No such thing as quarantine

[lauris]

Rainy day here so the painting project that had me playing hooky from work is on hold. Have been reading the unfortunate experience of Duncan and the loss of his stock and the various responses that keep stressing quarantine as the key. What follows are some random musing about quarantine. I certainly do not have any answers but thought perhaps this could spark a discussion of quarantine, quarantine procedures, acclimitization, medication, what have you. I do not claim to have any particular insight, I have been keeping discus for a few years. I rarely kill them, i rarely spawn them. In my tanks the round healthy ones I have grown out are steadily outnumbering the triangular runts I grew out before. I have bought from probably six sources in four years and have 'quarantined' to one degree or another. Sometimes my quarantine procedure involves crossing the fingers on both my hands (although I have never just dumped new stock in the same tank with old), sometimes it involves as much as a month of vigilance in keeping things separate. In the interest of full disclosure, I have bought fish from Cary, Jeff, Danny Ng, and Hans and from at least three or four local breeders--everyone uniformly has provided healthy and sassy fish. Usually a period of months between major purchases. In any case....

As to quarantine:

1. If you keep the new (or sick) fish in separate tanks, use separate nets, hoses (both fill and drain), and never ONE TIME put your hand in their tank after being in another tank without bleaching it, you are NOT maintaining quarantine. Water droplets will travel from one tank to another readily. It does not need to splash, it can migrate as vapor particles. Maybe you have seen the various news shows that have the sweeps week specials where they test a toothbrush and find urine on it. If you have a toothbrush in your bathroom uncovered, it has urine on it. The droplets vaporize and travel from tank to tank or toilet to toothbrush. A humidifier pulls water out of the air that would otherwise go tank to tank. What is described as airborne transmission of this or that disease is actually liquid particles travelling from person to person in exhalations or from sneezing or coughing. My point is that physically keeping tanks separate and being vigilant about contamination does not equal quarantine. To a large degree, the water in one tank has the same properties as every other in your fishroom.

2. If you keep the new fish in a separate room, in a separate building, and change clothes and shower and go through a foot bath and a negative pressure chamber and electrically charge particles and hepa-vacuum them away you are getting closer to quarantine but you are not there yet. I have an agricultural background and in my job have dealt with issues arising out of the construction of 'clean rooms' where computer discs or components are manufactured and these things are utilized in those arenas to minimize contamination. The way we keep discus (high stocking levels, massive feeding, accelerated growth) mimics how chickens or hogs are grown out. Many a hog operation has been wiped out even though there are foot baths, showers, antibacterial misting of workers, no other hogs within miles, etc. A 'clean room' is only relatively so, there are still plenty of contaminants that make it through.

So there is no such thing as quarantine. As well, how many of us have separate facilities. I can believe some importers might keep new stock in a separate building, but how many hobbyists can or do. If they are good, they try to keep them in separate tanks and minimize the use of common hoses, etc. but that is clearly not quarantine. Saying someone has not kept his new fish quarantined is fairly meaningless if there is really is no such thing and/or it is impossible for 95% of hobbyists to really even attempt for any period of time.

Is there a difference between dumping fish in the same tank versus slopping water by the bucket from one tank to another versus sharing hoses versus water droplet migration? There must be. I certainly accept the common wisdom that 'quarantine' makes a difference. But it logically does not make sense that what you are doing is isolating one group from another. That is impossible (see above), and eventually they are mixed anyway. If they are both healthy when you start, they are both healthy six or eight or two weeks later when you mix them.

Is what is happening then gradual acclimitization? Does droplet migration introduce new pathogens or whatever to each group gradually enough that they build resistance? Should this be the goal then, acclimitization rather than quarantine.

What role should medication play? Does it make sense to dose the new and existing stock as a matter of routine as part of the quarantine/acclimitization process? It would seem that there might be something to that. Or is it counter-productive? I think some sellers medicate stock as a matter of course before sale. Is it the same for domestic as for imports? Are there different regimens for asian versus european imports? Should we be mimicing that medication in existing stock when we make a purchase? Complementary medication of some sort to counter what the new discus might throw as a result of the medication they just underwent? Is the medication of the stock before being sold to us adding another stress to shipping? Are there only certain diseases that can travel by water droplet migration? Do we know what they are? Can existing stock be treated prophylactically?

