spinning around

[shamsoo]

what could be possible cause to make juv of 2.5-3inch to spin and splashing on surface and later die, I lost about 10 discus in last 3 days, water TDS 450
ph 8.5 ammonia zero nitrite nil, temp 32 deg C, your help required
thanks

[Kagan]

Hi there,

how many fish do you have? What is the tank size? What is your filtering system? What is the water change schedule and how? Do they breathe heavily (how many gill beats per minute? Also do they use both gills? How is the stomach area of the fish [ like this => )( or => I I or like this => ( ) ?? ]

In addition to these questions, why is the temperature that high? I think it should be around 28-29 degrees celcius.

Also, PH is too high. Do you add anything to increase that PH to 8.5 ? 7-7.5 will be ok for growing fish.

Kagan

[shaunn]

How long have you had these fish?

[jeep]

Sorry for your loss Shamsoo...

Try filling out the info on this link and copy it and paste it in a reply on this thread...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=38545

Give us as much as possible and lets see if we can figure this out...

[shamsoo]

tank size is 150 gal, water is well water thats why TDS and ph is high, temp is high due to summer season, air temp is about 36-37 deg C, I have these fish since one month, breathing is normal and using both gills, gave them salt treatment but no luck

[shamsoo]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

fish use to spin round and round



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

turning dark, darting and splashing on surface




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.
Rock salt 7.5 table spoon per 10 gal for 5 days, later 2 drops p/gal formalin
no significant improvement




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
150 gal, 50/2-3 inch fish initially now left only 35


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

daily 50 % w/c bare bottom

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _32 deg c

- ph _8.5

- ammonia reading __nil__

- nitrite reading __nil__

- nitrate reading ___dont know_

- well water ____well water

- municipal water ____no

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
nothing added

[Kagan]

Sorry but I did not understand anything from your treatment schedule and the sequence of events.

1) Please write event by event.

2) How did you add the salt and when? What was the exact treatment?

3) How did you add the formalin? What was the exact treatment?

[Carol_Roberts]

We're reading similiar symtoms form many hobbyists in many locations. Usually only one ort wo fish in the tank are afffected. I don't know if it's a parasite or chemical in the water . . .

[shaunn]

Shamsoo-

Where do you live? How is your tank water cooler than the ambient air?

[shamsoo]

Shamsoo-

Where do you live? How is your tank water cooler than the ambient air?


I am in Karachi Pakistan, there is always difference of 3to 4 deg between air and water temp

[shamsoo]

We're reading similiar symtoms form many hobbyists in many locations. Usually only one ort wo fish in the tank are afffected. I don't know if it's a parasite or chemical in the water . . .

You are correct Carol all fish are not sick only one or two are affected intially other are eating well, later two more, today I found 3 dead in same tank

[Kagan]

You still did not write how you added the medications so we cannot comment on the treatment. Here, the method is important. Did you add salt every other day? Did you, at any point, stopped or changed the water change? How did you add the formalin? Was the formalin in the bottle all clear/transparent or did you ever see a white cloudy part at the bottom? In addition, the formalin at those temperatures is extremely dangerous since the oxygen amount will be very very low and in addition, the formalin will remove some of the oxygen.

Also, you wrote that you did not see any breathing problem or gill problem. So why you added formalin? It is not right in my opinion, especially not knowing the problem source and having that high temperature.

But anyway the spinning round round, darting around, dying is the result of a damage in nervous system. But the source of the problem is not known. I even saw this exact symptoms on a cat who died in 2 days. In addition, it MIGHT be a coincidence but I have seen the symptoms you have told only in the fish coming from eastern countries.

Other than these, the well water may have carried the parasites. My only recommendation is to inspect the dead ones under a microscope. That way you might find out the reason.

Of course these are my point of view. You are there with the problem.

btw, you can decrease the temperature a bit by using big computer fans on the top of the tank. They will take some of the heat away from the water surface and the temperature will drop a bit.

