Please Help Sick Discus

[Kristin43]

Hi,
I have learned alot from this forum since getting into Discus 8 months ago. I have 6 2.5 to 3" juvis in a nearly BB 55 gal. They were all doing well til two developed symptoms of worms, white stringy feces etc., I treated with Parasite Clear, as I always have maintained the Salt/gal ratio recommended hear, and do daily W/c of 25 to 50% based on water tests.

I got rid of the white feces, and they were doing better, then WHAM they turned dark and faced down 45% and displayed symptoms of Flukes, so I was baffled since Parasite Clear is for Fluke as well as worms. I upped the Salt and did 50% water change last night, and added RID ICK this morning, and am worried that I am creating a nightmare by using too much medication.

There are varied opinions out there on that course of action as you all know. Could this be bacterial and not fluke after all? And if so what should be my next move?

Water Params are
Nitrites are 0
Nitrates are 0
Amonia is 0
PH 7.4
Alkalinity is 300
Water is Soft
Temperature is 88

I found my discus did better at 86 to 88 degrees after I first got them.
Please help, do not want to keep stressing them with different medications.

Thanks :(

[jeep]

, and am worried that I am creating a nightmare by using too much medication.



I agree. IMO, the best line of defense inthis case is heat and salt (2 TBS per 10g). I like Parasite Clear. Great choice! If your discus had flukes, one treatment is not enough. Flukes in a tanks are like fleas on a cat. You must break the cycle, and this usually mens a 21 day treatment with Prazi or some other fluke med.

I have use Parasite Clear on a 21 day treatment, dosing at regular strength every other day until the 21 days is up, doing a water change before each treatment. If you do this, keep a close eye on them and stop the med is things look bad...

[ShinShin]

Hi Kristin,

Reading your post, I couldn't help but to notice you said your discus did better at 86-88F than 84-86 when you first got them. The reason I am puzzled is they were fine in the beginning and sick now.

I don't think the extra heat had anything to do with the illness, but believe the higher heat is unneccesary. Many people think that because their discus are more active at higher temps that they are "happy". The reason is higher temps raise their metabolism "forcing" them to be more active. This is not necessary good. There is really no reason to have the temps above 84F except for treating certain ailments, hexamita being one such disease.

You stated - "as I always have maintained the Salt/gal ratio" - , what exactly do you mean here? Do you maintain your discus in salted water on a routine basis?

I have found salt to be of no use for treating flukes, although some folks do so. Flukes lay eggs and most meds don't kill the eggs, so treating every three days for 3-4 treatments is recommended. I don't use prazi for flukes. It may have a 21 day protocal. I don't know. There are other faster acting chemicals to use.

What worm symptoms are you experiencing?

Mat

[Kristin43]

Yes, I have kept a tablespoon of salt per 10gal in my tank since I began reading up on them. Helps to promote a healthy slim coat I am told.

Now tonight, most of them are hiding, varied in color, some dark and some very light, I just tested the water again and it is normal on Nitrite and on Nitrate, I did a 60% water change 4 hours ago because they all seemed very stressed.

I have added no salt to the tank, as a replacement. I did use a water stabelizer that is suppose to help keep PH and alkalinity stable, as well as condition the water, it also contains nitrifying bacteria, thought this might be a good idea, incase the RID ICK had hurt the bio filter.

I am not sure what to do next, I know that I do not wish to lose any of these guys, I have become quite attached..... :)

Any advice from senior members would be appreciated at this point. As for the ? regarding the temperature. My discus were kept at 82 when I got them from the lfs, and after reading about them I knew this was too low. They began eating and doing better for me when I kept them at 86. I raised to 88 when they began having signs of parasites, the stringy poops and spitting out their food, and treated with Parasite Clear.

One other thing I notice about them, when I turn out the lights, and turn them back on in the AM, the fish are dark and sluggish for about 20minutes, then they begin swimming and get their color back, why would this be?

Thanks for all your help,
Kristin

[Barb Newell]

Hi Kristin, how are you? Some questions; Do you age your water -- they may be getting stressed if your ph is not the same as the tank ph? Why are you using a water stabilizer and what is it? Are any of their gills clamped now, are they rubbing or scratching on anything? If they have flukes, they'll need a 21 day treatment preferably with formaldehyde 37% or some use QuickCure or Parasite Clear.


I raised to 88 when they began having signs of parasites, the stringy poops and spitting out their food, and treated with Parasite Clear.
Do they still have white stringy poop?

When the lights are out discus seem to go into a trance like state, lose their eye colour -- maybe that's how they sleep:). I keep a small nightlight on in the room so that they're not spooked with a bright light coming in the morning.

It's not necessary to keep discus in salt all of the time.

I'd do at least 50% w/c daily, make sure the walls of the tank are squeeky clean, make sure there's no food stuck in your filters... bioload may be high.

Barb

[Kristin43]

HI Barb:

I was told that a stablizer would help keep from having drastic changes in the PH. It is made by Tetra and is called Easy Balance.

When I do my water changes it is not with aged water, have always used my tap water, but I test both before and after the tank is refilled. I always test the water from the tap as well, both for temp and for parameters. They read the same as far as I can tell.

There are two with a clamped gil, the frist two that made me think they had flukes, they are also pumping hard from the other side, they seem to tip downward as well, I have some Life Bearer? will that suffice for the gill flukes?

I have the most beautiful Cobalt and I do not want anything to happen to him, he is nto showing symptoms, but none of them are eating well at the moment, not like they were. The white poop isgone, I have not seen it in well over two weeks.

I have not used Epsom Salt yet? Should I?

Thanks for all of your expert advice, they are not light tonight they are all dark again...LOL Just wish I knew what makes them change back and forth is all.

[ShinShin]

Epson salts are used for constipation and that doesn't appear to be a problem at this point. I wouldn't add it to the water.

84F is plenty warm for discus.

Using salt ought to be used as a dip or short term bath only. It is used way too much by way too many people on the forums as a "tonic/cure all" remedy.

I don't know the parameters of your tap water, but I'll bet the additive you are using is doing more harm than good in your situation. Test your pH in your tank and then your tap. Mine are the same and that allows me to fill directly from my tap to my tank. Yours may be different making it best for you to age it 12 - 24 hrs with air flow to it. If you need to lower your pH after aging, I would suggest perchloric or muratic acid. You need to know your water's buffering capacity before using acids to prevent a serious pH crash.

The ick medication you used is probabally a malachite green/formalin combination is is great for external parasites such as protozoans but is of no use on internal worm infestations that you mentioned in your first post. I didn't see any symptoms myself and wondered why you thought your discus had worms.

[Kristin43]

The reason I felt they had worms, was they had white stringy poops and were spitting out there food, and hiding alot facing the back of my tank and hiding out. From everything I could find to read, these were symptoms of internal flagellets, so I treated with Parasite clear, the day after this treatment, I noticed one of my cobalts was clamped and breathing heavy from the other side, and nose down a bit, this I am told is signs of flukes.

I have stopped the salt, and have always done between 40 and 50% w/c a day since getting my discus 8 months ago. So I shall continue doing so, the cobalt that was the first one to have clamped gill is looking bad tongiht, very light in color and having balance issues.

Everyone else seems tobe holding their own at the moment. Not sure if I should just leave well enough alone and see what happens or not. I am a tad stressed, don't want to lose all of these guys.

still not eating as well as before all of this happened. God how I have become attached to them..LOL I watch them like I used to watch my kids...LOL.

Going to do my w/c and see how they are after. Thanks for all of your help.

[ShinShin]

Classic Hex symptoms that you diagnosed correctly. Perhaps they are not quite under control. This is a condition where high heat is beneficial, as high as 94-95F.

I am glad to see you have adopted such a great water change regime. That will pay off in the long run with healthier discus.

I have not used the med you mentioned. I believe I have been told it contains metro, prazi, and NaCl. Is this correct? For hex I have always used metro. Prazi will elimenate tapeworms, but that is not what you are describing. Discus with tapewrms are ravenous. They eat like pigs but don't grow much and appear to be healthy in every other way.

You could try formalin for flukes or Fluke Tabs.

Mat

[Kristin43]

Finished my 50% water change and also changed the charcoal in my penguin biowheel since it was probably loaded with all of the meds. They seem to be a bit better since doing this.

I think I will see how they fair over night tonight and do another 50% tomorrow and then go from there. I hate to medicate them again, since they have been under such stress the past couple of days.

I also know, I need to if my cobalt really has flukes, no one is scratching or rubbing at the moment, and have not seen that for the past couple of days either.

Thanks for everything, will let you know of any changes and how they get along.

Kristin :)

[Barb Newell]

Hi Kristin. Do you run charcoal all the time? Maybe it's leaching something back into the water that is irritating the discus. It's not a good idea to run charcoal with discus. Try removing it and adding a sponge to your penguin. I cut up AquaClear sponges and place them in the penguins with a pre-filter sponge on the intake tube.

Barb

[Kristin43]

Where do you get the Aqua Clear Sponges?

Thanks for all of your help.

I lost the two that were sick this afternoon. The others seem to be doing ok at the moment, not as stressed as before.

I worry that I might create Discus soup if I play with meds to much.

[Carol_Roberts]

You can buy them online at www.petsolutions.com or at many of hte larger fish stores

[Kristin43]

We do not have large fish stores here, although we have a PetCO and we also have Petsmart. Other than that, we don't have anything else.

I will look for them, I don't know what I am actually looking for...LOL

Thanks

Kristin :o

[Barb Newell]

Hi Kristin, Petsmart should have them. Just ask for a sponge filter for the Aquaclear. It's just a white sponge, comes in 3 or 4 sizes.
How are your fish?
Barb

[Kristin43]

They are doing better, the water changes have definately helped I think, as well as not adding anything to their water. I still worry that perhaps the flukes are still there, though I have not seen any symptoms from the rest. I lost two total, during this nightmare....:(

I reallyam attached to these guys. I cannot get over how much better they are eating, than from before I medicated them for the Parasites ie worms. It is like night and day.

Thanks again for everyone's help and advice. It is always nice to know there are folks out there willing to share their knowledge with others who are tyring to get started in the hobby. There certainly are varied opinions on DISCUS...LOL

Kristin