As you see, a lot of questions, no answers. I am quite sure there are probably no definitive answers, but to lay everything at the feet of mythical 'quarantine' is outdated. More or different or better information might let us make more informed decisions as to when or how to mix fish. No fish is truly separate.

[Greg Richardson]

Thanks for your very interesting post of thoughts. A lot to think about there!

[DarkDiscus]

Very interesting post.

[jaydoc]

Lauris,
I am a practicing physician and I agree, to some extent with your post. Qaurantine in the setting of aquariums is similiar to sterile technique in the medical setting. It has been proven numerous times in research that all of our attempts to maintain sterility ( for instance, in surgery) do not accomplish that. What sterile technique does is decrease the bacterial load to which an individual is exposed to a number that is low enough for their own immune system to manage. It shifts the odds in the favor of the patient or host. Quarantine is a similiar concept. It also allows us to discover any disease in our new fish before overtly challenging our existing stock with full on exposure. We must recognize, as you suggest, the limits of the quarantine process and not gain too much false confidence from it. I believe it is very helpful, but for the reasons you list, it has it's short-comings.
Cary

[shaunn]

3rd time poster, long time reader.

My idea of quarantine is just that... an idea. I usually just dump the fish together, but my sources are pretty good and I'm just a hobbyist.

The only thing that I will say if I was running a business is what are the risks involved. You mix fish with no quarantine, than you are at a higher risk. With airborne "Discus Plague" or what have you, the risk is low, the potential is real.

As for whether or not there is such thing as quarantine, everything is relative. Maybe you can't absolutely quarantine, but keeping separate nets is way lest riskier than sharing nets.

[Spices]

Very true indeed, Jaydoc. We have to maintain high sterile environment in order for us to have a more controlled level of bacteriums. In my own home I keep that same standards and found that no matter how much stress is made to keep 100% sterile environment, there's always that number of bacteriums decreasing the sterile environment. It's a balance that should be maintained like that found in the oceans.

Too much of one thing is not good and too less of the other weakens the system.

[Elcid]

I do not agree with this poster. Quarantine for the hobbiest is simply to have a separate tank for all new arrivals and to keep YOUR NEW DISCUS separate until you feel comfortable with them. There is no need for separate nets, pipes, etc. All you need is a bucket and a small hoze so you can transfer water out of your tank into the bucket....Use the same bucket to fill.

Don't believe all this BS.....The tank does not have to be big, but you do need to have a good cycled sponge and a heater that works. Usually I always have fish in my QT tank and I move them out every time I get new fish...

You guys are making this hobby into more than it really has to be...New fish need time to adjust to your water and recover from their travels without stress from other fish....Meds, there are plenty of posts...Don't treat unless you know what it is....90% of the time you will kill ur fish because ur medicating weak fish that can't take the meds!

THERE IS NO ESCUSE FOR NOT SEPARATING YOUR NEW ARRIVALS I DON'T CARE WHO YOU GET THEM FROM OR HOW MUCH THEY HAVE TREATED THE FISH BEFORE THEY SEND THEM TO YOU, BUT BETTER ASK BEFORE YOU BUY

Good Luck
Sandeep

[RichieE]

WOW Lauris. Your either a deep thinker or its been raining there for a week! That was very well thought out and written. I think the goal of quarantine is to narrow down the chances of passing problems from one group to another. As you point out no procedure is going to be perfect or foolproof. Acclimitization is probally what the end result is of most quarantine proceedures of the average hobbiest. Still I can't get a visual of the toothbrush/urine thing. Perhaps the men in your life need a little target practice? Rich

[shaunn]

I understand where Lauris is coming from. I think of it as the same as the pH arguments.... I gave up on controlling that and all the worrying. Some people are ardent backers on pH control (pH nazis). My fish are very happy now. Regime, regime, regime. No regime changes!