Kagan

[Barb Newell]

Hi, maybe high bioload? Are your filters all clean, any decomposing food stuck in any of them, wipe the sides and bottom of the tank down, clean airlines, heater cord, etc... make sure your tank is very clean. Increase daily water changes to 50% twice daily. Maybe flukes and gill infection, and high bioload.

Do you have methylene blue or Furan2?

Barb

[Spices]

Just for your information, I had my first overnight experience with an overstuffed Koi Angel. She or he was spinning (after I gave it fresh live blackworms). What I did was panicked! I put in two tablespoonfuls of Epsom Salt per gallon. I treated the entire tank. Everyone went darting but then they stopped darting. I took the one Koi Angel in a soft net and while in the tank water, I gently massaged the tummy area!! I saw plenty of poo this morning. As I write, I'm siphoning the poo and doing water change.

Point is: Now my Koi Angel is better. She or he is not spinning in a 360 degree circle. All gills are functioning.

*Angie*

[shaunn]

Angie-

Describe how you massaged the angels stomach..... one of my angels just puffed up like a ballon.

[Spices]

It is as I described it in the post.

Bring and keep the fish in a very soft nylon net, but don't raise it out of the tankwater.

While in the net and water, place your point finger and thumb around its body from the lower part of the gills (carefully not squeezing close the gills). Move in very gentle circles for a few seconds. At first the fish will try to jump out but will soon become relaxed as you massage the tummy.

I think one time is enough. Still the Angel is not fully eating but does make one or two attempt at getting flakes. I think it was the worms that caused the bloatedness. At other times it had a big belly but was making poo.

Hope this helps you.

*Angie*

[shaunn]

Thanks Angie. I just tried it. My Angel was flipping out when I first tried, but then it did calm down. That kind of scared me, though. We shall see what happens...

[shaunn]

Thanks Angie. I just tried it. My Angel was flipping out when I first tried, but then it did calm down. That kind of scared me, though. We shall see what happens...

[shamsoo]

things are better after third dose of formalin, will update
thanks to all

[Spices]

Hi Shaunn and Shamoo, Sorry to reply late....I forgot about this thread. :( I sure hope all is really better for now.

Just be sure to go to feed very lightly; don't hurry those beefy and foods filled with the protein as yet. Use light small fine pellets to begin feeding.

I have a jar of Bio-Blend Tropical by Marineland on hand. My guys like it alot. It helps their little digestive tract system. Right now I have everyone on this diet (sort of like a natural cleansing but gentle on the tummy).

Let us know how all goes.

P.S. No flake foods; only small tiny and soft pellet foods for now.
*Angie*

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Could be Whirling Disease,

Its being seen more and more in warm water fish

http://ia.essortment.com/whirlingdisease_rzmu.htm

[Spices]

Hi Cary, thanks for the article on whirling disease, and yes it is a possibility that Shaunn and Shamoo may have a problem with WD, which I think is incurable if I'm correct.

A*

[Kagan]

Could be Whirling Disease,

Its being seen more and more in warm water fish

http://ia.essortment.com/whirlingdisease_rzmu.htm
yes thats the one I was talking about previously. Thanks Cary!

I also did not hear of any treatment..

Kagan

[Spices]

In fact if it is whirling disease, the Parasite Clear tabs is one of the meds given to combat internal and external parasites (neurospiral ailments).

Also by Jungle Labs is the Anti-Parasite medicine which has substances to do the same as the Parasite Clear tabs.

*A*

[Spices]

Thanks Angie. I just tried it. My Angel was flipping out when I first tried, but then it did calm down. That kind of scared me, though. We shall see what happens...

Hey Shaunn,

Did your angel make it out alright? I sure hope yes!!

Here's an image of mine. Does yours stay at the heater away from everyone else? If yes, that means it is fine!! If there is no spinning but is eating small bits of food then all is well.

It's been about a good month for me and this Koi Angel is doing fine.

*Angie*
:sun: