes after I vacuum all around them, remove and squeeze out the sponge filter, etc. I keep them at pH 5.5, GH 3. I do nothing for KH, let it ride the GH. Dale Jordan ( Heckel guy) instructed me on how to treat the Altums he sold me. He wasn't wrong, that's for sure. Since then, I have lowered the parameters still further, from the starting instructions of pH 6.5-7.5, and GH 60- 90 ppm.
You mention the quarantine tank, which was the original question. So it would be a safe thing to do, to change the parameters slowly, if desired. I would not change the parameters all quickly , either. But TDS, not pH or GH, is the vital factor. Suppose the water had a certain pH and GH, but had additional salt. Suddenly changing to no salt, would not affect the pH or GH, but would certainly give stress. Osmotic pressure is important, and TDS gives a better indication of this than GH. pH within normal aquaria levels has been shown many times to have NO noticable effect short term. Whereas pH fluctuation has not been shown ever to have ANY effect short term. Is there some research or test that has ever shown pH fluctation to have any effect?Believe me, I had a laugh at myself (for being a 35 year believer)when I found this out, that there is no test result or research showing pH fluctuation has any effect. Maybe you could give me another laugh by proving this false. : ) I have tried , could not find a single reference.
Dave