If your just a hobbyist and have one tank, how would you quarantine?

[Giniel]

I have a question or thought pertaining to this subject. If a breeder ,seller quarantines his stock and medicates them. Then you get them and medicate them as a just in case senerio. Doesn't that reduce the effectiveness of the medications we use today ?? Could that be why alot of the medications just do not work on certain diseases anymore?? Just a thought to go along with the whole quarantine procedure..
Debbie

[Dave C]

It's faulty logic. You can't guarantee a sterile environment therefore don't even attempt to lessen the transfer of pathogens. If you believe that you should also stop changing water since you can't remove all of the nasty stuff in your water as you are adding more nasties every time you fill the tank. Life is full of risks and ways of reducing those risks. Even if your methods don't provide you with 100% success they're still worth doing as they reduce the odds of catastrophe. No one would run across busy intersections thinking it's ok because even careful people get hit by cars. I don't run up and kiss people with bad colds because I know that just by being in the room I may get their cold. It just doesn't make sense. Quarantine is a sensible thing to do, even if you can't eliminate 100% of the risks.

[Elcid]

If your just a hobbyist and have one tank, how would you quarantine?

It's very easy really, before you buy ur second batch of discus, you buy yourself a small tank, a heater and a sponge filter and then cycle the tank before you place ur order :)

take care,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

when a toilet flushes, pressure sprays droplets into the air. It has been viewed using dyes etc. close the lid before flushing. the urine didn't jump out on it's own !!!

[raglanroad]

The logic is faulty to an extreme.
Take the case of the Altums, which experience a 90% die-off, it seems.
If you quarantine them for THEIR health, in RO, even though they have had a bad trip, and possible ammonia burns, with the correct conditions, and reduced pathogens from the filtered water, the fish LIVE, and are soon healthy enough to take on the bacteria they never saw in their native waters, in small amounts. Not in mega doses, straight to the community tank, where the pathogens are thousands of times more prevalent.This is a case of quarantine not only for your old stock, but for the new.
As to domestics, as others said, reduction is the goal. We always get a few salmonella, or E coli now and then, but our immune system can handle it. But a sudden influx of tons of them, and you get sick. T.B. is much more of a threat with closed air circulation, less than a certain number of C.F.M. exchange.
Taking your logic to the extreme, it is the same thing to dig in your garden as to dig up a corpse that died of smallpox.
But I do like your style of contoversy. It brings forth good info, as people will dig up info to debate. Would you also eat Discus sushi straight from the river?
P.S. you forgot about the flies.

[brewmaster15]

I think Cary raised some good points as to why QT is important and what function it serves. Most fish experts, pathologist, serious hobbyists and commercial breeders know what QT does, and have seen what happens when you don't QT.. Sure you may be fine just dumping fish together one time...2 times etc... But that X time you do and wipe out hundred or thousands of dollars of fish is really going to hurt.

QT is to give your new fish time to settle in. Its to give them a chance a to get used to your water, and its bacterias. It is to give them a Chance to start eating and not be immediately stressed by dominant tank mates (a condition that weakens Their immune systems) Its to treat for parasites if needed, so you don't introduce them to clean tanks...Its not for indescriminatingly treating them for bacterial problems they might have. Its a trial time...a time to use one of your fish as guinea pig, place it with the new ones and see what happens. Its insurance.,.. The best insurance you have.



In any husbandry system ..Qt of new arrivals plays a seriously important role. I know this from years in the hobby, and from working in a lab setting. The benefits out weigh the costs and time it takes.


I have seen Qts fail... and lost alot of money and fish... I have also seen them save my hatchery by isolating a serious problem so I could deal with it. I have poured gallons of bleach into QT tanks to protect my stock.

I have sold and bought many discus and always been an advocate of QT. If youi Buy a fish and the seller tells you they QT'd it already, thank them and then forget what they told you...Assume that fish is HOT and QT on your own. I don't care where the fish came from . The biggest mistake I hear is ..I get my fish from so and so all the time so I don't QT from them....bad mistake...it makes the assumption that so and so doesn't bring in new fish, and that their water's flora and fauna doesn't change.

I QT all my fish when I receive them for a minimum of 6 weeks before I will ever introduce them to my stock, then I test with one of my stock to be sure the new ones are not a problem. If I sell those fish...I suggest strongly that they should be QT'd again.

There is a such thing as a Quarantine...not in the absolute sense of the word, but in the common sense application of procedure.

where does QT fail... Some pathologies would get thru even the best QT... internal pathogens like TB(marine Tuberculosis...a freshwater ailment),The flagellates Cryptobia and Hexamita, externals like Flukes, oodinium and other protozoans.These can get thru. Which is why many with a large stake in their hobby or business have added laboratory screens to their normal QT.

-al

[Elcid]

Top 10 Reason I've broken QT before:

(1) The fish in my QT tank look unhappy, they'd be so much happier in my main tank.

(2) The fish in my QT tank aren't eating, if I put them in my main tank they would eat by watching others eat.

(3) I have to few fish in my QT tank so they are unhappy, if I put them in my main tank they would be much better.

(4) My new fish in my QT tank look unhappy because the water in my QT tank is bad, if I move the fish to my main tank they will quickly recover and be happy again.

(5) My new fish are so expensive, I don't mind loosing my other fish but these I need in my main tank.

(6) My new fish are so jumpy, they'd be so much more relaxed hanging out with my old fish.

(7) I really need to put that female in with my male right away. He lost her mate a few week ago.

(8) I need to separate the big guys from the little guyz in my QT tank.

(9) Okay I'm really struggling now, anyone else have any reasons ?

take care,
Sandeep

[lauris]

Not so sure that the logic of those that say my logic is faulty isn't faulty. I know it was a long post, but I never said that I didn't quarantine or that it shouldn't be practiced, just that it was not accomplishing separation and that there might be a different regimen possible.

Most of the replies seem to be in regards to making sure the new fish are not sick, but a lot of the "i'm killing all my discus" posts (which are rivalled in frequency only by the "i'm selling all my discus" posts) seem to concern a new batch swimming happily around while existing stock turns black and does the side stroke. I don't think quarantine is only to make sure that someone hasn't sold you sick fish, or that if problems result they are because the fish you bought were sick. That leads to the dynamic whereby sellers blame quarantine procedures (which they must know are not absolute and that most hobbyists cannot effectively follow) and buyers blame sellers for selling sick fish. The phenomenon whereby healthy fish mixed with healthy fish results in dead fish is the nightmare we all want to avoid. It would seem that there might be a better approach than try your best and keep your fingers crossed, although that appears to be the current state of affairs. It seems to be one of those things that everyone agrees works, but is not sure why, like throwing virgins into volcanoes--for awhile it might not erupt, but when it does it is a hell of a mess.

[raglanroad]

Six degrees of separation is applicable here. Of anyone in the world, you already know someone who knows someone, who knows that person. For instance, if you take the leader of a country; if you know any politician, they know the pres., who knows the other leader.2 degrees of separation. The same goes for any disease; most are separated from us by less than 3 degrees. It is entirely possible, though unlikely, that the next hand you shake just shook the hand of someone that came from an area with Hanta virus or SARS.
But still, will most infections be passed this way? No, they won't, and neither will fish worms, and other parasites.
So nobody can guarantee complete isolation, we are talking about REASONABLE CARE.
I even wash the faucets that have been contacted during caring for the isolated fish,and the regular stock too. and use paper towels. That's paranoid, and time consuming, but if the fish is special, I do it, or I don't buy the fish.
And by the way, regular liquid soap has been found by researchers to be preferable to the new cleansers for knocking germs off your hands. Oxidants do the final job.

[jimmyhat]

yeah im beginning to think just buying fish all at once and doseing tank all together the strong survive and thats the way it should be! If i find something i really like then its a dose all over again... :D

[shaunn]

Lauris-

You started a great discussion. Lately, I have been seeing all of these "Discus Plague" posts and at my workplace, Health and Human Services Department, they put up a very large poster on the spread of disease from ornamental fish to humans. Is it the water? Is it my new fish? Was my lot ofold fish a ticking time bomb?

Sandeep-

What if your significant other won't let you buy a second tank? If your not hardcore about it, than I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, the general aquarium keeping public pays way more for equipment than for their fish.

[JeffreyRichard]

There are two parrallel points being made here ...

1) Quarantine consept/practice is a good thing ... it provides a "buffer" between biosystems which HELPS prevent the spread of disease AND allows new arrivals r&r to become stronger and/or more comfortable with their new environment. This will REDUCE the risk of losses (both old and new).

2) Quaratining as practiced by almost all hobbyests and breeders is NOT absolute. Viruses and bacteria and other pathogins are more easily passed from one tank to another than most people realize ... there WILL be situations where a really nasty infection will affect every tank in a facility ... the best one can do is manage to that risk.

My real-life story ... I started breeding angelfish commercially in 1989 ... several years after the big wave of "Angelfish Plague" wiped out many breeders and temendously reduced the available stock in the marketplace. There was lot's of warning around about the Plague ... be careful where you get your stock, quarartine, etc ...

Of course, I accumulated stock over 2 years from many sources, and while I did NOT mix new stock with existing at a tank level, all my tanks were in the same room, shared syphons & food, etc.

Well, my hatchery was eventually affected ... I watch on weekend as fish in every tank I had (70+) broke down with clamped fins, huddling, white film, and death to most of the fry. This took place over 48 hours. Tried all kinds of treatments. Eventually I just let things play out ... after loosing 90 of the fry less than 60 days old but no more than 10% of my adult fish, things stablized. 4 moth's later my fish started breeding again. Fish looked good. However, any new fish I brought in broke down with the syptoms, and 90% of each batch of fry died or was grossly defected.

I tried an experiment ... set up a tank in an isolated coner of the hatchery at least 20 feet away from any other tank ... provided separate nets, syphons, food. Obtained some clean stock. and Yeah, this stock broke down after several weeks. Conclusions? pathogin was/is airborne (confirmed by Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd UFA)

There is just an inherent risk with livestock ... all we can do is the best we can ... and pray !

Jeff

[Elcid]

Sandeep-

What if your significant other won't let you buy a second tank? If your not hardcore about it, than I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, the general aquarium keeping public pays way more for equipment than for their fish.

This is a big problem but easily solved. You convince her that the tank will only be operational for 2 to 3 weeks tops when you get new fish in :)....otherwise it will be stored away...and then of course there is the financial angle, if your fish didn't die, you wouldn't be wasting money buying more and more fish....

Good luck
Sandeep

[shaunn]

Funny you mention that.... that's exactly what I am working on at this moment. I actually have 4 55 gallon tanks in my attic, but my problem is that I don't have any space to set it up.

Negotiations in progress.

Jeff-

Sorry to here about your loss. Has there been any official study of this phenomenon? Is this a seasonal thing? Is this common in other countries?

[mikeos]

totaly agree with the airborn nature of most of these problems, I have had tanks in diferent rooms of the same building...seperate kit etc & still had problems spread.

IMO QT is a no brainer, you do it or face the concequences, maybe not this time, but one day.

I would say there is no such beast as a sterile environment, anywhere, ever, if it has any livestock, water or air in it, it is not sterile. QT is not meant as such, it is principally a means of containment and control, a breathing space for the new arrivals, your current stock, and you to get caught up with each other, and to observe any obvious problems. Even then there are some problems that will always be carried over, in both directions.

When would I deliberately break QT? never, ever. I would euthanise the qt tank first, irregardless of it's contents or the cost.

[jimmyhat]

In my next pad im going to set up a tank on the balconey.. That will be the quaranteener... The rest inside,, With the proper use of the heaters i use they will keep the water to the proper temps.. Then later a plant tank for the balconey :D